Masons and conspiracy theories

so now we are down to name calling.

I thought you masons where supposed to hold high standards.


911 has tarnished the image of muslims.
peodophilia has tarnished the rep of christians
Jews as a whole are tarnished for their treatment of the palastinians
white men as a whole are tarnished and carry a stigma because of the slavery history
Black africans may be looked at as primitive and barbaric with their tough governmental tactics
I am a nazi because of your perceptions, your point of view, eye of the beholder.

My point about masons being tarnished by the shooting is in the reply !


[edit on 23-2-2005 by Qui Bono]

Originally posted by Qui Bono
so now we are down to name calling.

I thought you masons where supposed to hold high standards.


911 has tarnished the image of muslims.
peodophilia has tarnished the rep of christians
Jews as a whole are tarnished for their treatment of the palastinians
white men as a whole are tarnished and carry a stigma because of the slavery history
Black africans may be looked at as primitive and barbaric with their tough governmental tactics
I am a nazi because of your perceptions, your point of view, eye of the beholder.

My point about masons being tarnished by the shooting is in the reply !

There is no name-calling there. I'm merely illustrating how your point of view falls in line with the view of ignorance.
The groups above are tarnished because of ignorance. They are labelled because a false perception has been created around them. Muslims are no more guilty of terrorism than Christians are of pedophilia, but because the media homes in on the failings of a few and generates it as a failing of the whole, the onlooker is presented with a point of view that all must be guilty. In a lot of cases the onlooker will swallow that point of view because he is either too lazy, too stupid or too prejudiced to go search for the truth.

I don't believe for one moment that you are a Nazi. Yet your swallowing of propaganda is exactly what the German people did during Hitler's reign so the comparison is actually viable.
Labelling one group of people is ignorant. There are many individuals that make up any group. In this case, these individuals may have been Freemasons but they were not conducting a masonic ceremony - whatever lies the media may claim to the contrary.
It is your right to believe what you want. But when you repeat those lies and purport them to be truth, it doesn't matter how many people like Freudling bleat on about it, you are going to come under attack by those defending the truth. I know for a fact, that the shooting in New York was not a part of Freemasonry. There is not one single piece of doubt in my mind. I'm a Freemason and I know a fair bit about the Order of which I am a member. To tell me that what happened is Freemasonry when I know full well that it isn't is just plain stupid.

dude you seem to think those examples of tarnished people i put in that post was my opinion. You seem to think you know me pretty well, but i never implied those where my opinions.

I dont think any of that, like osama is going to be stupid enough to unleash the leviathan called the U.S. military on all arab nations, (iran war is heating up now) by orchestrating 911.

Its common knowledge amongst afgansistanis that he is a cia asset, but the media over here distorts that, turns him into some boogyman.

So to say i swallow propaganda exactly like some nazi is wrong.

Id just like to state that im way against the war in iraq or anywhere else under this so called mandated war on terror.

Most people are talking about these things and are really starting to distrust mainstream media.

Why do you think that alternate news is the second biggest thing on the net.
People are dissalusioned by mainstream, especialy since 911.

In reguards to the shooting, just because you say you "know" someone doesnt prove anything to me, hell i could say i know a mason who uses guns in rituals to scare people, and would you believe me ?

doubt it.

Besides that as i said the news reported that it happened at a lodge by masons. doesnt matter to me if its "sanctioned" or not. its a damn shooting, a fatal one. thats pretty bad.

Dude im pretty sure the news interviewed all points of view for that piece, it was objective.



[edit on 23-2-2005 by Qui Bono]

Originally posted by Qui Bono
dude you seem to think those examples of tarnished people i put in that post was my opinion. You seem to think you know me pretty well, but i never implied those where my opinions.

I don't pretend to know you and what I posted was to show you how damaging a generalisation can be if it is based on ignorance. You made the claim that because these guys were Freemasons, Freemasonry must be guilty. My examples were to show you how generalisations can lump a whole group of people under one negative banner.

And I don't get your drift exactly. You don't trust the media but in this case they've got it right about Freemasonry in the NY incident?
Come on dude. You can't have it both ways.

ya reckon, this is a pretty simple contained incedent.
No one denied anything, so why are the washington times lying about it.

Thats what your doing, calling them liars.

What possible motive would they have to lie or fabricate anything said in that article ?

Maybe i should email the editor and ask him if the times still stand by the story.


Like there have been a lot of mainstream media about 911 both sides of the coin, No Prior Knowledge Vs Prior Knoledge, Bin Laden CIA asset/Bin laden not a cia asset.

That i can understand to be confused about, and maybe these organizations have an agenda for playing out this little infowar, but not in some isolated contained incedent.

Doesnt make sence for the times to lie or exaggerate.

Originally posted by Leveller

You made the claim that because these guys were Freemasons, Freemasonry must be guilty. My examples were to show you how generalisations can lump a whole group of people under one negative banner.

I didnt really say that at all, all i said was that it tarnished the image of masons, and the implication was that it could make people assume, that this stuff goes on a biit

Originally posted by Qui Bono
ya reckon, this is a pretty simple contained incedent.
No one denied anything, so why are the washington times lying about it.

Doesnt make sence for the times to lie or exaggerate.

What they have done is put a spin on the story to look like this incident was part of what we generally term "Freemasonry". The simple fact is that this wasn't "Freemasonry". It was a group of people, who although they themselves may have been Freemasons, were taking part in a private club that was nothing to do with regular Freemasonry.
And why do the newspapers put this spin in? Well, they've got to sell papers. And nothing sells a paper like a good conspiracy.

You are correct that it tarnishes Freemasonry in some people's eyes. But those people are believing what they are getting from a twisted source. That doesn't make it right. That doesn't justify prejudice.

Fellow craft or no fellow craft, might aswell be masons, thats the luxery of the profane.

Your own words. And my reply is "No. That's the luxury of the ignorant. It's the luxury of someone who will believe a spoonfed newspaper story without checking the facts".
Freemasons were pretty pissed off when this incident happened for two reasons.
a) A man died.
b) The newspapers would have a field day and try to state that the incident was Freemasonry when it wasn't - which is exactly what happened.
We knew that the incident would tarnish Freemasonry because we knew that the media would spin it and we knew that people would automatically assume that their spin was truth.



[edit on 23-2-2005 by Leveller]

Originally posted by freudling
As for the Mason murder at that ritual in NY, which was supposedly something detached from Freemasonary.

To begin with, it wasn't a "murder", it was a stupid, imbecile, childish prank that went way wrong.

look at the facts, the ritual took place inside the basement of a Masonic Lodge, by Freemasons, and has been called the "Fellowship Club". The Masons claim that it is a club within Masonary and not connected in any way. What is laughable is that the second degree in Masonary is called the "Fellow craft." Here is a statement contradicting the "Fellowship Club" by Masonic Senior Deacon Steve Mayo:

Mr. Mayo said the Monday night ceremony [the death] was an initiation into the Fellow Craft, which is the second degree within the multilevel Masonic system.

This is not true. The initiation was into a group called the "Fellow Craft Club". The Club and its initiation ritual, which solely consisted of pranks, was invented and formed by members of that particular Lodge. This group was not an official Masonic organization, and was not recognized by the Grand Lodge. There are no guns involved in any Masonic degree; the degrees were written before guns were even invented.

This subject was already hashed to death here on ATS when the incident occured a year ago.

You're looking at word play and you're twisting it to suit your needs. I couldn't give a crap how the paper reported the Deacon's words. The fact is that this was an organisation acting outside of the realms of Freemasonry.

I have not twisted anything and you know it.

I now consider you to be nothing more than a troll. Your inference that this woman is "guilty" because she refuses to address a question only goes to further show your ignorance.

Wow, great logic, like I actually said she was guilty. And, as for the Misquote about the Senior Deacon: How do you know it was a misquote? How do you know it was an isolated incident? Who are you, Leveller? Oh right, the almighty has spoken, and if some poster on an internet forum says that a news article misquoted and twisted something, then it must be the case! You have not verified anything you have said. "I know I am 100% right." LOL. Further, and, forgive common sense here, but "Fellow Craft Club" and "Fellow Craft" do not appear to be completely separate things. But maybe you can explain the difference to us, Leveller. What is the Fellow Craft Club? How is it completely unrelated to Freemasonary? Why did Eid have a loaded gun in the first place? Why did the witnesses contradict Mayo's pistol remarks?


Answer me this - The FellowCraft degree is the same the world over. How do you explain the use of guns in a Masonic degree when in my country, it's illegal to even possess them?

Ask Eid, Mayo and the witnesses, since the witnesses have seen the blank firing ritual for years.

Sure there are some differences to ceremonies

So now they are not the "same", but there are some differences.

but I'm pretty sure that this would be the sort of difference that would get noticed, don't you? So how do you explain the use of guns where elsewhere there aren't any - nor any records of them being used?

I don't want to degrade you, but I don't think you actually are able to make such a statement. Did you research all the avalaible records? Moreover, it is obvious that if somebody hadn't have been killed, we wouldn't know about the blank firing ritual, right. Eid f*cked up.


Let's say that I am a member of the "American Revolutionary War Club". Does that mean that I'm a genuine soldier of the Revolution?
Of course it bloody doesn't.

What on earth is this analogy supposed to do? OK, by your analogy, people who are members of the ARWC are not necessarily soldiers of the Revolution. However, those involved in the said incident are admitted Freemasons.

Answer me this - The FellowCraft degree is the same the world over. How do you explain the use of guns in a Masonic degree when in my country, it's illegal to even possess them?

There are no guns used in the Fellow Craft, or any other Masonic degree, anywhere. This initiation was into a group that called themselves the "Fellow Craft Club". They wrote their own initiation ritual, which was nothing but pranks similar to those in college frats. This was NOT a Masonic ritual, it was a ritual written by guys who were members of that particular Lodge.

Originally posted by freudling
You're looking at word play and you're twisting it to suit your needs. I couldn't give a crap how the paper reported the Deacon's words. The fact is that this was an organisation acting outside of the realms of Freemasonry.

I have not twisted anything and you know it.

I beg to differ. You've taken the spin and run with it some more.

I now consider you to be nothing more than a troll. Your inference that this woman is "guilty" because she refuses to address a question only goes to further show your ignorance.

Wow, great logic, like I actually said she was guilty.

Let's take a look at what you actually did say shall we?

"She then went on to say she was not prepared to disclose if she were a member of any organisation and gave Mr Ogg leave to appeal her decision to a higher court."

"What a joke. Obviously she is hiding something"

Hmmm. Sure you didn't.

And, as for the Misquote about the Senior Deacon: How do you know it was a misquote? How do you know it was an isolated incident?

Don't you think it would have made the papers elsewhere?

Who are you, Leveller?

Obviously somebody who knows a lot more about what went on than you do.

Further, and, forgive common sense here, but "Fellow Craft Club" and "Fellow Craft" do not appear to be completely separate things. But maybe you can explain the difference to us, Leveller. What is the Fellow Craft Club? How is it completely unrelated to Freemasonary? Why did Eid have a loaded gun in the first place? Why did the witnesses contradict Mayo's pistol remarks?

It's already been explained time and time again that this was a private club that these guys had set up for themselves outside Freemasonry. Why did they have a loaded gun? Well why do a lot of people carry guns in the US? The loaded gun wasn't the one that should have been used in their club anyway - they had one loaded with blanks and the old man confused them.

Answer me this - The FellowCraft degree is the same the world over. How do you explain the use of guns in a Masonic degree when in my country, it's illegal to even possess them?

Ask Eid, Mayo and the witnesses, since the witnesses have seen the blank firing ritual for years.

No. The answer is that they're not used in Masonic degrees the world over. They were used in this club because it was not a Masonic degree.

Sure there are some differences to ceremonies

So now they are not the "same", but there are some differences.

Yes there are minor differences. But wouldn't you say that someone firing a gun at tin cans is a big difference if nobody else does it?
It would also have been quite nice if you hadn't edited my words. What I actually said was - Sure there are some differences to ceremonies, but I'm pretty sure that this would be the sort of difference that would get noticed, don't you?
Heh!! And you don't twist words?

but I'm pretty sure that this would be the sort of difference that would get noticed, don't you? So how do you explain the use of guns where elsewhere there aren't any - nor any records of them being used?

I don't want to degrade you, but I don't think you actually are able to make such a statement. Did you research all the avalaible records? Moreover, it is obvious that if somebody hadn't have been killed, we wouldn't know about the blank firing ritual, right. Eid f*cked up.

If guns were used in Masonic ritual, we would have heard about it. Masonic ritual is open to all other Freemasons. The reason we didn't hear about this was because it was a private club. Trawl the net bud. Do you honestly think that we could keep the use of guns quiet in our rituals? Don't you think the conspiracy theorists would have had a field day with such a concept? Yet there were no theories that we use guns in Lodges until this incident.

Hey dude. Jump on the ignorance bandwagon. You're welcome to it. Just don't get your tutu caught in the wheel spokes.

Let's say that I am a member of the "American Revolutionary War Club". Does that mean that I'm a genuine soldier of the Revolution?
Of course it bloody doesn't.

What on earth is this analogy supposed to do? OK, by your analogy, people who are members of the ARWC are not necessarily soldiers of the Revolution. However, those involved in the said incident are admitted Freemasons.

The analogy was to show that they weren't acting as Freemasons. So they might have been playing at being soldiers but they weren't doing it within the confines and regulations of the army.




[edit on 23-2-2005 by Leveller]

Only thing, when you factor in common sense,

there is no such thing as common sense. if there was all would have it.

Most people are talking about these things and are really starting to distrust mainstream media.

and there are some of us that started that about the same time as John Kerry
was lieing to congress.

You made the claim that because these guys were Freemasons, Freemasonry must be guilty

kind of like all satanists are self serving right?

Thats what your doing, calling them liars.

first rule of journalism: if you cant distort it , dont report it.

What possible motive would they have to lie or fabricate anything said in that article ?

does the term SALES ring a bell?

Why did the witnesses contradict Mayo's pistol remarks?

the most unreliable source of evidence is an eyewitness.

I appreciate your discourse on the matter, and it has helped. However, everything you guys have retorted with doesn't help Eid's or the Freemasons case. You say things like, "This has been discussed over and over." "I know more than you." Well, I don't have to remind you of your words. You have Mayo's comments to contend with and witness reports, saying the blank firing ritual goes back over 70 years. You also have not, in any way, explained what the "Fellow Craft Club" is, and, how it differs from the "Fellow Craft." The "Fellow Craft Club is not mentioned in the Washington Times article, and Mayo doesn't mention it either. Unless you have evidence, rather than just broad sweeping statements with nothing to substantiate them with, like, "Mayo was misquoted!", this discussion is over.

I will post this yet again for you -

www.masonicinfo.com...

Take the time to read it if you genuinely want to understand the subject.

You can also find other genuine information here -

www.msana.com...

here -

members.aol.com...


You can find a news story that refutes the FellowCraft Club as being part of regular Freemasonry here -

web.mit.edu...


Incidentally. The Grandmaster of New York refuted the news statement that the FellowCraft club was part of the FellowCraft Degree.



[edit on 23-2-2005 by Leveller]

Originally posted by freudling
You say things like, "This has been discussed over and over." "I know more than you." Well, I don't have to remind you of your words. You have Mayo's comments to contend with and witness reports, saying the blank firing ritual goes back over 70 years.

I said that this has been discussed before so that you could run an ATS search and see all the original postings on it. There you will find the news links that describe the tragedy.

You also have not, in any way, explained what the "Fellow Craft Club" is, and, how it differs from the "Fellow Craft."

Fellow Craft is the Second Degree of Masonry. The initiation ritual of this degree is philosophical, and the majority of the ceremony consists of a historical lecture on the Seven Liberal Arts and Sciences. This ritual has been in use for at least 3 centuries, and probably longer with earlier variations.

The "Fellow Craft Club" was a club formed by members of Southside Lodge # 493 in New York. Its members would meet several times per week for the purpose of playing poker. They wrote their own initiation ritual, which was just a few pranks. One of them consisted of seating the candidate in a chair, showing him a gun, blindfolding him, and handing him a long board with tin cans on top. The guy with the gun would then stand about ten yards from him and fire blanks, while a guy behind him knocked over the cans with a stick.

At this particular meeting, the guy doing the shooting had two guns: one full of blanks and one loaded. He was in his 80's, and told police that he did not remember that he had the other gun with him (he was licensed to carry it). He pulled the wrong gun, and shot the other Brother in the head, killing him instantly.

The members of the club immediately called the police. The shooter was arrested and charged with involuntary manslaughter. The Grand Lodge of New York suspended the Lodge's charter, and expelled the members of the Fellow Craft who had participated.

The "Fellow Craft Club is not mentioned in the Washington Times article, and Mayo doesn't mention it either. Unless you have evidence, rather than just broad sweeping statements with nothing to substantiate them with, like, "Mayo was misquoted!", this discussion is over.

Here is the Grand Master of New York's official statement on the matter:

masonicblog.com...

Here is a news article released at the time it happened, which differentiates the Fellow Craft from Masonry:

web.mit.edu...

Thanks for those links, I appreciate it. I will have a read through. Hopefully it sheds light on Mayo's comments and witness testimony.

Originally posted by freudling
Thanks for those links, I appreciate it. I will have a read through. Hopefully it sheds light on Mayo's comments and witness testimony.

The article originally linked to says:

"Mr. Mayo said the Monday night ceremony was an initiation into the Fellow Craft, which is the second degree within the multilevel Masonic system."

I can only assume that the reporter who interviewed Brother Mayo misunderstood him, as Mayo is not here directly quoted. The Fellow Craft Degree is indeed the Second Degree of Masonry, and the fact that name of the "Fellow Craft Club" is identical to the degree is probably confusing to non-Masons who have never witnessed the Masonic Degree by that name.

In all likelihood, Brother Mayo told the reporter that the incident occured during an initiation to the Fellow Craft Club, to which the reporter erroneously concluded was the same thing as the Fellow Craft Degree (the statement that Fellow Craft is the Second Degree is not attributed above to Mayo, but is an addendum).

Now, I cannot dishonor my word by violating my obligation to keep Masonic rituals private; but there have been others who have done so, and various Fellow Craft rituals have been in print for 3 centuries. They can also be read on several websites. In none of these is there ever a mention or use of firearms, whether real or imaginary, and no pranks are involved in Masonic initiation.

One thing that we must keep in mind too, is who "scooped" this story. If memory serves me correctly it was the New York Times that first broke this story before it was syndicated by the Associated Press.

Need I remind everyone how "honorable" the NY Times is when it comes to reporting. Jayson Blair comes to mind... just type in New York Times Fraud into google and see the results. There is even a book on the subject:

www.amazon.com...

So what all this rambling means....I don't hold too much faith in the NY Times for printing factual information.

The important thing to notice is a bunch of Freemasons were trying to create some 'atmosphere' whether it was an official ritual, or a bunch of guys trying to come up with their own ritual. the point if Freemasonry still taught them everything EVERYTHING they know about Ritual.

So what did Freemasonry teach them, that they would feel legitimate fear was necessary for an initiation?

Does Freemasonry make you yearn for the extraordinary? Or did they merely know the importance of 'atmosphere' when a group is following a Rite.

ML, why did you first claim everyone was suspended, while you now claim the old man who was guilty was expelled.

"Can all the rituals be merely symbolic?" asks Short. "One must presume that people join lodges (and sub groups) predominantly to feather their own nests, and to form a loose combination against the interests of everybody who is not a mason."

But now I know what intrigued you guys so much: "the perfect hobby for bored middle-aged men engaged in undemanding jobs who hanker for a faintly exotic social life". Explains NYC pretty good, don't it.

Originally posted by akilles


ML, why did you first claim everyone was suspended, while you now claim the old man who was guilty was expelled.

I thought that was pretty clear. The Grand Master suspended the Lodge's charter while they investigated the matter, which means all the members of the Lodge were suspended. When it was finally determined what exactly happened, the perpetrators were expelled, while the innocent members were restored to good standing.