Masons and conspiracy theories

Originally posted by akilles
Also, check out this address: 1733 - 16th Street NW

It is 13 blocks north of the White House.

It is DIRECTLY north of the non Obelisk, even more directly than the White House.

It is the Mother Lodge of the World. Of the Scottish Rite, not regular Masonry, as if you can be one, but without also belonging to regular Masonry.

Also, if you want to connect 4 Circles, and a Square, it points to the White House. IT being an upside down Pentagram, of course. Washington, DuPont, Logan and Thomas circles, and Mt. Vernon Square, for reference.

Also, a symbolic owl is laid into the street plan surrounding the White House, and it would be jumping to conclusions to compare it the 45 ft stone Owl at Bohemia Grove, wouldn't it.

akilles, ol' troll. I think you'd better get a Washington DC map and count those blocks again. Sorry to disappoint you, but it isn't 13 of them.

Matter of fact, I sure wish you'd go to Washington DC and take a tour of the House of the Temple that you keep referring to. It was built in the early 1900's a LONG time after the White House and Capitol Building were already there. It's the home of the Supreme Council of the SOUTHERN JURISDICTION of the Scottish Rite. The SJ presides over the Scottish Rite (4th-33rd Degrees) in the states basically south of the Ohio River and West of the Mississippi. The other US States are under the Northern Masonic Jurisdiction in Massachusetts. Canadian Scottish Rite is under the jurisdiction of the Supreme Council of Canada, Mexican Scottish Rite is under the jurisdiction of the Supreme Council of Mexico, etc. etc. The so-called "Mother Supreme Council" is called that because it was the FIRST Scottish Rite Supreme Council. It exercises NO authority (let me say that again NO authority) over the Scottish Rite outside the Southern Jurisdiction of the U.S.A. and it's a crying shame that they built it where they did because it seems to add fuel to the fire of ignorance people like you lit.

I'll make a deal with you. If you'll go to DC (let me know a week or two in advance) I'll arrange a PERSONAL tour of the House of the Temple for you. They take the general public through the main rooms but there's a kitchen, dining hall, basement, boiler-room and some other places that they generally don't take people. I'll make sure you see it from TOP to BOTTOM. You can even stop along the way and check for secret passages. While you're there you can visit the Library .... and look at ANY book you please. If the Grand Commander is there you might even get to meet him.

U2U me when you're going and I'll make arrangements. Deal?

Hi Qui Bono

Originally posted by Qui Bono
Question: Is it a religion?
Answer: No.
Freemasonry does not instruct its members in what their religious beliefs should be, nor is it a substitute for religion.

See i just dont understand the doublethink of freemasons who say they are not religious but as this lodge state that there Group "is a unique society concerned with moral and spiritual values."

how can someone or some group who is not religious or does not encourage religion onto members talk about spiritual values, when if you look at dictionary.com definition of "spiritual" as

1. Of, relating to, consisting of, or having the nature of spirit; not tangible or material. See Synonyms at immaterial.
2. Of, concerned with, or affecting the soul.
3. Of, from, or relating to God; deific.
4. Of or belonging to a church or religion; sacred.
5. Relating to or having the nature of spirits or a spirit; supernatural.

seems like the word spritual is married to the concept of some form of religion.

I agree it's a hard concept to get across. One of the problems (and it's not just with this concept) is the difficulty people have seperating 'freemasons' from 'freemasonry'.

Freemasons are usually religious, certainly they must be 'spiritual' as a belief in a divine creative force is required for membership.

Freemasonry is a system of morality centred around the understanding that the lessons taught are divinely inspired. It would be quite meaningless to an atheist, hence the membership requirement.

Freemasonry, in itself, offers nothing in the way of liturgy, salvation, dogma and all the other trappings associated with Religion. It's fair to say that it is a spiritual organisation, due to the spirituality of its members, but I guess that would to an extent hinge very much on how you define spirituality.

Stating that freemasonry is, or is not, religious also turns on how you might define that word. It's really playing with semantics - personally I see nothing remotely religious in freemasonry as it is focused purely on the moral lessons themselves without making further comment. Certainly freemasonry encourages religion, indeed it claims to be a supporter of it. IMO it fits no. (3) in your spirituality definition as the moral tenets are divinely inspired (i.e. from God).

Does that make it any clearer?

[edit on 22-2-2005 by Trinityman]

I have not read the whole thread, but objectively, the Mason's raise a few good points. However, they also post statements with little to back them up, like, "Absolutely not" or "Where did you here that?" or "You have to stop buying into this occult crap and Freemasonary." Just pigheaded arguing. Aside from Freemasonary, it is undeniable that "secret" rituals are practiced by the elite: not a conspiracy theory, a fact. A great example being the Bohemian Grove rituals captured by Alex Jones. Another being the Skull and Bones Ritual caught on tape and aired on TV where they are pretending to slit women's throats. My point is that, perhaps getting on Freemasonary and linking it with conspiracy theory is a tad wrong. Another great peak, although it was a film, is Eyes Wide Shut inspired by Traumnovelle.

Senrak:

That is a great offer. Akilles, you should take him up on it.



[edit on 22-2-2005 by freudling]

Originally posted by Qui Bono
Well would it be fair enough to say that freemasonry has helped brothers out with say police matters within the freternity,

i dont mean like anything violent but like the myth of one mason going to court and signaling to the judge his memebership in the secret ways to get off paying traffic fines or something stupid like that?

Probably, but such a thing would constitute a gross abuse of Masonry, and if it was discovered the offending parties would be expelled. It should be noted that this type of occurence probably belongs to practically all legitimate organizations, and that all such organizations would frown upon such a thing.

Plus the whole obelisk thing is strange, like i've seen one thats definatly masonic, at one lodge in the park attached to it, and have been up to it,
and have seen other similer type obelisk style designs on masonic building Plus our nice big one thats a war monument for soldiors, so i couldnt help but make the connection.

I'm not doubting your word; I'm only saying that such a thing seems to be basically an architectural preference instead of fraternal symbolism. The obelisk as a symbol is not found in Masonry, although I'm sure some Masonic Lodges (like practically everyone else) has some sort of similar structure somewhere.

See i jump on the net, type "freemason obelisk" in google or something similer and all this stuff comes up, and i instantly recognize what they are from egypt.

Obelisks were popular in Egypt, as well as Greece. In these ancient agricultural communities, the sun was seen as a type of divinity because it provided the necessities for life. The obelisk symbolized the sun to those people, and they were erected to honor the life-giving principle of the solar orb.

From what your saying its not that common amongst most masons.
but if you dont mind im still on the sidelines with the whole obelisk thing,
must be an aussie thing with the masons down here, and as i said the Main symbol of the masons, forgive my ignorance but im not sure of its correct name, the rule and compass with the G thingy, is on lots of grave stones with obelisks instead of the crosses.

It could be that the obelisk is a symbol is Australian Masonry, but I've never heard or seen it referred to as such. On the other hand, I've never been to Australia, so I can't really say for sure. In any case, obelisks aren't part of traditional Masonry.

There is a problem then. If Masonary has variations in different parts of the world, how can Mason's make generalizations if they don't have knowledge of these variations?

Originally posted by freudling
There is a problem then. If Masonary has variations in different parts of the world, how can Mason's make generalizations if they don't have knowledge of these variations?

The variations are minimal, at least in "Ancient Craft Masonry", which are the first three degrees. There is a slight difference in wording in every jurisdiction. In the USA alone, therefore, there are 51 different versions of the ritual in use, for the 51 different Grand Lodges in the US.

The earliest known exposes of Masonic rituals are dated from the mid 1720's; none of these mention obelisks, nor have any of the American Masonic degrees currently in use. Using all this as my basis, I can only assume that the obelisks in Australia are just there for aesthetic and artistic reasons. It seems unlikely that the Grand Lodge of Australia would have added extra symbols (in this case an obelisk) to their system, as such tampering with our time-honored traditions in ritual is generally frowned upon.

Originally posted by senrak
(Private note to the other Brother Masons on-line: Sorry, guys ol' akilles-troll has discovered our most coveted secret. We spell our names backwards. Leveller, you'd better go ahead and admit that your real name is Brother Rellevel. ...Sebatwerk, well I'm not sure what you need to do.)

Senrak, it's no mystery to us masons that if you take the numerical position of each letter of my name in the alphabet, add every other one up, then divide by every third letter, add my age, multiply by the date I was initiated into the fraternity, then divide by the address of my home plus the address of my lodge... you get 18, which is 6+6+6!!!

There MUST be a conspiracy!


[edit on 22-2-2005 by sebatwerk]

Originally posted by freudling
My point is that, perhaps getting on Freemasonary and linking it with conspiracy theory is a tad wrong. Another great peak, although it was a film, is Eyes Wide Shut inspired by Traumnovelle.

I would agree that there is no conspiracy associated with Masonry. It really makes you wonder why so many try so hard to make Masonry evil. Makes you wonder who is behind condemning the Masons.

Eyes Wide Shut was not as good a movie as it was made out to be, IMO. I was disappointed.

(The Group framing the Masons) must surely be even more secretive, even more well-organized (internationally), and much more careful of hiding their EVIL intentions.

I wonder if its possible a small part of Masonry belongs to this fictitious group, and have all suspicion thrown on Freemasonry to keep their side project under wraps.

Hey, you said it MAKES you think. You didn't say WHAT it makes you think
.

All i did was make observations of masonic obelisks in my home town.
I will take photos and post em, most probably on the weekend.

sorry if my dimwitted brain made a connection with the occult and you get offended

Also why are we (non masons) profane, yes i may not no much about masonry or masons, but I (the profane) WILL NEVER KNOW MORE THAN A MASON ABOUT MASONRY.


See the divide, You say "this" about masonry and the profane is just supposed to swallow it.

See how it parrellels with the skull and bones society, or all so called secret societies.


When you had both GWB and JFK on meet the press and they wouldnt say not one word about what they do within this group.


Yeah fair enough, have your secrets, all apart of freedom, but,
when you have such powerful people, and we all know how masons have and still do have people in powerful positions around the world, and the profane wants to know a bit so we can make informed decisions , and there is nothing manifested by the "secret" groups, we are told, "JUST TRUST US"

Screw that !

thats where all this conspiracy crap starts, because idiots go around doing pseudo journalism, get a bit of juicy evidence, and then exploit it.


Your secrecy is a symtom of your own problem.

So stop being so arragant and act like you have god like knowledge, when the profane question your group.


Its like the question i asked about the Mason judge letting his buddy mason go on traffic charges, i was told that its uncommon and that offending parties are punished if found out.

Like, we are just supposed to take your word for that. You cant prove it one way or another.


See how there is no thruth !

Originally posted by Qui Bono
See how there is no thruth !

But there IS, it's just whether you choose to accept it or not.

If you don't accept the truth, then it isn't the truth to you, now is it? See how this is just a cycle of BS? Look at the facts, dude.

Originally posted by Qui Bono
All i did was make observations of masonic obelisks in my home town.
I will take photos and post em, most probably on the weekend.

sorry if my dimwitted brain made a connection with the occult and you get offended

Also why are we (non masons) profane, yes i may not no much about masonry or masons, but I (the profane) WILL NEVER KNOW MORE THAN A MASON ABOUT MASONRY.


See the divide, You say "this" about masonry and the profane is just supposed to swallow it.

See how it parrellels with the skull and bones society, or all so called secret societies.


When you had both GWB and JFK on meet the press and they wouldnt say not one word about what they do within this group.


Yeah fair enough, have your secrets, all apart of freedom, but,
when you have such powerful people, and we all know how masons have and still do have people in powerful positions around the world, and the profane wants to know a bit so we can make informed decisions , and there is nothing manifested by the "secret" groups, we are told, "JUST TRUST US"

Screw that !

thats where all this conspiracy crap starts, because idiots go around doing pseudo journalism, get a bit of juicy evidence, and then exploit it.


Your secrecy is a symtom of your own problem.

So stop being so arragant and act like you have god like knowledge, when the profane question your group.


Its like the question i asked about the Mason judge letting his buddy mason go on traffic charges, i was told that its uncommon and that offending parties are punished if found out.

Like, we are just supposed to take your word for that. You cant prove it one way or another.

See how there is no thruth !

[YAWN!!!!!!]

New troll...same ol' dribble



[edit on 22-2-2005 by senrak]

Originally posted by akilles
(The Group framing the Masons) must surely be even more secretive, even more well-organized (internationally), and much more careful of hiding their EVIL intentions.

Not really; they've always been pretty blatant, and just as unreliable.

Originally posted by Qui Bono

Also why are we (non masons) profane, yes i may not no much about masonry or masons, but I (the profane) WILL NEVER KNOW MORE THAN A MASON ABOUT MASONRY.


See the divide, You say "this" about masonry and the profane is just supposed to swallow it.

Think of it along these lines... A person can know everything about you and your household, down to the type of toilet paper you have. But unless that person becomes part of your household they never know as much or more than a member of that household.

So it's all about being on the outside looking in and speculating about things, or being on the inside and knowing.

See how it parrellels with the skull and bones society, or all so called secret societies.


When you had both GWB and JFK on meet the press and they wouldnt say not one word about what they do within this group.

Does it really matter? Maybe they didn't want to dwell on unimportant things. I don't remember this as an issue when the elder Bush was elected.
Should we be concerned that they didn't ask if they were members of the Rotary Club or (in Kerry's case since he's a catholic) the Knights of Columbus?

Yeah fair enough, have your secrets, all apart of freedom, but,
when you have such powerful people, and we all know how masons have and still do have people in powerful positions around the world, and the profane wants to know a bit so we can make informed decisions , and there is nothing manifested by the "secret" groups, we are told, "JUST TRUST US"

You state this as the Masonic organization "placed" these people in positions of power. Fact is that they are people in power that *happen* to be Masons.

The thing is....if we hypothetically had a "free attendance day" to a Masonic lodge where a layperson could see the "whole shebang"...they would either a) say "that's it?!?!?" or b) say "that can't be all....you're just staging this...there's more to it than that"

So even if we laid everything on the table....there would still be people that weren't happy with the answer they would get....

Screw that !

Your choice....but sooner or later in life you have to take some things at face value and trust the information that you are given.

thats where all this conspiracy crap starts, because idiots go around doing pseudo journalism, get a bit of juicy evidence, and then exploit it.

And that's what we're here to try and correct. Give people that have been inindated with misinformation the right information. Are we going to change the perception of Freemasonry? Hopefully...Are we going to change everyone's? No, I don't think so. There will always be the skeptics.

Your secrecy is a symtom of your own problem.

To a certain degree I agree with you. Altho I would say the desire of the layperson to know our "secrets" is the problem. Not the fact that we have secrets, just people love to think that if you have a secret...you're up to no good. Which kind of goes hand in hand with the response to an earlier quote.

Its like the question i asked about the Mason judge letting his buddy mason go on traffic charges, i was told that its uncommon and that offending parties are punished if found out.

If you remove the word "Mason" from that same scenario does it change it? Does MasonicLights answer still hold true?

Like, we are just supposed to take your word for that. You cant prove it one way or another.

Again, if we look at that scenario without the word "Mason", Would it not be against civil law? And can we say that they would or wouldn't be punished? You would hope as an officer of the court they would be held to a higher standard and thus punished for thier actions. We as Masons hope that they would be also held to that same higher standard in thier respective lodge and punished accordingly.

See how there is no thruth !

The truth is there. It's just that some choose not to accept it.

to golfie,

In that quote about "placing" masons in positions of power, if you look at it closely i never said the word "place" in reference to masons and positions of power.

I never even ment to imply that and if thats what you got from that im sorry.
It wasnt my intention.

And with the question of the Mason judge and the traffic ticket mason buddy,
the scenario would not work at all if you dropped the word mason because there would be no common bond between the judge and defendant.

You know its like the polaticians daughter or son who escapes the draft because daddies a politition.

And with that point the strange thing is that say in the states where i assume a lot of senators and house of rep. memebers are masons,
That hardly any of there sons and daughters are in iraq.


But thats a bit of a broad statement, so its justa bit of food for thought.

Dude as i said before, i dont hate masons or anything, and from what ive learnded so far at this forum, a lot of misconceptions have been blasted away by what has been posted by the masons here.

thanks anyways !



[edit on 22-2-2005 by Qui Bono]

[edit on 22-2-2005 by Qui Bono]

Originally posted by Qui Bono
All i did was make observations of masonic obelisks in my home town.
I will take photos and post em, most probably on the weekend.

sorry if my dimwitted brain made a connection with the occult and you get offended

I don't know if you are talking to me, but if so, I didn't get offended. I just wanted to point out that obelisk monuments are common in architecture, and are not Masonic symbols. After all, Masonic Lodges all have roofs, but a roof isn't a Masonic symbol.

Secondly, I would have to at least partially disagree with your assesment that obelisks are occultic. They were in fact used during pre-Christian pagan worship, but certainly we can not call a thing "occultic" just because it is pagan. Occultism really has nothing to do with paganism, aside from the fact that some people have been both. The same is true of monotheism.

Also why are we (non masons) profane,

The term "profane" is not widely used in Masonry anymore because it doesn't mean the same thing it used to mean. When non-Masons are referred to as "profane" in several older Masonic books, the term is not derogatory. It is from the Latin "pro fanum", and literally means "outside the temple". Today, the modern equivalent word would be "uninitiated".

yes i may not no much about masonry or masons, but I (the profane) WILL NEVER KNOW MORE THAN A MASON ABOUT MASONRY.

This of course is true. In like manner, I will never know more about scouting than an Eagle Scout, nor will I ever know more about Rotary than a Rotarian. It only makes sense that someone who specializes in a certain thing will know about it than the rest of us. If I know more about Masonry than you, I'm sure there's other things that you know more about than me. It's nothing to get angry over.

See the divide, You say "this" about masonry and the profane is just supposed to swallow it.

Ultimately and frankly, it doesn't even matter. Masonry is for Masons, not the "profane", as you yourself have phrased. Nevertheless, it seems to me that Masons are more than happy to talk about their Fraternity with those who are interested, even though we are under no obligation to do so.

When you had both GWB and JFK on meet the press and they wouldnt say not one word about what they do within this group.

Well, they actually don't do anything because Skull and Bones is a senior society at Yale and both of those guys graduated a long time ago. Seeral former Bonesmen on a secret societies special on A&E mentioned that they meet twice per month, have dinner, and practice debating (Skull and Bones is noted for its debating team at the university).

Your secrecy is a symtom of your own problem.

Again, to be frank, it isn't us with a problem. If you don't like us, fine; it's unfortuante, but I'm really not going to lose much sleep over it.

Its like the question i asked about the Mason judge letting his buddy mason go on traffic charges, i was told that its uncommon and that offending parties are punished if found out.

Like, we are just supposed to take your word for that. You cant prove it one way or another.

I thought the burden of proof was on the accuser? It looks like with all the accusations made against Masonry down through the centuries, eventually someone could present some proof. Interesting that no one has...

Thanks Masonic Light,

you have been helpful and my view has changed a bit.

in reguards to obelisk and occult, maybe i should have chosen a better word.


My opinion is that reguarldess of the labels each society gets, the egyptions were a pretty bad bunch of dudes, if you compare to say modern western style governments.

And i dont really admire their architecture all that much, which, yes uncommon as it is, i have seen associated with masonry/masons in my home state. ie, the bloody obelisk i keep ranting on about.

And as i stated before, our own governments uses them also, for war memorials, so its not exclusivly mason, plus the fact that the masons here, in this forum, say its very uncommon amongst masons and there architecture.

Cant blame me for doing a bit of math.




22-2-2005 by Qui Bono]

[edit on 22-2-2005 by Qui Bono]

[edit on 22-2-2005 by Qui Bono]

Originally posted by Qui Bono
to golfie,

In that quote about "placing" masons in positions of power, if you look at it closely i never said the word "place" in reference to masons and positions of power.

I never even ment to imply that and if thats what you got from that im sorry.
It wasnt my intention.

And if I read it wrong, I'm sorry. But I have to admit that's how I read it, and thus my response.

And with the question of the Mason judge and the traffic ticket mason buddy,
the scenario would not work at all if you dropped the word mason because there would be no common bond between the judge and defendant.

The bond between them would've been "buddy". Meaning would it have been any different if they were just friends.

You know its like the polaticians daughter or son who escapes the draft because daddies a politition.

And with that point the strange thing is that say in the states where i assume a lot of senators and house of rep. memebers are masons,
That hardly any of there sons and daughters are in iraq.

It is true that people in politcal power can use and/or abuse it for personal reasons. But again if they are or aren't Masons, in my eye is immaterial. Except for the fact, being a Mason I personally would hold the Mason to a higher standard. I don't know the numbers of Masonic members of Congress. I actually would *assume* that it is low. But we know what assuming does.

But thats a bit of a broad statement, so its justa bit of food for thought.

Agreed

Dude as i said before, i dont hate masons or anything, and from what ive learnded so far at this forum, a lot of misconceptions have been blasted away by what has been posted by the masons here.

I am sorry if my post seemed forward. But I just wanted to point out a different view. I'm glad that the people on this forum have helped you "blast" alot of the misconceptions. I being fairly new to this board myself am learning alot myself.

thanks anyways !

[edit on 22-2-2005 by Qui Bono]

[edit on 22-2-2005 by Qui Bono]

Again sorry for any misunderstandings.

well talking to masons here has been "enlightening" and far better than any anti-mason debunking site.

And i think i may be started to grasp a few of the "mysteries" for lack of a better word,
but if i may ask a few more questions.

In say various lodges, how autonomous are they from other lodges ?
and also, can if you please, give me an example of say one thing that may be debated at a lodge, like does it run like a government with say a consensus being made on certain decisions, things like that. people getting say according to the rank of degrees ??

Besides ceremony, you must say discuss charity for example and how thats going, and how much should be spent on said charity, discuss progress, things like that for example.

I dont know, i hope ya get the jist of what im asking.
If its too deep, i can understand.



ps. how do ya do the quote thingies in ya posts !

Hey akillis, i finaly noticed your U2U post ya sent and agree totaly on the tactics used. amazing isnt it. like its from some book.

anyways it wouldnt let me reply until i have at least 20 posts.


would like to talk more about what you said in that U2U message if possible.