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Miracles: Can you help me understand?

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posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 01:29 PM
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I know many of you do not believe in Jesus. I do and really do not wish to create an argument about religion! My beliefs are mine and yours are yours. I just seek understanding. Now on with the thread.


According to the scriptures Jesus went about the land healing the sick,feeding thousands with only a few fishes and loaves, raising the dead, pulling money from the mouth of a fish, walking on water...etc.... now when His disciples looked and acted all amazed, He told them not to be surprised that if they had faith even as small as a mustard seed, they could do the same and greater, He said they could tell the mountains to jump into the sea and they would obey... according to one of the lost books of the bible, when Jesus was a child he would make animals from mud/clay and animate them... How? Surely someone on this earth has had the tiniest bit of faith...why hasn't anyone else been able to do miracles?

Did Jesus have access to secret knowledge? If so what knowledge and whose?

Like in the old testament, the magicians mimicked nearly everything that God had Moses do? Is this maybe part of the same knowlege? Or was it all just trickery?

Why would He say we could do the same and more if only we believed? Is faith the same as postive thinking?

If secret knowlege, has it been lost over time?




posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 02:05 PM
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Order and read the book "The Holographic Universe" by Talbot, and it will shed light on your question.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 02:08 PM
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reply to post by OmegaPoint
 


Thank you, I will do that!!



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 02:26 PM
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reply to post by OmegaPoint
 


So have you animated any clay animals lately after reading the book?

It just seems like your suggesting useless reading if it had no creation of ANY faith, because faith would imply moving mountains and healing blind people.



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 02:55 PM
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How? Surely someone on this earth has had the tiniest bit of faith...why hasn't anyone else been able to do miracles?

Did Jesus have access to secret knowledge? If so what knowledge and whose?

Like in the old testament, the magicians mimicked nearly everything that God had Moses do? Is this maybe part of the same knowlege? Or was it all just trickery?

Why would He say we could do the same and more if only we believed? Is faith the same as postive thinking?

If secret knowlege, has it been lost over time?



Hello, Greenize.


Personally, I happen to believe that Christ's mission - or an essential part of it - was precisely to remind humans of their godly nature, of the fact that they are co-creators IN God - if not of good, then of evil. (Because that's what fear - the offspring of ignorance - breeds: evil.)

The knowledge he was referring to was - and remains - "secret" only insofar people rely on their RATIONAL mind to access the "facts" of this world and operate with them.

But the rational mind is not the cognitive organ of choice: it is only a processor of a certain stratum of data - and a feeble one at that.

As long as people refuse to simply BELIEVE that "miraculous" things - yes, even moving mountains, if need be, and more - can exist, they won't see any miracles; or if they see them, they won't believe them anyway.
It's quite simple, really - which is why Jesus expressed in very simple terms (see Mt 17:20 and many other instances).
But miracles do exist, people ARE able to perform them, and have been doing so since time immemorial.

One thing is certain (and I am speaking from experience, personal and observed): as long as "faith", not matter how "strong" it supposedly is, remains RATIONAL only, it can only perform a social function (preserving certain moral standards of interhuman solidarity etc.) - which is fine, considering mankind's wolfish nature, but that's NOT what Jesus - in my opinion - was talking about.

Everything he ever talks about is every human's PERSONAL liberation - through LOVE, the eros that connects, and thereby rules upon, everything living - and rediscovery of his/her godly nature.

The kind of faith that you need for that purpose can only be found in the HEART, not in the mind.

Now, the term "heart" is widely misunderstood, especially in the West. Which is why I like to recommend reading the Sufi take on it.
The Sufis are usually described as "Muslim mystics" - which they are, but you absolutely don't have to be a Muslim to adhere to their teachings, which are identical to Christ's in all the essential points.
(As a matter of fact, they insisted upon the fact that every person should find their way to God through the culture each individual was born within - i.e. they advised against converting to other religions - which made them very unpopular with many other Muslims, but that's a different story, albeit a very interesting one.)

So, try to focus on the knowledge accessible to your HEART, and operate through unshakable faith that comes - again - from that heart.
Children do that (some, not all); "simple" minds do that (some, not all); it's the sophisticated rational thinkers, who take pleasure - and ridiculous pride - in needlessly dissecting everything, who never see anything "miraculous" happen in their lives. No wonder they are so often bitter; Einstein knew better, and he was not bitter.


Exercise your heart and banish doubts from your rational mind.
Then you'll walk on water.













[edit on 9-8-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 04:38 PM
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reply to post by Vanitas
 


Thank you and that was beautifully said! I still don't understand, but I am trying... I want to!



posted on Aug, 8 2009 @ 11:47 PM
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reply to post by Greenize
 


That's just it, Greenize: you don't have to understand.

"Understanding" comes from the ratio, the part that will NEVER grasp the co-creative part of the human Mind - or if it does, the understanding (again, in my experience) tends to paralyse the creative power itself.

That's the only thing to understand. ;-)
The blueprint is entirely laid out in the New Testament itself.
(And don't let anyone beguile you with stories about the NT being incomplete: it doesn't matter because, as I said, all the essential points ARE there, and quite explicitly laid out.)

P.S. If you ever get interested in the Sufi understanding of the Heart and the Creative Imagination (which is, again, identical to some of Christ's essential teachings), I would recommend reading Henry Corbin's works, especially certain chapters in his book about Ibn Arabi.






[edit on 9-8-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 08:33 PM
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reply to post by Vanitas
 


I guess my next question would be how do you understand something without thinking about it? Are you saying just "feel" it?


[edit on 9-8-2009 by Greenize]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 08:47 PM
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reply to post by Greenize
 


I don't believe the bible should be interpreted literally. Just because it's written down, doesn't mean it happened. But instead, look at the lesson or moral they are trying to get across. It's just a book... and they're just stories (poorly written ones imo).

Sometimes I wonder if the Harry Potter novels will be regarded as truth in 1000 years. Hey it happened with Scientology didn't it?



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 08:56 PM
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Having faith is the only key.

Last winter I was driving a heavy vehicle through a snowy mountain pass and when I topped the hill the downgrade on the other side was very packed and icy, the vehicle began to slide, there was no breaking method that could slow it down, I didn't completely panic, as I really have no fear of death, but I am human and trapped in such a situation can literally scare you. I began to pick up speed, and I knew the vehicle was going to slide right off the road when I got to the turn at the bottom of the grade, there is simply no way to control a sliding heavy vehicle at that turn was a long steep drop off, I was considering jumping from the vehicle but I would have to jump out on the passenger side as I was sliding very near the guardrail on the driver side, to jump out there would mean a fall down a steep drop off on that side of the road, despite that I found that I really did not want to let go of the steering wheel, or remove my foot from the break peddle, it was as if I was voluntarily paralyzed.

The only thing I had left to do in those final seconds was pray for a miracle. And all I really got out was "Oh God, Oh God, Jesus help me"

As I got close to the bottom of that grade I could see black in the road, there was a patch of road that apparently had been exposed to enough sunlight in that spot to melt the ice and packed snow, when the wheels slid into that patch of road the breaks and wheels grabbed enough to allow me to stop that vehicle literally feet from sliding off a ledge which would have destroyed the vehicle, cargo and ended my life.

Was it a miracle?

Some may not believe it was, and offer logical explanations for it... But I have faith, and no doubt in my mind that it was indeed a miracle... My life was saved on that day, though I am not entirely sure what for, I will be forever grateful for it, and forever faithful.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 08:57 PM
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reply to post by Avarus
 


I can understand your view, therefore I don't want to argue, but. . . . it is easy to say that and ignore the things that have been found that prove that the Bible has validity. . . . Do you believe that miracles happen?



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 09:01 PM
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reply to post by Walkswithfish
 


Thank you for sharing your story! It does indeed sound like a miracle! I do believe in them, I am wondering how WE can perform them. . .




posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 09:17 PM
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The common perception of miracles and our knowledge of science is what holds us back, imho.

We have learned so much in the fields of physics and mathematics, that 'moving mountains' for instance just doesnt seem possible to us. Regardless how much faith one may have, it's very difficult to get that out of ones mind. Somewhere in the very deepest darkest depths of our minds we're all skeptics.

I think there were extraordinary ppl that could perform miracles during their time. However, within our time, there are very few, if any. We have simply gained too much knowledge to fully believe in the 'supernatural' things that we, as part of the great creator, can do.

I'm in no way condemning science. Science is great and has helped us prosper to ridiculous extents. However, I believe that it has also hindered us spiritually.


 
Posted Via ATS Mobile: m.abovetopsecret.com
 



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 09:19 PM
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reply to post by Greenize
 


Miracles are not for us to preform, they are for us to experience.

They are rare, but occur often enough for those of faith to see the higher power of God. Jesus was the son of God, he embodied God's powers. His miracles he preformed were his father's.

Pray for a miracle, you never know when one may happen.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 09:23 PM
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Howdy Greenize! Mind if I chime in on this?

Jesus said if you had faith as a mustard seed, you could say to a mountain "Be thou cast into the sea" and it would happen. I believe He was referring to knowledge we have indeed forgotten. In Genesis, after Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge, God proclaimed "Behold, now man is become as one of us". That was the specified reason why they were driven from the Garden, so that they would not eat from the Tree of Life again, and therefore would not live forever. Apparently something happened to mankind with that act of eating the fruit, something that made us dangerous. I don't believe we were dangerous to God (I simply don't give us that much credit), but rather I tend to believe it made us dangerous to ourselves.

After the banishment from the Garden (which can be seen as primarily a banishment from God's immediate presence), it was many generations before God again began interacting with humanity, via Noah. Even then, the interaction was more to save a segment of humanity to repopulate the earth than anything else. Eventually, God managed to interact with Abram (later renamed Abraham) in a personal way and to start the plan which would eventually lead to the birth, crucifixion, and resurrection of Jesus.

In all those decades of being separated from God's presence and guidance, we as a species have forgotten what we were created with: knowledge of faith and knowledge of God. Before the fall of Adam, man did not have to work to eat. Man was in full control of his environment. He had absolutely nothing to fear. Afterward, we see man cursed (by his own actions, not by God) by having to work to eat and losing such control of his environment... and of course, having to fear his current lack of power.

Jesus had a singular purpose: to allow man to be forgiven once and for all so God could interact directly with all men. But He also used His time on this planet to try and explain to us what we once knew, and what He really expected us to know. Many times in the New Testament, stories are told which show Jesus as agitated and frustrated at the "lack of faith" His disciples showed. He really seemed confused as to how we could have forgotten so much so quickly... at least that's the way I read it.

Since Jesus no longer resides on this planet in the physical sense, He has sent another spirit to help Him complete that secondary mission of showing us what we have forgotten. This spirit is called the Holy Spirit in the New Testament, and is the way we can receive knowledge and wisdom to allow us to accomplish what Jesus expected us to be able to do.

What that tells me is that we have the same spiritual authority He does. Notice I said spiritual authority. The physical body is still sinful and under the curse that Adam and Eve started, but our spirits are freed through acceptance of the Gospel (good news) of Jesus. That spirit has the authority to command the physical, because it was the spirit (of God) that made the physical in the first place, and He made us with authority over it as well.

In order to accomplish what Jesus said we could, in order to create miraculous feats in the physical realm, one must operate from the spiritual realm. Attempting to do anything from the physical realm is futile, since the physical realm does not give us any authority to accomplish such feats. And in order to operate from this spiritual realm, we must realize that the physical is only one manifestation of a greater reality. And to learn that greater reality, we must look back to the source of our spiritual creation.

TheRedneck



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 09:31 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 


Thank you! I appreciate your input. It makes perfect sense, but its like the more I learn the more confused I get! Does that make sense?



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 09:44 PM
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People live in eternal conflict between the competing hemispheres of your brain.

The left side wants to ask the pretty girl at the end of the bar to dance, the right side says she will never agree don't embarass yourself.

Lack of faith.

The left side wants that new leather jacket, the right says what are you a biker and a Rockefeller that thing costs way to much money.

Lack of faith.

You see the special on the menu at the restaurant and the left side says try it, it sounds really good. The right side says, but you love the chicken here, it won't be as good as the chicken get the chicken. You get the chicken and the people at the next table got the special and the smell of it alone makes you hate yourself for not trying it.

Lack of faith.

The faith isn't in Christ, or G-d, the faith is in yourself to end your endless eternal debate.

As a Christian you likely really do believe in Christ and G-d, and feel you have absolute faith, but when you pray to Christ or G-d most people who do don't have absolute faith that their prayers will be answered...they love to say G-d's will. In other words I am going to ask G-d or Christ for this or that in the form of a prayer or commune with him, but I don't have absolute faith that I deserve what I am asking them for, just like I didn't have absolute faith the girl would dance with me, or to get that new jacket, or to try the special at the resturaunt.

Your belief in Jesus and G-d is real, but your belief in yourself isn't real.

When you can succesfully become one with yourself, where there is no more argument and you have absolute faith in yourself and what you believe and what you want and feel it intently and totally with all your soul, mind and heart, then you can become one with the infinate universe and you can become one with the power of the inifinite universe and you can tap into that power to use it to manifest what you want in the infinite universe.

Then after you have blown your mind, shattered your illusion of reality for ever, feel guilty and horrible about what you have done, you can go for therapy and try real hard to convince yourself it never happened and to never do it again because you really just want to be human.

You like most people really just want to be human, and humans (99.999999999% of them) lack faith in themselves.

It's not about faith in Christ or G-d, though people do use their faith in Christ and G-d and talismans and spells and rituals to convince themselves it is possible for things to manifest in miraculous ways and attribute the results to those things instead of themselves.

It's really about faith in yourself, absolute faith.

Word of caution, open some doors in the universe and there is no going back.

Igrnorance is bliss, that's why most humans choose it!



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 09:49 PM
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reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


Hey, I totally understood what you just said! Thank you!!


That makes sense! And isn't there a scripture somewhere that says something about increasing knowlege will leave you troubled or something like that?



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 10:12 PM
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reply to post by Greenize

It makes sense if your learning is through physical means.

Someone above mentioned how hard it is for us to let go our physical selves and concentrate completely on the spiritual. I agree with them. Think of it this way: we are born as both spiritual and physical beings, existing in both realms simultaneously. Yet the first thing that happens is we are inundated by all these physical sense: sight, sound, heat, cold, touch, taste, smell, physical pain, and physical pleasure. In this avalanche of sensory input, we tend to forget that we are also spiritual and concentrate instead on the physical... after al, our bodies which deliver so much stimulus to us is physical. We learn that if we physically fall down, we experience physical pain. We learn that hot things produce physical pain. We learn that physical food can stimulate physical pleasure through taste and satiation. But what is there to teach us to experience the spiritual? Precious little!

So as we age and grow, we rely more and more on the immediate sensations of the physical and begin to ignore the more sublime spiritual. Thus, we lose that spiritual aspect that is the only way to regain our true power. In many cases, any attempt one may make to learn of the spiritual is met with sarcasm and ridicule (I have no doubt a few posters will be on here shortly to demonstrate this vividly). There is just so much that can draw us away from our spirituality.

Let me ask you to do something. Think long and hard about this one question before you answer: What do you fear? I ask this because we all tend to have fears that hold us back from the spiritual realm. Be it fear of losing a job or fear of government tyranny or fear of disaster or fear of losing control of one's life, we all share the simple trait of being afraid of something.

Whatever your answer is, that is the thing that is blocking you from learning your own inner power. Walkswithfish had a very poignant story that I am sure every truck driver can relate to; we have all had those types of things happen. What allowed his miracle to happen is evident to me:

Originally posted by Walkswithfish
The only thing I had left to do in those final seconds was pray for a miracle. And all I really got out was "Oh God, Oh God, Jesus help me"


At that point, he had released all fear and placed total and absolute faith in Jesus. By doing that, he was able to ignore the physical 'reality' of an imminent life-ending accident and instead focus on the spiritual reality that the accident could be avoided.

You know, several times in the New Testament it is recorded that Jesus saying "I am the way". That is true, but it is not because Jesus is selfish and has to have things His way; rather it is because only Jesus delivered the gift that allows us to come to understand the reality behind our spirituality, since He bridged the gap we placed between ourselves and God. Only by using that bridge can we learn our true potential and true value. Any other attempt to understand spirituality is fraught with danger of being shown a lie rather than the truth; there are evil as well as good spiritual beings. It would be like trying to study to become a doctor without going to an accredited med school; you would learn some things, and you would probably think you knew enough to practice medicine, but you would also probably kill or maim your patients, That is not arrogance or selfishness on the part of accredited med schools; rather it is a fact that they have the knowledge one needs to become a doctor.

So my answer is that you either are still rooted in the physical, probably by a fear you have not even realized is holding you there, or you are trying to navigate the spiritual realm without a proper guide.

TheRedneck



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 10:26 PM
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Interesting that you ask about my fears. I am not answering that outloud, but it leads me to another question. How does one overcome their fears in an effort or progress on the spiritual path?



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