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What is Salvation?

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posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 04:47 PM
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I decided to start a new thread based on some posts from "Why is Christianity so hated?" I thought it was different enough to warrant its own thread and I'm curious as to what you all think?

The question is, What is Salvation? Is there only one way to salvation?

From the traditional Christian point of view, salvation is from sin. Christ died as the ultimate sacrifice to forgive all sins and by accepting Him people are free from sin and allowed into heaven in the afterlife.

My hope is that this will trigger many questions. What is sin? Is there a heaven and hell, or are they mere metaphors? My intentions are to spark a good conversation- there is no right or wrong answers here, I'm just curious as to what everyone thinks.

For the record, I define sin as the illusion of separation from God. To clarify, my definition of God is the initial source and energy behind everything that exists, both that which has been discovered and all that remains to be discovered. In short, God ( for lack of a better word, I do not hold to the Christian view of God ) is infinite, without limit. Some may define this idea as a form of pantheism. So be it. The important part to me is that when someone says that God is good, they are also saying that God is NOT evil. This conradicts the idea of infinity, to me. God ( again, for lack of a better word ) contains both elements- contains all elements and ideas. The physical universe came into being ( or maybe it always existed ) so that God could have the physical experience of "all that exists". We are all part of God, every planet, star, atom, gamma ray, parrallel universe, etc, etc.

All that being said, I believe salvation is the awakening to the idea that we are not separate from God ( or whatever you want to call it, Allah, Zeuse, "All That Is", Nature, etc ). When one has this realization, one has peace of mind. This "peace of mind" is heaven. When one feels hopelessly lost and separate from any kind of foundation in the universe, this is hell.

Thoughts?




posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by Nyrossius Maxim
 



All metaphors...and not not very good ones at that.

And salvation can be found through free thinking, not through a questionable committment to a 'story'.




And after reading your OP, I can't tell if we agree or not on that. But I disagree that we are part of everything...we are a result of a very chaotic universe - nothing more, nothing less - unfortunately.

But I'll take what I can get...





content edit

[edit on 21-8-2009 by happygolucky]



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:02 PM
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reply to post by Nyrossius Maxim
 



The question is, What is Salvation? Is there only one way to salvation?


According to the Christian faith, Jesus is the only way. That is one of the reason's why Christianity is so hated- is because of the exclusivity. Even Jesus in the garden prior to His crucifixion asked if there was any other way for Salvation to be had, to remove 'the cup' from him.

The New Testament makes it very clear the only road to salvation is through Jesus. That's Christian theology. Many other religions teach differently. The main argument in Christianity is that if there was any other way we could obtain salvation then Jesus never would have had to have offered Himself as the sacrifice. He is the way. If not, we could have done something else. Good works, rituals, purification, etc.


What is sin?

For the record, I define sin as the illusion of separation from God.


I've heard it said that sin is anything that separates us from God or anything against the will of God. What sin basically is, is an act of disobedience against the absolute spiritual 'laws'. Contrast that with moral relativism.


Is there a heaven and hell, or are they mere metaphors?


I 100% believe there is a literal Heaven and am about 90% sure of a literal, eternal hell. To clarify: I believe Hell exists and is eternal and is literal but I'm not sure all of the lost throughout time suffer there eternally. We see people really do go there (the rich man from the story of Lazarus) and we see it is eternal for some (The AC, the false prophet, and those that receive the mark). But I'm not sure if it's eternal for all time.

It does intrigue me that many in the early church before the Bible was officially codified believed in nihilism. So some go there and for eternity but I'm not sure if it's everyone who willfully has denied Christ.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:30 PM
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Jesus did say, i am one with the father
because the father is one, and there is none else
then he became salvation by the mental cross
(not the wooden cross, that was a lesson, nothing more,
it is hidden for a reason, not everyone can understand this)
by giving he received the knowledge that sets free
sonship
and that is : give so much freedom that you will receive it too
set god free, so god can set himself free, you
it is in mind and logic.

Jesus did not speak from his own name first
he spoke from a father that is one
life, truth

That is the gospel
relgion doesnt get it

salvation is being one with god,
all the prophets became glorified when they ended their lifes
jesus came back after glorification
and elijah, the function will come back too (sun)
folowing the angels (moon)

so what was jesus offer ?
after glorification he took the cross as a return offering,
but he became father, salvation, BEFORE the cross
the cross was to teach us, this he did freely.
he was son before salvation, before glorification.
father after it, one with life, in logic and heart, because they are one.

It will happen again.

not all the offers were fulfilled.


[edit on 21-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]

[edit on 21-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]

[edit on 21-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by happygolucky
 


From a practical point of view, and from what science tells us, the universe is chaos. Because I believe in a multidimensional universe, the idea of chaos is practical to me, however, deep down inside, I believe everything happens for a reason- not that we'll ever know that reason!


And just to throw this one out there as well, I think the question of fate vs. free will is all a matter of perspective.

I am definitely a supporter of free-thinking, that's why I accept everybody's views without necessarilly agreeing with them. As long as individuals think for themselves and don't submit to fear-based doctrines and philosophies then I think we're making progress.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:41 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


My main problem with the Christian idea of Hell is that the Bible describes a physical place with physical fire and brimstone. If our souls are spiritual how would a physical place with physical pain be a threat?

As far as Jesus being the only way, what about folks who live good, selfless lives but are not familiar with Jesus and Christianity? Do they burn in hell?

And one more question, to test the waters
, what about ET's? Did Jesus die for them?



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:42 PM
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Great thread. Star and flag for you. I feel you are on the right track with your description of what God is. Personally, I dont beleive that the mind of man can really conceive, nor his language describe God, however, 'All That Is' probably will be the closest we'll get to it.

I dont agree that Jesus died to save us. This is a con. To say that we are already forgiven our sins is a cop out that removes all responsibility from everyone for any and all acts of recklessness or wanton criminality. The act of crucifiction was a symbolic act to depict the nature of all humanity whose true spiritual nature is crucified on the cross of flesh of the body. It is meant to show that we must come down off our cross of flesh (or to overcome nature) to rise into the glory of our true spiritual nature.

Jesus did not come to save us by dieing on the cross. He came to show us how to save ourselves by rebalancing our inner selves (our male and female aspects) or (to put Adam and Eve back together again) in the one body.

This is the true meaning of salvation. When you truely understand WHAT you are, and how to restore yourself to your true state.

Sin is merely a spiritual mistake. The ORIGINAL sin was the mistake by Adam and Eve to see themselves as separate beings instead of the two equal parts of one whole. Thus they remained apart in their ignorance of their true state. This is also the state of every human who has ever walked the earth. We also have failed the Adam and Eve test and see ourselves as separate from the other aspect of our true selves.

If you a born into a male body, your male aspect dominates your female aspect. If female, your male side is suppressed. Thus the human is out of balance.

ALL of unbalanced nature is subject to death and decay.

This is the attraction of the sexes. If you are in a male body, you want to join or unite with a female body and visa versa. This brings temporary relief and fleeting pleasure, but the need continues. The ONLY perfect relationship or marriage is when we rebalance ourselves perfectly within ourselves and experience the pure happiness and bliss of perfection.

The perfected being is a perfectly balanced, sexless, immortal one who by balancing his two aspects of self has raised the physical body to a state of permanance beyond nature and death.

This was the state of Jesus and others of history who completed the Great Work and became immortals.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:43 PM
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the cross is shared,
if you want to become one,
you take the same cross as jesus,
because he is ONE,
so YOU take (one) CROSS

its a christian lie, that believers do not take a cross
ask all those in truth well meaning christians how much
cross they bare, or anyone who tries to be good,
and cares, even when not believing in god,
care means cross.

and believers is everyone who searches truth,
before they are truth, before they see it
including atheists

truth is one, so searching truth means caring.

that is the gospel.

[edit on 21-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:45 PM
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reply to post by pasttheclouds
 


If I read you correctly, you are advocating the idea that the Biblical description of salvation is symbolic, metaphoric?

I tend to agree. I think if you could strip away all the linguistic and cultural differences most of the world's religions are trying to communicate the same idea.

I'm most fascinated by eastern mysticism: taoism and zen buddhism. Seek answers within.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:49 PM
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Salvation is not forced, it will be your choice.
Those in hell, choose to be there.
You see all these born again Christians running around trying to save people?
They think it will be to late, with God, it is never to late.
But these people are angels, trying to show you before it is to late.
They are just dedicated, I have to love them.
That's how much they love God.
Have you got children?Remember the feeling you got when your first child was born?
When your first love left you or your Mum or Dad or sibling died?
You know that love you have for your children, that feeling inside you, those Butterfly's?
That is how God loves you, but times infinity.
You will see salvation, in some way, it will come you will see it.
If you choose not to have it then its just the same.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:50 PM
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Ya know, it's really funny to me how many of us just can't stand having to answer to anyone or anything bigger than ourselves. So what we do is figure out all kinds of ways not to believe that there was(is) a Creator, who demands of us..things, and wants from us what apparently many don't want to give...
Namely...companionship(family). It's so mind boggling that it is hard to comprehend what God would want us for.

For me it just makes sense!



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:53 PM
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yes, symbolic,
but real,

look, this is so logic that people will
kill me the day i explain them
the bible is totally true,
but nobody understand it,
except those that love,
but even they are unsure,
about the meanings,

it is very simple, the basics...

torah states:
god is one, everything

LAW: love god = love everything
how ? seeing it = repenting
forgiving = understanding
you justify god

the day you justified everything, you are god, father
before this you are son
by setting free, everything, you give and give and give

this is what will happen,
the religions will see the elijah as false prophet
trying to crucify him
when he is an angel, bringing heaven on earth
for the church = believers in TRUTH, not christians or muslims
as religion kind

the sun will start to shine, but keep its light,
and be darkened

the moon (the angels) will turn red

this is eclipse

bible is perfect,
but hidden for reasons
that explination will only come
for those that carry cross of care

jonathan.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:56 PM
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reply to post by CaptainCaveMan
 



christians try to do their best,
they are stuck in something they do not understand
but they are not the only ones,
every person on this earth is still stuck
so are you sure it wouldnt make you more happy,
when you understand it, and have peace ?;
you do not want
to try to understand them ?

they were needed,
because of what they did wrong,
truth is here now.
they suffered for us,
dont think it is easy to be a well trying christian
they suffer.

ignoring christians are as bad as ignoring people
of other branches.

but children learn, and they do wrong, but come back home.



[edit on 21-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:56 PM
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Salvation is a concept that occurs in Christianity, and nowhere else. The theory is that God created the world, and was almost immediately outsmarted by two naked human beings and a talking snake. The humans ate a fruit that God told them not to eat, and thus incurred "sin".

The problem with this is that Adam and Eve could not have known what sin was, until they ate the fruit. The fruit was from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil (*NOT* the "Tree of Knowledge"; Knowledge of Good and Evil). So how did they know it was bad to disobey God, before they ate the fruit? Anyway, God gets mad at the humans He created, and kicks them out of the garden. Now, because they've "sinned", they have to be "saved" - but they can't get saved until Jesus comes along. So Jesus comes along and "saves" everyone who wants it. Everyone else burns forever in eternal, neverending torment that somehow a loving God manages to create or permit. If you aren't "saved", you are punished eternally with no hope of ever finding peace or comfort. Not ever, forever and ever, without end.

Some will say that God didn't *create* Hell, He simply allowed it, because He permitted Satan to make it. Well, why didn't He stop Satan? Because He loves Satan, too. But didn't you guys see the movie, "Old Yeller"? It's about a dog that does wonderful things, but gets rabies. In the end, they had to shoot it. I never got over that movie. But seriously, if you've got some sort of rabid dangerous animal, you shoot it, put it out of its (and your) misery.

So anyway, if you don't believe what Christians tell you to believe, you burn in Hell forever, without any hope of it stopping some day. But if you believe what they tell you to believe, then you can hope that you'll be among the "saved" and won't go to Hell. I suppose God will have to give you a lobotomy if you go to Heaven, so you won't think about your family and loved ones who didn't make it and who are suffering eternally. So, if any of your loved ones are kind of bad, God will wipe them from your memory so you don't feel bad about them existing in neverending torment. Isn't that convenient?

Or maybe He won't, but somehow you'll be OK with your loved ones eternally screaming in agony. Maybe somehow you'll figure, "Hey, they deserved it, the suckers". I don't know.

All I know is, you better believe what those Christians tell you to believe, or you'll fry forever.

Unfortunately, Christians don't actually agree on what they're supposed to believe, so chances are you'll guess wrong and wind up frying anyway. It's kind of like playing the lottery, only the payoff lasts forever.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 05:57 PM
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reply to post by triune
 


Well said! And thank you for your contribution.

I only speak in Christian terms because of my upbringing and as a point of reference. I do not claim Christianity myself and I do not believe the Bible is the inerrant Word of God. I am fascinated by the different ways the Christian mythos can be used to demonstrate larger spiritual ideas.

Do you think there was an actual Adam and Eve and Garden of Eden, or were all these merely metaphors?



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 06:00 PM
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reply to post by chiron613
 



what you think buddha teached us ?
what do you think mohammed teached us ?
what do you think truth and logic teaches us ?

salvation is logic and normal
one day you will be free,

there is no hell
logic is functional to itself,
hell is not functional
death is
you join truth or you ignore truth
choice.

but everybody has his own time,
god does not excpect us to see before it is meant like this
we only have to try.



[edit on 21-8-2009 by pasttheclouds]



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 06:04 PM
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reply to post by dakota1s2
 


I don't really think the Creator "demands" anything of us. I believe this is the basic flaw of organized religion. The idea of Unconditional Love means that there are no conditions, no requirements: God, All That Is, the Creator, the Universe does not demand anything of us, because even when humans behave in an evil manner they are simply being part of the overall balance of creation. With good there must be evil. With creation there must be destruction.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 06:18 PM
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First of all, "sin" is not something you do, or think, or anything like that. Study the origin of words. "Sin" was an Ancient Babylonian Moon God, son of Enlil. He has a beard of Lapis Lazuli and rides a winged bull. His consort is Ningal. He is the father of Shamash. He does not answer Gilgamesh's plea to restore Enkidu to life. So, we are, again, speaking of the Annunnaki here. www.answers.com...
Seems like we always come back to the Annunnaki when speaking of the Gods, and Goddesses, "Those Who From Heaven To Earth Came." Aliens, in modern terminology.

Now let's have a look at the word "salvation."
dictionary.reference.com...
1. the act of saving or protecting from harm, risk, loss, destruction, etc.
2. the state of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc.
3. a source, cause, or means of being saved or protected from harm, risk, etc.
4. Theology. deliverance from the power and penalty of sin; redemption.

Osiris' followers found salvation in his rebirth. Jesus brought salvation. Osiris brought salvation 1,400 years earlier. Quoting the Goddess Isis:

" I have come with solace and aid. Away then with tears. Cease to moan. Send sorrow fleeing. Soon through my providence shall the sun of your salvation rise." [Apuleius, Metamorphoses 11.5]

www.medmalexperts.com...

So, Salvation was not an original Christian idea, now was it? I have often asked those who come to save my soul, "what exactly are you trying to save me from?" to which they always answer, "from Hell."


A number of distinct words and concepts in the original Hebrew and Greek that the Bible was written in were all translated into the single English word hell, from the Teutonic word ‘hel’ which meant ‘to cover’ and later was the name of the Norse goddess of the underworld and later of the underworld itself. In Middle English the word “hell” meant merely to cover or conceal and was thus a fitting translation for what was called Hades in Greek and Sheol in Hebrew. It only came to refer exclusively to a place of eternal torment in the English language later.

Sheol
This is the word in the original Hebrew that is sometimes translated as hell. Judaism did not originally have an idea of an immortal soul that survived death—this was a pagan concept. The original Jewish belief was one of “ashes to ashes and dust to dust.” Although Sheol later evolved into a type of shadowy afterlife in some circles influenced by Greek spirituality, originally the term Sheol meant merely the grave. The good and bad alike go here. The King James Version of the Bible translates the “Old Testament” word Sheol 31 times as hell, 31 times as grave, and 3 times as pit. While it evolved to serve different purposes, in its original context the word refers to the state of nonexistence in death.

bendench.blogspot.com...

For my own self, Heaven and Hell are relative terms, places in the mind of men only, and not real, physical places that one's Spirit actually goes to for whatever "time," again, a relative term, goes to either one. The priestly "protection racket" required the criminalizing of the whole of humanity through the doctrine of Sin. I believe it is up to the individual to save themselves, and not from hellfire and brimstone, but from something much worse, being trapped in this third dimensional world of materialism and greed. Just my two cents.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 06:19 PM
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reply to post by chiron613
 


Great response! I was hoping someone would come with that angle and I agree as well. Only one clarification on my question of salvation: what about "enlightenment" and "nirvanna"? To me these are other forms of "salvation". I realize that it isn't a strict definition, but for the sake of conversation...


I tend to think most Christians fear this idea of hell more than actually want to lead a good life. Just my opinion, I know. But surely an all loving God won't punish people who sincerely try to do good, regardless of their beliefs. If God exists, and this God is all loving, and someone dies after living a good life and leaving a positive impact on the world but was not convinced of the existence of this God, will God be offended that they didn't believe? The idea just sounds kind of silly to me. Religions tend to give this perfect infinite creator vey imperfect and human attitudes.



posted on Aug, 21 2009 @ 06:31 PM
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reply to post by autowrench
 


Thanks, and you're response is worth much more than 2 cents!

Christianity definitely was not the originator of these ideas, thanks for the references. And it does seem to come back to the Annunaki again and again. So, were we visited by ET's posing as gods?

I think so. I think they left after establishing what I call the Holy Trinity of control: religion, government, and economics. This is just a theory, of course, but it makes sense to me. Whenever I hear Christian's talking about the second coming I always want to tell them that they'd better be ready for an Alien invasion!



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