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The problem with Health Care: "Government involvement"

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posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:08 AM
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Originally posted by Taxi-Driver

Originally posted by mental modulator


Well gnash your teeth extree hard when it happens, enjoy!


4 years to implement. That should be enough time for the Dems to completely implode by ramming unwanted legislation down people's throats.

Less than 36% of the population wants this. That doesn't win many elections.


We will see...

I have swallowed many o' conservative pills, tis my turn.

[edit on 15-8-2009 by mental modulator]




posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:11 AM
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Originally posted by VinceP1974

Originally posted by Gateway
reply to post by VinceP1974
 


Yes you have the right States. Obama will tear this country apart if he proceeds with his socialism...



So I say let the folks like mental modulator who are in bankrupted Democrat-run One Party States , keep thier fantasy that the rest of the country is going to prop them up.

The rest of us will just say "no. you can pass whatever law you want in washington. If it violates the 10th Amendment, it's nullified. you want the tax money.. come and take it if you think you're tough"



OK have fun...

BTW my governmer is a RED, Chicago... Makes sense why my state is bankrupt

[edit on 15-8-2009 by mental modulator]



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:11 AM
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reply to post by mental modulator
 


Again you still don't get it...

YOU GUYS WANT FREE HEALTH CARE:

And you want the entire American public to pay for it, regardless of the costs, or whether the majority does not want it, or if its constitutional.

Am I right?

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Gateway]



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:13 AM
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Yes Gov. Perry stated Texas could reserve the right to opt-out of this legislation if it is the will of Texans.

I doubt the Texas legislature would object too much seeing as a large percentage of state legislators are from the insurance industry.

There is also rumblings of secession... Personally I wouldn't mind, I think the idea kind of charming. Kinda like a giant Switzerland of the Americas. Only more free.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:20 AM
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Originally posted by mental modulator


We will see...

I have swallowed many o' conservative pills, tis my turn.


Heh...that is what it's about. Gettin even then, right, mate?

Well remember the (R) Immigration bill from a couple of years ago?

Did you see all the protests and people in the streets?

Do you think Capitol Hill listened? And wisely quashed the bad legislation.

What happens when they don't?????? Think about that.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:21 AM
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Originally posted by Taxi-Driver
Yes Gov. Perry stated Texas could reserve the right to opt-out of this legislation if it is the will of Texans.

I doubt the Texas legislature would object too much seeing as a large percentage of state legislators are from the insurance industry.

There is also rumblings of secession... Personally I wouldn't mind, I think the idea kind of charming. Kinda like a giant Switzerland of the Americas. Only more free.


I like it too...

Go Texas!



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:22 AM
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Originally posted by Gateway
reply to post by mental modulator
 

Let's cut to the CHASE:

NO, what YOU, your mother, your girlfriend, want IS FOR ME AND EVERY OTHER AMERICAN TO PICK UP THE TAB FOR YOUR HEALTH CARE.

Again, you are free NOT to pay for insurance...that is the freedom you have! PAY FOR IT OUT OF POCKET! But don't reach into OUR pocket to pay for your trip to the DOCTOR. I REPEAT...THAT IS UN-AMERICAN!!!


I want everyone to really see what he's saying here. The AMERICAN WAY is not to care for our own. The American way in this poster's mind is "get your own, leave mine alone." It is un-american for us as a society, through our government (the only entity large enough and capable of accomplishing this), to help one another, to provide for those that cannot provide for themselves.

He assumes (typical) that EVERYONE can afford the most expensive healthcare in the world, and if they can't... OH WELL! Just don't take my dollar...

He consistently makes the point that polling supposedly PROVES that the American people don't want this, when you can find just as many polls saying that they actually do want it, but are just weary of how to pay for it. There are also polls out there showing that people are torn about whether or not Hawaii is a state of the United States. Yeah, let's go by polls. Those are reliable.

More reliable is that for everyone of those 80/90%+ that on a poll said "I LOVE my healthcare [because I'm healthy, I just pay my premiums and never have to really deal with the system]," that if/when every single one of those people get seriously ill, and then have to actually activate and use their insurance, those are the people that move over to the "discontent" columns of those polls. The polls excuse is a non-starter.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:24 AM
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Originally posted by mental modulator

Originally posted by VinceP1974

Originally posted by Gateway
reply to post by VinceP1974
 


Yes you have the right States. Obama will tear this country apart if he proceeds with his socialism...



So I say let the folks like mental modulator who are in bankrupted Democrat-run One Party States , keep thier fantasy that the rest of the country is going to prop them up.

The rest of us will just say "no. you can pass whatever law you want in washington. If it violates the 10th Amendment, it's nullified. you want the tax money.. come and take it if you think you're tough"



OK have fun...

BTW my governmer is a RED, Chicago... Makes sense why my state is bankrupt

[edit on 15-8-2009 by mental modulator]


Your legislature (ie: Policy-making arm of gov) is entrenched Democrat.

No one outside of CA sees Arnold as being any great example of conservativism... so the fact that you got a liberal GOP Govr doens't make you any bit of Red at all.

(I hate the fact that Dems are bestowed the Blue color.. who made that rule up?)


[edit on 15-8-2009 by VinceP1974]



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:26 AM
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Personally, I think the whole heatlthcare thing is a non-issue because we simply don't have the cash to pay it.

Beijing bankers were in Washington last week, asking some very serious questions...the kind of questions a comcerned lender asks a troubled borrower: When are we going to get our fiscal house in order? How are we going to balance our budgets? Meanwhile, the govt has to beg cash from the Chinese on a rolling, current-account basis. This means, in plain english, that the Govt is living MONTH TO MONTH. If they couldn't beg or borrow money from foreigners for a single month, they would be literally unable to keep the freaking lights in the Capitol Dome building on or to keep granny's social-security paychecks going out. The Chinese, Japanese, and other lenders are trying to slip away from the US bond market and unwind their share of our debt as quietly as possible because they have realized we are DEADBEATS.

So I ask you...who's going to pay for this miracle health plan? The printing-press fairy? Just try it and we'll see how well that works. Just ask Argentina.

And by they way, anyone who wants to get angry about government involvement in the private sector would do well to direct their rage at the FINANCIAL BAILOUTS. Do you realize that 30% of OUR MONEY borrowed in the most recent rounds by the big banksters is going to 8-figure corporate bonuses? Healthcare at least has the potential to benefit somebody, somewhere. Buying a new Oriental rug for the Citibank presidential suite with bailout money is what we should REALLY be enraged about here.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:27 AM
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Originally posted by Taxi-Driver

Originally posted by mental modulator


We will see...

I have swallowed many o' conservative pills, tis my turn.


Heh...that is what it's about. Gettin even then, right, mate?

Well remember the (R) Immigration bill from a couple of years ago?

Did you see all the protests and people in the streets?

Do you think Capitol Hill listened? And wisely quashed the bad legislation.

What happens when they don't?????? Think about that.



No, it's about a 3 year 1.7 million dollar cancer bill that is on my family. It is about the death of my Grandmother who was denied an MRI and passed as a result of f-ing plaque. It is the notion that the "free market" approach has been tried for 40 years and purely profit motivated. All rigged to feed and grow off an unfortunate fact of life.

I will fight just the same - not on the side of the Corporations...



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:28 AM
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Originally posted by tommy_boy



I want everyone to really see what he's saying here. The AMERICAN WAY is not to care for our own. The American way in this poster's mind is "get your own, leave mine alone." It is un-american for us as a society, through our government (the only entity large enough and capable of accomplishing this), to help one another, to provide for those that cannot provide for themselves.

He assumes (typical) that EVERYONE can afford the most expensive healthcare in the world, and if they can't... OH WELL! Just don't take my dollar...

He consistently makes the point that polling supposedly PROVES that the American people don't want this, when you can find just as many polls saying that they actually do want it, but are just weary of how to pay for it. There are also polls out there showing that people are torn about whether or not Hawaii is a state of the United States. Yeah, let's go by polls. Those are reliable.

More reliable is that for everyone of those 80/90%+ that on a poll said "I LOVE my healthcare [because I'm healthy, I just pay my premiums and never have to really deal with the system]," that if/when every single one of those people get seriously ill, and then have to actually activate and use their insurance, those are the people that move over to the "discontent" columns of those polls. The polls excuse is a non-starter.


This is classic example of using American values against us. What's he doing is appealing to old fashioned American values of helping one another and then expecting that such a thing can be transferred to an unaccountable Federal Govt and that the same values are therefore being upheld.

But he's wrong.

Once you off-load your community obligations to the Govt , you no longer have Community obligations.. since you gave them to the Govt.

As these Leftists give the Govt more and more control over things that used to be handled person to person, the level of direct involvement in actually CARING for other people decreases.

So all this hoopla he's appealing to..... having the Govt run it actually destroys those values.

Dont let your morals and values be used against you by those who seek to increase the power of Govt and to further destroy the Constitution



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:34 AM
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Originally posted by VinceP1974

Originally posted by mental modulator

Originally posted by VinceP1974

Originally posted by Gateway
reply to post by VinceP1974
 


Yes you have the right States. Obama will tear this country apart if he proceeds with his socialism...



So I say let the folks like mental modulator who are in bankrupted Democrat-run One Party States , keep thier fantasy that the rest of the country is going to prop them up.

The rest of us will just say "no. you can pass whatever law you want in washington. If it violates the 10th Amendment, it's nullified. you want the tax money.. come and take it if you think you're tough"



OK have fun...

BTW my governmer is a RED, Chicago... Makes sense why my state is bankrupt

[edit on 15-8-2009 by mental modulator]


Your legislature (ie: Policy-making arm of gov) is entrenched Democrat.

No one outside of CA sees Arnold as being any great example of conservativism... so the fact that you got a liberal GOP Govr doens't make you any bit of Red at all.

(I hate the fact that Dems are bestowed the Blue color.. who made that rule up?)


[edit on 15-8-2009 by VinceP1974]


Don't know, I will be the red then since I am a communist and a terrorist lover...

There are few examples of conservative anything, its a bad parody - this argument would be much more productive if you were real conservatives, as the need for all the
fear and pomp would be needless. The evolution of such is sad and the idealism is vapid now, it is sad, but it is not the days of wagons. However I will say the wild assertions you guys make do not promote a move to real conservatism.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by tommy_boy

I want everyone to really see what he's saying here. The AMERICAN WAY is not to care for our own.
Since when does caring equate with picking up someone's tab? do i go to your house and ask you to pick-up by brother's expenses because he's been laid off work?




The American way in this poster's mind is "get your own, leave mine alone."
Mine is my family and my income. My income does not = you or your family. You have your own income to pay for those having a difficult time.�




It is un-american for us as a society, through our government (the only entity large enough and capable of accomplishing this), to help one another, to provide for those that cannot provide for themselves.
This is where private citizens come-in and help those that need it. Forcing people to do as you please is un-american!!!

I repeat un-american!! because the majority of people do not want this!!!



He assumes (typical) that EVERYONE can afford the most expensive healthcare in the world, and if they can't... OH WELL! Just don't take my dollar...
I assume nothing! i assume that you pay your own way, through college, in the grocery store, at restaurant, at the gym, at the movies....and at paying your own damn insurance!!!




He consistently makes the point that polling supposedly PROVES that the American people don't want this, when you can find just as many polls saying that they actually do want it, but are just weary of how to pay for it.
Weary? how else are you to pay for this Einstein if not by taxing or printing press?



There are also polls out there showing that people are torn about whether or not Hawaii is a state of the United States. Yeah, let's go by polls. Those are reliable.
Way to make an argument...bring up an unrelated side story. Next why not bring up that maybe a certain percent of the population believes the earth is flat.






More reliable is that for everyone of those 80/90%+ that on a poll said "I LOVE my healthcare
That's exactly WHY insurance works. Most people are not sick, and those that pay into it pay for those that are sick...[SNIP].

 


Mod Edit: All Caps – Please Review This Link.

Mod Note: Removed name calling.

Mod Note: Courtesy is Mandatory – Please Review Link.

[edit on 8/15/2009 by AshleyD]



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:35 AM
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Originally posted by mental modulator



There are few examples of conservative anything, its a bad parody - this argument would be much more productive if you were real conservatives, as the need for all the
fear and pomp would be needless. The evolution of such is sad and the idealism is vapid now, it is sad, but it is not the days of wagons. However I will say the wild assertions you guys make do not promote a move to real conservatism.



You're right about the few examples.

Look at how many problems there are.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:41 AM
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Originally posted by silent thunder
Personally, I think the whole heatlthcare thing is a non-issue because we simply don't have the cash to pay it.

Beijing bankers were in Washington last week, asking some very serious questions...the kind of questions a comcerned lender asks a troubled borrower: When are we going to get our fiscal house in order? How are we going to balance our budgets? Meanwhile, the govt has to beg cash from the Chinese on a rolling, current-account basis. This means, in plain english, that the Govt is living MONTH TO MONTH. If they couldn't beg or borrow money from foreigners for a single month, they would be literally unable to keep the freaking lights in the Capitol Dome building on or to keep granny's social-security paychecks going out. The Chinese, Japanese, and other lenders are trying to slip away from the US bond market and unwind their share of our debt as quietly as possible because they have realized we are DEADBEATS.

So I ask you...who's going to pay for this miracle health plan? The printing-press fairy? Just try it and we'll see how well that works. Just ask Argentina.

And by they way, anyone who wants to get angry about government involvement in the private sector would do well to direct their rage at the FINANCIAL BAILOUTS. Do you realize that 30% of OUR MONEY borrowed in the most recent rounds by the big banksters is going to 8-figure corporate bonuses? Healthcare at least has the potential to benefit somebody, somewhere. Buying a new Oriental rug for the Citibank presidential suite with bailout money is what we should REALLY be enraged about here.


Very good post, and I feel that a lot of the outrage we are seeing is cummulative. And the fact that these bible-eske bills are being drafted and passed (or attempted) before the content is even read also fuels the fire.

Sloppy and reckless I say.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:47 AM
link   

Originally posted by VinceP1974

Originally posted by tommy_boy



I want everyone to really see what he's saying here. The AMERICAN WAY is not to care for our own. The American way in this poster's mind is "get your own, leave mine alone." It is un-american for us as a society, through our government (the only entity large enough and capable of accomplishing this), to help one another, to provide for those that cannot provide for themselves.

He assumes (typical) that EVERYONE can afford the most expensive healthcare in the world, and if they can't... OH WELL! Just don't take my dollar...

He consistently makes the point that polling supposedly PROVES that the American people don't want this, when you can find just as many polls saying that they actually do want it, but are just weary of how to pay for it. There are also polls out there showing that people are torn about whether or not Hawaii is a state of the United States. Yeah, let's go by polls. Those are reliable.

More reliable is that for everyone of those 80/90%+ that on a poll said "I LOVE my healthcare [because I'm healthy, I just pay my premiums and never have to really deal with the system]," that if/when every single one of those people get seriously ill, and then have to actually activate and use their insurance, those are the people that move over to the "discontent" columns of those polls. The polls excuse is a non-starter.


This is classic example of using American values against us. What's he doing is appealing to old fashioned American values of helping one another and then expecting that such a thing can be transferred to an unaccountable Federal Govt and that the same values are therefore being upheld.

But he's wrong.

Once you off-load your community obligations to the Govt , you no longer have Community obligations.. since you gave them to the Govt.

As these Leftists give the Govt more and more control over things that used to be handled person to person, the level of direct involvement in actually CARING for other people decreases.

So all this hoopla he's appealing to..... having the Govt run it actually destroys those values.

Dont let your morals and values be used against you by those who seek to increase the power of Govt and to further destroy the Constitution


As I see it you have the equation wrong, my good conservative friend here finally saw the light

www.abovetopsecret.com...

HE is a conservative much like you, but he is his own thinker.
The government is not the seat of power, it is the industry that fuels the machine.
YOu are sided with this machine, have not even offered any solutions as your only goal is to maintain the word NO and ignore the well intentioned part of the motive or benefits behind the proposals.

I am not blind I see your way will benefit the private sector and help propel CEO profits further, but that is not in my interest.

I think it is your free market sentiment that is used against you... But then again maybe paying more for your healthcare and being subject to the influence of its power
is what America means to you.

Not freedom too me...



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:52 AM
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reply to post by mental modulator
 


metal modulator, I find it funny that you despise corporatism yet you support the very legislature that is being pushed by lobby groups to favor them, at the expense of the taxpayers. I suppose you are also in favor of the bail-outs, tarp funds, GM and Chrystler hand-outs too?



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:54 AM
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Originally posted by Gateway

Originally posted by tommy_boy

I want everyone to really see what he's saying here. The AMERICAN WAY is not to care for our own.
Since when DOES CARING EQUATE with PICKING UP SOMEONE'S TAB? Do I go to your house and ASK you to pick-up by brother's expenses because he's been laid off work?




The American way in this poster's mind is "get your own, leave mine alone."
Mine is my family and my income. My income does not = YOU OR YOUR FAMILY. You have your own income to pay for those having a difficult time.




It is un-american for us as a society, through our government (the only entity large enough and capable of accomplishing this), to help one another, to provide for those that cannot provide for themselves.
This is where PRIVATE citizens come-in and HELP THOSE THAT NEED IT. FORCING PEOPLE to DO AS YOU PLEASE IS UN-AMERICAN!!!

I REPEAT UN-AMERICAN!! BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE DO NOT WANT THIS!!!



He assumes (typical) that EVERYONE can afford the most expensive healthcare in the world, and if they can't... OH WELL! Just don't take my dollar...
I assume nothing! I assume that you pay your own way, through college, in the grocery store, at restaurant, at the gym, at the movies....and AT PAYING YOUR OWN DAMN INSURANCE!!!




He consistently makes the point that polling supposedly PROVES that the American people don't want this, when you can find just as many polls saying that they actually do want it, but are just weary of how to pay for it.
Weary? How else are you to pay for this EINSTEIN IF NOT BY TAXING OR PRINTING PRESS?



There are also polls out there showing that people are torn about whether or not Hawaii is a state of the United States. Yeah, let's go by polls. Those are reliable.
Way to make an argument...bring up an unrelated side story. Next why not bring up that maybe a certain percent of the population believes the earth is flat.






More reliable is that for everyone of those 80/90%+ that on a poll said "I LOVE my healthcare
That's exactly WHY insurance works. Most people are not sick, and those that pay into it pay for those that are sick...you fool.




[edit on 15-8-2009 by Gateway]


Well you drive on the same road system as I do

Your computer is powered on a grid that I paid for

Your family is safe because I paid for the military that protects them

And forcing people is bad unless it is a draft-



or $6.00 gasoline
ala yer boys



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 02:54 AM
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Originally posted by mental modulator

No, it's about a 3 year 1.7 million dollar cancer bill that is on my family. It is about the death of my Grandmother who was denied an MRI and passed as a result of f-ing plaque. It is the notion that the "free market" approach has been tried for 40 years and purely profit motivated. All rigged to feed and grow off an unfortunate fact of life.


We all have issues, man. But conversely, I am thanking god that I had invested in my families coverage ( and gave up a lot of "fun" stuff for me)

When I needed my coverage -it came through with flying colors. Multiple MRI's, Multiple Cat Scans, X-rays body braces for my daughter, orthodontics, Orthopaedics, Neurosurgeons for my son.. ect.

I was able to pay for all of it. Due to my insurance coverage. Some of those services were NOT something I could wait for. NOT something that could be mired in bureaucratic red tape, or very long waiting periods.


I will fight just the same - not on the side of the Corporations...


With the lobbyist system we have now in Washington..How on God's green earth do you think Corporations are not behind this or at least on board with this push?



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 03:03 AM
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Originally posted by mental modulator


Well you drive on the same road system as I do
That's because I too also pay taxes, I should drive on these roads as well. But should I also not only PAY for my insurance BUT YOUR HEALTH CARE TOO?




Your computer is powered on a grid that I paid for
Yes I too have payed for it. But again, why should I PAY TWICE.




Your family is safe because I paid for the military that protects them
Yes, and isn't government doing such a great job at it? Stopping those evil IRAQIS from hating my freedom.


I can only imagine how great and efficient they'll run the medical system. Just look at HOW happy all those Vets are at the VETERAN'S HOSPITALS.




And forcing people is bad unless it is a draft-
Forcing anything on anyone is bad don't you think? If so, then you must agree that FORCING this legislation on A PUBLIC that does not want it is also BAD.



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