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Miracles: Can you help me understand?

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posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 10:56 PM
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Originally posted by Greenize
I know many of you do not believe in Jesus. I do and really do not wish to create an argument about religion! My beliefs are mine and yours are yours. I just seek understanding. Now on with the thread.


Autowrench:
Thank you for that.


According to the scriptures Jesus went about the land healing the sick,feeding thousands with only a few fishes and loaves, raising the dead, pulling money from the mouth of a fish, walking on water...etc.... now when His disciples looked and acted all amazed, He told them not to be surprised that if they had faith even as small as a mustard seed, they could do the same and greater, He said they could tell the mountains to jump into the sea and they would obey... according to one of the lost books of the bible, when Jesus was a child he would make animals from mud/clay and animate them... How? Surely someone on this earth has had the tiniest bit of faith...why hasn't anyone else been able to do miracles?


Autowrench:
Remember now, Jesus went to Egypt as a small child, and spent a lot of time there. Certainly he was inducted into the High Magick of the day, just like Moses was. At one time, believe it or not, we all had these powers. We lost them. When Jesus said " if they had faith even as small as a mustard seed, they could do the same and greater..." what he meant was personal faith, faith in one's self. We are the Power, people never forget that. Together, we are a power to be reckoned with.


Did Jesus have access to secret knowledge? If so what knowledge and whose?


Autowrench:
Yes, he did. whose knowledge was it? good question. We know that mankind is a very old concept, and that this cyclic life/death program has been going on for a very long time now. We also know that some people are driven to attain knowledge of a higher order, shall we say. This is the basis of secret societies, that they are in possession of secrets that no one else knows. This knowledge seems to stay with mankind, or is given to mankind. In today's age of education and knowledge any and all information is available to a seeker. It is a path few will follow, difficult to learn and remember, but once attained, one can walk a higher path. Many have done this, their names are recorded in history. Solomon,(the Keys) Moses, (The Sixth and Seventh Books of Moses) Doctor Johannes Faust, The Secret Grimoire of Turiel, and others.



Like in the old testament, the magicians mimicked nearly everything that God had Moses do? Is this maybe part of the same knowlege? Or was it all just trickery?


Autowrench:
Of course they did, they all had access to the same knowledge, after all. I know what you are thinking, where did the power come from? According to Wilhelm Reich, www.mystical-www.co.uk... orgone energy is a primordial cosmic energy. It ils universally present and can be demonstrated visually, thermically, electroscopically and by means of Geiger-Mueller counters. In the living organism: Chi-energy, Bio-energy,Prana. Throughout human history, humans have used Life Force for many purposes. This use of life force was result of practical experience. Being one of the first technologies of humankind, it naturally became part of humans' religious belief systems and magick, very similar to the use of fire, the making of metals, and natural phenomena. Therefore, most of the time the practical application of life force was linked closely to the religious creed of the culture where it was used. In other words: to its magick. Learning to manipulate this energy is what doing magick is all about. By the way, this is the power the New World Order uses.


Why would He say we could do the same and more if only we believed? Is faith the same as postive thinking?


Autowrench:
Because you can. Friend, you can do anything you wish to do. The mind is a most powerful thing, and if properly trained, can create matter from thought, or remove matter from sight. It is electromagnetic energy at specific frequencies that do this. Soon we will all be able to do this.


If secret knowlege, has it been lost over time?


Autowrench:
Not lost, friend, "kept" is the word. Through certain training and learning, I have attained some of this hidden, and forbidden knowledge. I like to tell others about it see, for in my view, everyone has a right to know everything.




posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 10:59 PM
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Originally posted by Greenize
reply to post by ProtoplasmicTraveler
 


Hey, I totally understood what you just said! Thank you!!


That makes sense! And isn't there a scripture somewhere that says something about increasing knowlege will leave you troubled or something like that?


I can't honestly say the furthest I got with scripture "Was in the beginning, G-d said let there be light", I put the book down and turned off the light and went to sleep!

I have always taken a self discovery path to learning and understanding life and the universe.

Basically I liken it more or less to this an infant first learns to crawl, then slowly and tentatively to walk knowing that to stumble and fall hurts, then to learn how to run knowing that it hurts to stumble and fall.

I like to think humans are in their evolutionary infancy, learning to crawl so to speak, to feel their way around in the dark. In many ways I feel religious scripture has kept humans in a prolonged infancy as instead of learning to feel their way around in the dark and pull themselves up to walk they have spend thousands of years just trying to figure out what scripture really means and arguing about it and basically getting no where in the process.

From passages of scriptures I have read in encyclopedias and in novels and such it appears there are some real clues embedded in scripture but it appears to me to be overall written in such a vague and often conflicting way that it really isn't coherent or concise, which is why people who immerse themselves in it and follow it are constantly engaged in figuring out what it means and arguing with each other about it.

I don't mean to offend anyone but it seems to be a repressive instrument and not a progressive instrument and casts more confusion than it does enlightenment on the universe and human's inherent roll and capabilities in it.

I can tell you there are more things in the heavens and on the earth though than most people dream or dare to imagine.

I also liken it to this when it comes to humans reaching their full potential.
A child first gets a dart gun with suction cups on the end of the projectiles. They can't really hurt anything with it. Then when they get a little older they get a pellet gun that shoots little rubber bee bee's it might be able to knock over or break a glass. When they get a little older they get a bee bee gun with metal bee bees. They have to learn and prove they can be responsible with it, they could put out an eye if they use it incorrectly or play with it. Eventually they get a .22 caliber rifle and start target shooting. If they enjoy the sport and are so inclined once they demonstrate a certain level of proficiency they get a .306 and learn to hunt and kill animals. When the reach adult hood they get a M-16 Automatic Weapon a Metal Helmet and a Flak Jacket and are now ready to kill humans.

If as an infant (think of humans as being infants) you had the power to move mountains without the wisdom, love, or self discipline to move them only for the betterment of the universe, well you could end up destroying the universe.

Think of a school bus, its speedometer and engine can go up to 105 miles per hour, but the county put a Governor on it to make sure it can't go over 55 to prevent the driver from speeding and hurting someone with the bus or on the bus being reckless.

You have a Governor on you, humans have a Governor on you. The restriction eases and humans evolve when they learn how to love with wisdom and compassion and can self discipline them selves in that way.

Look around, the world isn't there yet, and 2,000 years of scripture has not really gotten it any closer.


[edit on 9/8/09 by ProtoplasmicTraveler]



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 11:05 PM
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reply to post by autowrench
 


Thank you for the response!

Is it then this energy that is tapped into say for instance when a person in a crisis lifts something that out weighs them by hundreds of pounds? Lame question maybe, but I am trying to understand. I have read so many books and still feel like I have no concept of anything. It is very frustrating at times.



posted on Aug, 9 2009 @ 11:31 PM
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I experianced a Miracle just a few weeks ago,
When i was 30 i had to have spinal surgery for a shattered disk and ever since then i have had very frequent problems with my sciatic nerve. when it goes i am in agony and cant walk for days to weeks, last time it was 3 months and the doctors can't do anything about it..
I have 2 young sons that i look after.
anyway about 3 weeks ago my back started to get sore, then the sciatic nerve kicked in and i was in agony on the floor for a few hours, my boys where screaming (I couldnt help them) the wife was at work and i was in tears..
all i could do was pray.. I prayed for forgiveness for every wrong i have ever done to anyone and prayed for help, i wasn't praying for me it was to help my kids.. Well it was like a switch had been flicked, the pain just stopped and hasn't returned! when you experiance something like that you are never the same again.....



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 12:06 AM
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Miracles can be explained as quantum manifestations of the observers power to manipulate matter at a sub-atomic level. As being observers and processors of the Universe, we have the ability to create. IE we are part of the "God" itself.



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 12:20 AM
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reply to post by Greenize
 


You lost me when you started talking about one of the lost books of the bible, you know some of these books were lost for a reason, because they were false in ancient times and are still false today, but to answer your question, the reason we don't see miracles today like we did in Jesus time is because there is a lack of faith, I would say most today can't comprehend what faith is, maybe because they were never properly taught what it was, I don't know, but miracles still happen, the reason you don't see 1 person moving mountains is because a person of great faith can only do God's will, if their will is aligned with God's will then no matter what they seek to accomplish it will take place, and I seriously doubt God wants 1 guy to move a mountain, that would literally serve no purpose, he would be considered a witch, a magician, a devil, a god, the miracles must serve God's purpose which further his work, and not give glory to man, they can be simple, but my opinion, any appearance of the virgin mary is not a miracle, any scholar of the Bible will admit, mary was a good parent to the Christ, but she was never meant to be worshiped, thus her appearance must be a false vision, this is my opinion, visions are not something to be seen in a tabloid front page, they are of the nature of changing someone's heart toward God, such miracles were not meant to draw crowds, they are meant for the individual and not to be paraded about like a circus, the reason Jesus' miracles were so apparent was to show those with no spirituality that he was the Son of God, but even they needed to have faith to know this was true no matter how many miracles they witnessed.



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 02:20 AM
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Hi Greenize, It's just my opinion of course but I want to offer that you ARE a miracle. You have a soul, you can think, you can reason, you can feel, you can choose, you can act. Why would a person think to perform a miracle when they ARE ONE. Once you know without a doubt that you are a piece of God, there will be no question as to does God exist .
You ARE , because he is and he is because you ARE.
This is the miracle. A hundred years ago ,people didnt think to do remote viewing or OBE's. Now its common actually. Healing is a miracle and so is Love. If you give Love to someone who had none, then you have in essence performed a miracle.
Just as you cannot take anything out of an empty basket, you cannot perform a miracle until you realize you ARE one. Respectfully, Magantice



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 03:08 AM
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Hi Greenize
Your answer lies in the very first book of the Bible, about Adam and Eve. God created Adam, He then took a part from (or divided) Adam and made Eve. Adam and Eve were required to undergo a test, which they failed. They then 'fell' into a human existence of birth, death and rebirth. This is the story of you, me and every human who has walked the earth. When Adam was whole, before the test (both 'his'male and female aspects were in perfect balance) he was a perfect, sexless, immortal being and as such was beyond the control of nature, and in fact such a one (as Jesus) is in control of nature, i.e. such a being can control the elements (elementals) of nature, and the elementals MUST obey their commands.
This is what Jesus meant when he said that we can do the same things as him. But first we must make ourselves perfect again (as we were before we failed our test) by bringing our male and female aspects back into perfect balance. Then we too are perfected, sexless, immortal beings and able to command the mountains to move.
I highly recommend the bookThinking and Destiny. This book is over 1000 pages of incredible information about the human condition, and can be read online, but for serious study, a hard copy is invaluable.



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 03:29 AM
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Miracles don't happen. Never mind the scientific reasons why they don't. Just think about this: a miracle must always favour someone - the beneficiary - over someone else. How do you think the owner of the Gadarene swine must have felt? Or the drowned fisherman's wife when she saw the man walk on water? It is said in the Bible that God is no respecter of persons. If that is true, and He truly loves His children, there can be no miracles.



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 04:18 AM
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reply to post by Astyanax
 


Hi Asty! Long time no see.



Miracles don't happen.

One begs to differ. Miracles don't happen very often.

They only happen for a reason.

It's your a priori atheist position that has led you to to your assertion that sounds like in your mind a negative has been proven. But you know full well it hasn't, because it can't be done.

Acceptance of Christ's miracles go hand in hand with acceptance of who he is. If someone does not believe he is who he claimed to be they find his miraculous deeds unbelievable. But seeing as neither you nor I were there at the time of the events recorded in the New Testament we can only examine the evidence and come away with our own conclusions.

If Christ is who he claimed to be the miracles he performed are peanuts. Those who believe and follow him believe that he himself personally constitutes one of God's greatest miracles: the infinite, eternal God contracted to a span. The creator of time, space, matter, the laws of physics and designer and maker of all things living - himself become a man.

To reveal that which man is unable to fathom God performed the unfathomable.

Not only to reveal, but to attain a reconciliation.

Man being so utterly blind to the evidence of his creator screaming at him from without and within, God did what man has always longed for: showed himself.

Now as to your objections based on what you perceive as your ability to judge God I am not even going to give them the time of day. If you genuinely want answers to such trifling questions all you need to do is study the Bible with a genuinely enquiring, but humble mind.

One thing I will say. God is no respecter of persons in this sense: he justly condemns everyone who has broken his law, written both in his commandments and in men's consciences, no matter who they are, pauper or President. His desire is that people learn to love what is right above their natural inclinations, which they can only do when they see Him for who he truly is. Which is why he came to this world in the person of Jesus Christ. The aim being to deliver people from condemnation no matter who they are, pauper or President.

Man being so utterly blind to his creator speaking to him directly, face to face, he did what man has always longed for: hinted at what he can do.

The irony is that when Christ opened the eyes of people born blind, turned water into wine, walked on water and stopped the wind and the waves he was showing unutterable restraint, yet people still react by saying 'that's impossible'!!

Which is why the miracles were not demonstrations of what God can do, but acts of kindness designed to reveal one thing: who Christ is.



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 08:04 AM
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reply to post by Greenize

How does one overcome their fears in an effort or progress on the spiritual path?

Ah, there is the problem. How does one overcome fears?

I really wish there were a set of instructions I could give you for that; I really wish there were a set of instructions I could use myself to overcome fear. Unfortunately, I have found none. If there are, someone please post them. I could use the help!


All I can do on this subject is to give a few general guidelines: fear is usually based more on concern for possible future events. We call it 'worry'. We all worry about paying the bills, what about paying for the kids' education, what happens if my car dies and I can't pay to have it fixed, what happens if I get fired or laid off, what happens if my house burns down, if it floods, if there's a tornado... etc., etc., etc. I have heard it said that worry is fear of what if, and I think that is true.

Think back to when you were a child. You had fears and worries then, too, although they probably seem silly now. I know I did. But as I grew I realized how silly those worries were; I had two parents who would never let anything bad happen to me. The problem was that I wasn't focusing on that fact so I could enjoy myself completely. I did not realize the power my parents had to take care of any problems that came up.

Once I became a parent, I realized completely how worry-free my younger years should have been. There is no Hell I would not wade through, nothing I wouldn't fight, no pain I would not endure to protect my children, and I know now that my parents felt just as strongly toward me. I just couldn't comprehend that level of love back then, and therefore was afraid of things I should not have been afraid of.

I will relate something here that I learned in my life, and that I have told my children many times in an attempt to let them maybe understand this more than I did: Love comes in levels. Each level is many times more intense than the level below it. One can only understand a level they are at; they can only imagine one level above. The first level is the love a child has for a pet. The second level is the love a child has for a parent. Third level is the love a person has for a spouse. Fourth level is the love a parent has for a child, and is the highest level a physical human can achieve. There is, however, a fifth level than no man can understand, but can only imagine: the love God has for us. But we can imagine it when we reach the fourth level.

Now I try to focus on that fifth level of love. I know there is a God who watches over me and protects me, if I will listen to His instructions. After all, can a parent protect a child who insists on grabbing a hot stove? No. But a parent can make it difficult to grab that stove and can tell a child not to grab it. So can God make things hard for us to do those things we should not do, and so can God tell us, either via conscience or that still small voice that pops into one's head from time to time when we are heading into trouble. All we need do is listen.

When I realize I am becoming afraid of something, I simply focus on that lesson learned many years ago: someday when I understand more, I will be able to look back on this period of my existence and realize just how silly my fears were. And I would rather not see when I look back that those silly fears stopped me from experiencing my existence fully. That's what it means to keep your eyes on God.

One more note, addressing an almost universal fear: years ago when I was a small child, I had an especially nasty case of the flu. As with the times, I was not really under a doctor's care. Back then, people handled illness at home as best they could and only called a doctor in if there was a serious problem. Anyway, I remember lying in my bed and not feeling too bad, just tired. I felt better than I had in days. My mother came in and popped that old thermometer into my mouth and left. I was so tired I didn't do anything but open and close my mouth to allow it. I just wanted to lie there and rest.

A few moments later she came back in and pulled the thermometer out. As soon as she looked at it, she screamed. Not just a yell; she screamed! My father came running and met her in the bathroom across the hall, where she was frantically grabbing for the alcohol. I was shocked; what was wrong? So I tried to ask them what was going on, but I couldn't talk. My mouth would not work, my tongue would not work, I couldn't get my lungs to exhale. So I tried to get out of bed. My legs would not work. Nothing would work. I had absolutely no control over my body. I couldn't even move my eyes, but the way things were laid out I could see my parents hurrying back to me with rags and alcohol.

Then the weirdest thing happened: I started going up. Rising. My view became more of one from above them, and I could divert my eyes again. I looked down and saw my body lying there, with me not in it. I saw them throw the covers back and wash my body down with alcohol to cool down a fever. I knew what they were doing (it was a common practice if the fever got too high), but I didn't understand why; I still felt fine!

I hovered there for a few moments, then slowly started floating down. I didn't choose to any more than I chose to float up; it just happened. Once I was all the way down, I could move and feel again. I finally got to ask what was wrong and found out my fever was 108°F. According to the doctors I have talked to since, you're not supposed to live after a fever that high.

Since that day I have known that physical death is not a final end. I know it doesn't hurt. So, like Walkswithfish, I do not fear death. I try to avoid it, as I feel that I have a purpose to accomplish here in this realm before I am ready for the next one. When I am ready, God will let me know.

But fear it? NO.

I hope this helps you some.

TheRedneck



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 08:16 AM
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reply to post by Astyanax

Miracles don't happen.

You forgot one part of that statement. Perhaps it would be more appropriate if you had written: "Miracles don't happen to me".

I have seen plenty of miracles happen in my life. A miracle doesn't have to be fire coming down from the heavens to swallow up your enemies, or the ocean parting before you so you can walk to Hawaii. A miracle can be a sudden unexpected windfall that is exactly what you need to accomplish something important. A miracle can be a tornado tearing up your street and somehow missing one house: yours. A miracle can be a car breaking down to keep you from going into town where a major accident is about to happen. A miracle can be a semi straddling a 20-foot drop with the wheels hanging in midair but not falling. It can even be three days of rain falling everywhere around you but not on you, so a new mobile home can be moved in when you need it. It can even be an emergency that requires one to drive away from a nice deserved rest stop so that huge ice storm doesn't hit them.

Miracles happen to me.

It is extremely difficult to see something you refuse to believe in. A group of hikers who adamantly believe there is no Bigfoot could walk through a Bigfoot mating ritual ground during an orgy and see nothing. A person who adamantly believes there are no UFOs could be abducted and never see the UFO.

And a person who adamantly believes miracles don't happen could witness the parting of the Red Sea with a fireworks show and never realize anything out of the ordinary was happening.

TheRedneck



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 08:38 AM
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[
And a person who adamantly believes miracles don't happen could witness the parting of the Red Sea with a fireworks show and never realize anything out of the ordinary was happening.



Exactly.

But the saddest part, as I see it, is that many people who participate in such debates, including this thread, more often than not don't even read the posts of those who think differently, let alone try to empathise with people whose experiences are different from theirs. They come here to voice their opinion, without paying any attention whatsoever to other people's thoughts on the subject before doing so.

No wonder so many potentially worthy threads end up dead and buried.



[edit on 10-8-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 09:41 AM
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reply to post by Greenize
 


Autowrench:
Yes, it is frustrating at times, isn't it? This is exactly the energy used in a crisis situation like you spoke of. I have heard of this many times, a story I heard as a child about 4 American soldiers in Italy in a jeep runs into an ambush...they all jump out, grab the jeep and turn it around to escape. Later when being questioned about this, they offer to do it again, and cannot begin to lift the jeep. There are other factors here too. Here is something that happened to me when I was 17 years old. I was working in a service station under a grease rack, I was changing out the clutch in a 66 Buick car. I heard, either out loud, or in my head, a loud cracking sound. Something told me that what I was hearing was the safety catch that held the hoist up. I "felt" a great burst of energy that went right through me, from head to feet. Suddenly, hands came out of nowhere and grabbed me, slamming me against the wall as the car fell and bounced three times. My buddy working nearby saw the hands too. He must have asked me a thousand time whose hands that was.This has always sort of freaked me out, for I know not what or why this happened.
This is but one things that could be called "unusual" that has, and continues to happen to me.



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 09:49 AM
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reply to post by autowrench
 


Those were no miracles, of course: they were "simply" examples of perfectly natural human abilities (which, yes, include omniscience, such as demonstrated in your case).

But I am very glad you posted your experience.

Maybe with more people attesting such things the "collective consciousness" might, in time, finally stop resisting the awareness of such abilities.

P.S. Sorry, I seem to have missed the mention of those mysterious hands (even though I read your post three times). Oh well - I'll leave my original reply as it is...


Very interesting, I must say.











[edit on 10-8-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 09:53 AM
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reply to post by Razimus
 

You lost me when you started talking about one of the lost books of the bible, you know some of these books were lost for a reason, because they were false in ancient times and are still false today...


Autowrench:

You now, I just love it when someone posts that some ancient text is false. How do you know this? Were you there, a witness to the facts? Were you present when the books were written, and have personal knowledge that they were in fact false? You statement states a fact that is not a fact.

That being said, I have read a few of these lost gospels, and many other ancient writings too. I can see why some were not in the Holy Bible, for they show a direct way to God without a Priest or a church...something the church cannot have. When are your people going to wake up to the fact that the Bible is not the only truth, or the complete truth, on anything?



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 10:10 AM
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reply to post by Greenize
 


Hey Greenize, When the jack slips and a car falls on the husband, the wife runs out and lifts it right off of him. Im sure you've heard those kinds of stories. The miracle is not that she did it but that it never occured to her that she couldnt. Perhaps chris angel can levitate because it never occured to him that he couldn't. BELIEVE in yourself and know that God has and will allow mortal humans to perform miracles.



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 06:23 PM
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Thank you for sharing the wonderful stories! I do believe in miracles. I always have and these stories only strengthen that belief! I think that problem I am having is the "believing in oneself" thing. I have never really been one of much self confidence. I guess I should start there.



posted on Aug, 10 2009 @ 06:43 PM
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Originally posted by Dzlr40
I experianced a Miracle just a few weeks ago,
When i was 30 i had to have spinal surgery for a shattered disk and ever since then i have had very frequent problems with my sciatic nerve. when it goes i am in agony and cant walk for days to weeks, last time it was 3 months and the doctors can't do anything about it..
I have 2 young sons that i look after.
anyway about 3 weeks ago my back started to get sore, then the sciatic nerve kicked in and i was in agony on the floor for a few hours, my boys where screaming (I couldnt help them) the wife was at work and i was in tears..
all i could do was pray.. I prayed for forgiveness for every wrong i have ever done to anyone and prayed for help, i wasn't praying for me it was to help my kids.. Well it was like a switch had been flicked, the pain just stopped and hasn't returned! when you experiance something like that you are never the same again.....





posted on Aug, 11 2009 @ 02:01 AM
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reply to post by pause4thought
 


Now as to your objections based on what you perceive as your ability to judge God I am not even going to give them the time of day. If you genuinely want answers to such trifling questions all you need to do is study the Bible with a genuinely enquiring, but humble mind.

So you preach me a sermon, but you can't actually counter my objections.


God is no respecter of persons in this sense: he justly condemns everyone who has broken his law, written both in his commandments and in men's consciences, no matter who they are, pauper or President.

Oh, so He's no respecter of persons in the sense that he bullies and brutalizes all, but not in the sense that he cares equally for all?

Yes, that sounds like the God of the Bible all right. A God born of the dreams and revenge-fantasies of very primitive, emotionally immature human beings.

* * *


reply to post by TheRedneck
 

See above.




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