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Miracles: Can you help me understand?

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posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 03:55 PM
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Over thousands of years there have been people who "perform miracles". If I was to question Christ's followers I would interview them individualy, and try to get a "cops perspective" on what they have to say. First, there was little in the Christian faith that was very different from some previous "gods". I have to take into account peer preasure that railed against the Roman system which was brutal in the extreme. The sun god RA of the Egiptians was among the first to mention a one single all powerfull god, as opposed to a lot of little gods. But the one unique thing I see with Christ's teachings is the importance of compassion and mercy. Not just worship me or else.

I have always said if you believe in nothing, but try to live by Christ's principles, your not going to go wrong.




posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 04:10 PM
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Personally I believe Jesus was an initiate into various mystic arts, at the point of baptism his vibrational frequently was sufficiently purified enough to allow his higher self (the part of reality that manages our past,present and future lives for the purpose of gaining experience so we can be closer to god) was able to come down to earth as it were. Being born in a period of history that even remembers such an enlightened soul is against unimaginable odds.

And so, as a higher self incarnate Jesus knew the rules of reality and that everything manifest eminates from the unmanifest and the ultime tool for shaping reality is consciousness on many levels. Thus he could manupulate energy to a massive extent.



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 08:52 PM
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reply to post by Astyanax

See above.

Hmmmm, OK, let's see what's above.


So you preach me a sermon, but you can't actually counter my objections.

Pardon me, was this also addressed to me? I don't remember preaching a sermon.


Oh, so He's no respecter of persons in the sense that he bullies and brutalizes all, but not in the sense that he cares equally for all?

This sounds like you believe in some sort of evil god...


Yes, that sounds like the God of the Bible all right. A God born of the dreams and revenge-fantasies of very primitive, emotionally immature human beings.

... and this sounds like you believe there is no God at all.

None of it sounds pertinent to my post, where I simply explained that your (apparently) deeply held belief that miracles cannot happen could be responsible for your lack of seeing miracles.

Methinks you be a bit confused. May I suggest some meditation?

TheRedneck



posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 10:11 PM
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reply to post by Greenize
 


I don't see God as a lot of people do. I see God as a source that is inside of us and has nothing to do with us looking like God on the outside. I also think we never part from that source we have a connection with it all of our lives.

Faith, belief and true emotion are the keys to miracles. Not all miracles are instantaneous . Seeing the conections in our lives to events that have happened and lead us to events that happen is part of that processes of learning about miracles.

Never once did Jesus doubt before he did a miracle. He just knew in his heart and mind that what he wanted to happen would happen. Perhaps he said a silent prayer before he performed each one. The bible doesn't say.

Some times translations in the bible leave you lacking. This is the way one verse in the bible should of been translated.

All things that you ask straightly, directly fr om inside my name you will be given. So far you have not done this. Ask without hidden motive and be surrounded by your answer. Be enveloped by what you desire that your gladness be full.

Think of all the miracles Jesus performed in the bible not one of them was for himself. They were for the benefit of others.

Once you get the faith and belief down. To me its more than positive thinking. Positive thinking would be more like what you want or want to happen. Belief would be a unquestioning knowing that it will happen to me. Faith is knowing that God will deliever. This is my way of thinking it might not be everyones.

These are pretty easy to do once you start seeing the connections in your life to where you are in life. The hard one for people seems to be the emotion one. People seem to be lacking in true emotion for others. Oh they know the emotions for themselves but not how to feel for others. So they have a ill concieved notion of what emotion is.

For some reason we know the emotions of hate, fear, anger, and lust. Which tend to make the miracles that come our way in life the ones that we don't want. But the emtion we believe these things to happen is created by those emotions so we get just exactly what we believe. We have created an unwanted miracle. We had faith, belief and emotion.

If you say the word passion to people they usually think something along the lines dealing with love intense love for someone something. Passion really means suffering. Rember the movie the passion of Christ. It didn't mean the love of Christ it meant the suffering of Christ. Many people didn't understand that.

I was once told when you work on the inside and try to elevate your spiritual level and higher emotions the physical things you need to survive are put forth for you. I've found this to be a true statement. It might be because when you work on your spiritual side and see the connections of how you got to where you are in life you realize that a greater force is watching out for you and making sure you are taken care of. At this time you are learning what true emotion is.

This is the path that works for me. It might not work for everyone I don't know. Maybe we each have our own different paths for what we need to work on in life.



posted on Aug, 12 2009 @ 04:34 AM
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Originally posted by TheRedneck


Originally posted by Astyanax
So you preach me a sermon, but you can't actually counter my objections.

Pardon me, was this also addressed to me? I don't remember preaching a sermon.

No, but your confusion is pardonable.



Oh, so He's no respecter of persons in the sense that he bullies and brutalizes all, but not in the sense that he cares equally for all?

This sounds like you believe in some sort of evil god...

No, this is the God pause4thought believes in. Apparently his God is no respecter of persons when it comes to punishing people, but is a respecter of persons in the sense that He performs miracles, which are acts that unfairly privilege one person or group of persons over another. God is also known to have 'chosen' the Jews - respecting persons again - though opinion is divided on whether being 'chosen' by the Old Boy is a privilege or a misfortune. The history of the Jews strongly indicates the latter.



Yes, that sounds like the God of the Bible all right. A God born of the dreams and revenge-fantasies of very primitive, emotionally immature human beings.

...and this sounds like you believe there is no God at all.

No, it sounds as if I don't believe in the kind of gods human beings invent and bow down to. If there is a God, it is nothing anthropomorphic or even relevant to human concerns. Its interest in individual human prayers, petitions and welfare is plainly zero. Oh, and it has no morals.


None of it sounds pertinent to my post, where I simply explained that your (apparently) deeply held belief that miracles cannot happen could be responsible for your lack of seeing miracles.

I repeat: miracles represent the dreams and revenge-fantasies of very primitive, emotionally immature human beings. Of these, gods are born. Is the pertinence clear now, or do you require it spelled out further?


Methinks you be a bit confused. May I suggest some meditation?

The confused see confusion all around them. My sympathies.

[edit on 12/8/09 by Astyanax]



posted on Aug, 12 2009 @ 06:35 AM
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Originally posted by Astyanax
I repeat: miracles represent the dreams and revenge-fantasies of very primitive, emotionally immature human beings. Of these, gods are born. Is the pertinence clear now, or do you require it spelled out further?


How is that the case?



posted on Aug, 12 2009 @ 07:10 AM
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reply to post by Greenize
 



Autowrench:
Greetings, Greenize. That is it exactly. No need to be confused, I know this power is often attributed to Jesus and God and other deities, and to Satan at times, but it is just Orgone Energy, and it is there for anyone and everyone.



posted on Aug, 12 2009 @ 07:28 AM
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A couple of concepts which are central to this discussion are -


    Anthropomorphism

    ... is the attribution of human characteristics to non-human creatures and beings, natural and supernatural phenomena, material states and objects or abstract concepts. Subjects for anthropomorphism commonly include animals and plants depicted as creatures with human motivation able to reason and converse, forces of nature such as winds or the sun, components in games, unseen or unknown sources of chance, etc. Almost anything can be subject to anthropomorphism. The term derives from a combination of the Greek ánthrōpos, "human" and morphē, "shape" or "form".

    Source : Wikipedia



    inconceivable
      1. Impossible to comprehend or grasp fully: inconceivable folly; an inconceivable disaster.
      2. So unlikely or surprising as to have been thought impossible;
      3. unbelievable: an inconceivable victory against all odds.
      Source : theFreeDictionary.com

    When a person tries to understand the nature of God rationally it is just like trying to put the whole ocean into a teacup ...

    Absolutely impossible !



posted on Aug, 12 2009 @ 07:46 AM
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reply to post by Astyanax

No, but your confusion is pardonable.

Well, I must say I am pleased we see eye to eye on that point.

Usually, the phrase 'see above' means that the above is applicable to the addressed query. Apparently that meaning has been changed. Pardon me; I didn't get that memo.


No, this is the God pause4thought believes in.

Really? I find it absolutely amazing that you can know what pause4thought believes in to such a minute degree on the basis of a single post. That is an awesome power you have there, my friend. Pray tell, what am I thinking of right now?


No, it sounds as if I don't believe in the kind of gods human beings invent and bow down to. If there is a God, it is nothing anthropomorphic or even relevant to human concerns. Its interest in individual human prayers, petitions and welfare is plainly zero. Oh, and it has no morals.

While I could discuss the idea of God not being 'anthropomorphic' with you, I am again amazed by your ability to glean volumes of belief details and thoughts from not just other humans now, but even deities that you simultaneously claim do not exist:


I repeat: miracles represent the dreams and revenge-fantasies of very primitive, emotionally immature human beings. Of these, gods are born. Is the pertinence clear now, or do you require it spelled out further?

I believe you have made your position and the purpose of your post perfectly clear. You came across two posts that disagreed with your beliefs in a religious-themed thread. You responded to the one that was most religious in an effort to refute not just the claims in it, but the very beliefs of the poster. Then, since you didn't really consider this worth your time, you replied to my less religious but still too religious for you post with the two words 'see above'. After all, how could you be bothered to actually refute each post that bothered you?

Then, when confronted with the fact that the above reply referenced was inapplicable to anything I had said, you defended yourself by further trying to denigrate any belief in anything supernatural. To do so, you made assumptions of the other poster's intent, belief, religious practices, and thought processes. To make your point clear, you accuse me of confusion. And still, you have given no explanation or basis for your points.

You could save a lot of time and energy if you would simply copy and paste the following into all posts that contain the word 'Jesus' from now on:

"I, Astyanax, declare that I do not believe in any supernatural phenomena. Therefore, none of you are allowed to believe in such. I hereby demand everyone stop investigating or discussing any phenomena that I do not believe exists and wish that everyone would come around to my way of thinking since I am, by definition, smarter than you."

That would save you sooooo much trouble. Of course, there is also the option of not posting in threads where you do not even believe the premise of the thread... isn't that sort of like an Amish man barging into a TV shop? Oh, wait, nevermind that last suggestion. It would prevent you from being able to tell everyone around you about your religious views.


I do owe you a bit of an apology; I would normally have ignored your posts as the ramblings of someone who just didn't get it. But in this case, I decided to use them to demonstrate how terribly annoying it can be when someone starts shoving their religious views in my face. Oops, wait, isn't that the same complaint folks like you use against Christians?

Wow...

TheRedneck



posted on Aug, 12 2009 @ 02:16 PM
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i was dragged up in a catholic family. i lost my faith through teenage years. i then had a terrible time off it with the murder of my father 7 years ago. i ended up drinking to numb the pain. i then realised i couldnt stop drinking. i am an alcoholic. it almost killed me. then i tried to kill myself. at that point i didnt believe in anything and had stopped praying years ago. i needed help though.. i was on my knees. i could not walk with the atrophy of my muscles due to drinking and staying inside my flat for 7 months. i caught a glimpse of myself in a mirror and didnt see myself... i looked dead....
at that moment i asked out loud .. "if there is a god .. please help me now" ..
that was 4 years ago.. i have been sober since!!!!!!!
that was my miracle
think i needed to have one to believe in them though!!!!
love and light



posted on Aug, 12 2009 @ 02:24 PM
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The sun god RA of the Egiptians was among the first to mention a one single all powerfull god, as opposed to a lot of little gods. But the one unique thing I see with Christ's teachings is the importance of compassion and mercy.


Actually, speaking strictly from the perspective of this thread, Christ was also the first one (as far a I know) to insist - relentlessly so! - on the idea that not only he can do it (= things perceived as miraculous) but that EVERYONE could, and should, do it. (And he set forth the method to do so.)

But you are absolutely right in emphasising the value of his preaching unconditional com-passion and mercy (among other things). On a purely societal level it was a most revolutionary message - which it remains to this day.

So, yes, indeed: one could do far worse than subscribe to THAT part of the message, if nothing else.




[edit on 12-8-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Aug, 12 2009 @ 07:15 PM
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reply to post by pantherstar
 


Thank you for sharing your story! I am very very happy for you!!!



posted on Aug, 12 2009 @ 09:14 PM
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there is some very intelligent discussion going on in this thread

it is pretty "heavy"

so many people have different belief systems that work for them it is rather amazing to me.....so it is an individual thing based on beliefs

often ask yourself what are you willing to believe for your happiness like you deserve.....and darn it find it within your determination to believe that there is just a glimmer a glimmer inside you that could make this true........ a perspective that does and give yourself the option to find a way to take that perspective as an option What ever it takes as effeciently as you could.

could you be more willing to forgive yourself so you can move forward knowing you were only doing the best you knew how and that you are human and this world is difficult and everyone deserves forgiveness

visualize yourself somehow in the future happy.......demand it .....imagine yourslef in the this vision ....saying i don't know how the heck this pulled me here but it did..... .....you DONT have to know the ways that it is done.....you don't have to understand them.....just BELIEVE YOU HAVE A LOVING INTENT and despite your flaws you are human ....you deserve forgiveness and that it is non-negotiable.....give yourself the 'benefit of the question" as i like to say.....think positively more and more each day.......

*
when you get a belief system that is strong ....and you are happier.....remind yourself as a courtesy to yourself.....ask yourself at least once a week .....what am i willing to believe to see that i could be just a tad happier next year than this year....visualize yourself happy in the future and pull yourself toward it.......i would also ask...what can i do to give back ...to have option of forgiving others...the world is a tuff place and i am open to believe they deserve forginess and help like i did... i say things like this on occasion ....and i say it to the "universe" or ,spirit world , or higher dimensions of myself ...... or god ..whatever clicks



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 03:32 AM
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Originally posted by Majestic23


Originally posted by Astyanax
I repeat: miracles represent the dreams and revenge-fantasies of very primitive, emotionally immature human beings. Of these, gods are born. Is the pertinence clear now, or do you require it spelled out further?

How is that the case?

The utility of a god to a human lies precisely in the god's putative ability to transcend the boundaries of space and time and to traduce the laws of physics. In other words, to perform miracles. Miracles are a god's raison d'être.

* * *



Originally posted by TheRedneck
Usually, the phrase 'see above' means that the above is applicable to the addressed query.

And is normally used together with the assumption that the person addressed is capable, without minute instruction, of seeing which part of the above is applicable to the query.


I am again amazed by your ability to glean volumes of belief details and thoughts from not just other humans now, but even deities that you simultaneously claim do not exist.

Pause4thought's views were clearly articulated in his post.


I believe you have made your position and the purpose of your post perfectly clear... posts that disagreed with your beliefs... religious-themed thread... the very beliefs of the poster... After all, how could you be bothered...

Staff, where is that yawn smiley?

Pause4thought was responding to a post of mine. The same post, in fact, that you replied to. A post that does not attempt to impose my religious views on anyone but instead to explain why a good and loving God could not, in good conscience, perform miracles. A point in moral philosophy and nothing at all to do with my own beliefs, which do not apply here. The point applies to your post as well as pause4thought's.

Your post, with its deceitful attempt to redefine 'miracle' to mean 'unusually good luck', deserved no more than the two words it received - if that.

[edit on 13/8/09 by Astyanax]



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 06:02 AM
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I would like to add that I am not religious.. but spiritual. At the time of my miracle I did not believe in anything. I could not leave my home as I was so ill. I had been drinking every day for seven years. I can not explain how it happened and how i have stayed sober. But due to my experience I do believe in miracles. When my sister found out I was off the drink she told my mum .. "i give her three days" .. four sober years later I still dont understand it. I asked for help and I got it, without even believing in anything. Again I feel lucky that I had this experience as I would not be here to write this if I hadn't! I was on my way out. I could not have done it on my own. A higher power must have helped me.

love and light
ps



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 06:20 AM
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Originally posted by cpdaman
so many people have different belief systems that work for them it is rather amazing to me.....so it is an individual thing based on beliefs


It does look surprising, doesn't it?
But it may not be.

Personally I am leaning more and more towards the idea that the world, the entire Cosmos, really is - objectively is - what one MAKES it.
And that includes God.

I have written about this in the past, here (see also the next, explanatory post in that thread) and elsewhere, but at this point let me just mention once again the Sufis, alluded to in my first reply in this thread.
The Sufis believe that not only God created man in his/her (I am NOT being politically correct - perish the thought!
) image, but that vice versa is also true. (Which does NOT mean that God is fictitious - but it does mean that if you choose not to believe in God, God will not exist in your world. It is your choice: after all, you ARE the co-creator.)

You can learn more about that in the book I mentioned in the second reply.








[edit on 13-8-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 06:28 AM
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reply to post by Vanitas
 


I just noticed your signature... its beautiful! Thanks for the links too!





posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 06:44 AM
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reply to post by Greenize
 


Thank YOU, Greenize, for this wonderful opportunity to talk about things that really DO matter, for a change.



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:34 AM
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reply to post by pantherstar
 


Same here not religious but spiritual. In my opinion religion focuses on making the outside look like what it should be and seems to think the inside of a person just follows. When I believe you work on the inside and the outside just seems to follow along.

I defend the teachings of Jesus because he was trying to get people to work on the inside. He seems to me to see God in more of a spiritualist way than the OT God way religion is based on. When I say his teachings I better bring that down to just his words. The ones in red.



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 10:38 AM
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Miracles make no sense. But yet, that is what im supposed to think because im "being too rational". I think that has to be the biggst loada ... ive heard in a long time.

Because I can see that 1 apple + 1 apple gives me two apples. I cannot perform or see miracles?

If we have a God who performs miracles on a daily, personal level. Then what is their motives? To protect / love / care for us?

If so, then why not stop the holocaust?

No sense whatsoever.



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