It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.
Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.
Thank you.
Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.
And is normally used together with the assumption that the person addressed is capable, without minute instruction, of seeing which part of the above is applicable to the query.
Your post, with its deceitful attempt to redefine 'miracle' to mean 'unusually good luck', deserved no more than the two words it received - if that.
Words, as is well known, are great foes of reality. - Conrad
Originally posted by Astyanax
Originally posted by Majestic23
Originally posted by Astyanax
I repeat: miracles represent the dreams and revenge-fantasies of very primitive, emotionally immature human beings. Of these, gods are born. Is the pertinence clear now, or do you require it spelled out further?
How is that the case?
The utility of a god to a human lies precisely in the god's putative ability to transcend the boundaries of space and time and to traduce the laws of physics. In other words, to perform miracles. Miracles are a god's raison d'être.
[edit on 13/8/09 by Astyanax]
Originally posted by Toughiv
reply to post by Greenize
"but there were miracles happening during that tragic event" - Your belief that these things were divine intervention astounds me.
When it comes to that woman being search, how you know the guards werent getting cold and wanted to hurry things along, so searched the majority not all, maybe they were tired, or maybe she acted in such a way that she didnt draw their attention.
i see the immediate response of "god done it" rather childish. Somethings are just chance. If i flip a coin and i rolls and then lands standing up, is that a miracle?! or just highly unlikely?
What determines the difference between a miracle and pot luck?
In my view, a miracle is any happening or circumstance which is so highly unlikely as to be incapable of being ascribed to simple chance without stretching the bounds of reasonable thinking, and which has a lasting beneficial effect on someone who was anticipating a divine intervention in line with said event.
miracle noun an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.
Originally posted by Majestic23
I meant, why do [gods] represent dreams and revenge fantasies [as you said]?
I would argue the "utility" of a God to a human is not but allowing existance and being wise and loving beyond human comprehension, I think most every religious person in the world would say the same.
You sound like you are describing a superhero.
Originally posted by Astyanax
That is their function, though I should have added 'desires' to the list. We construct gods for many reasons, but central to all of them is the ability to perform miracles, to wield or repeal the forces of nature in our favour.
Originally posted by Astyanax
Heroes - the word comes from the Greek - were in mythology the sons of gods. So yes, gods are superheroes.
Originally posted by AstyanaxNo need to excoriate me for being present at the sacrament in a spirit of unbelief; I shall take my leave of you here.
Originally posted by AstyanaxIt is now clear from Greenize's posts that her intention for the thread was a discussion of 'personal miracles'. Perhaps the title could have been chosen more carefully - it sounds as if the OP really wants to discuss the character of miracles - miracles as defined in the usual way, not simply as 'good luck' or 'answered prayers'.
Originally posted by Majestic23
What this idea takes no account of is the fact that people who could geniunley perform feat miracles have said over and over again, anyone can do this its all about belief and perspective.
Strange this architype is so prevalent through time.
So really we need to be looking at miracles as manipulation of energy. Thats all it comes down to. The only thing that stops us is the apparent restrictions physics puts on us. There is growing evidence to suggest that such rules are more illusions that anything else.
Being a skeptic inhibits learning and the idea that man doesant need spiritual warmth even in such a warped form as organised religion for any other reason than a psychological comfort blanket it just plain incorrect. We are spiritual beings and are connected with the divine in innumerable ways.
But the definition is irrelevant you see.
We often hear about Tibetan monks performing miraclous feats like running in excess of 60mph.
We hear of Saints levitating.
We hear of superhuman strength in people enduring stressful events.
We hear of million to one odds occouring through prayer.
Its all the same thing, manipulation of energy, humans have power beyond anything we have yet to realise and we are in effect gods.
Its just that we are separeted from the gnosis we need to attain such powers (for good reason most likely).
I mean, imagine you got the abilitiy to fly today.
Originally posted by Astyanax
Nobody can, nor has ever been able to, perform miracles. Miracles are a self-serving figment of superstitious people's imaginations.
Originally posted by Astyanax Not really. As Mr. Barnum said, there's one born every minute. If wishes were horses, etc...
Originally posted by Astyanax Not at all. Miracles are more than the 'manipulation of energy'. Miracles are traductions of the laws of physics.
Originally posted by AstyanaxAnd the evidential support for this wildly improbable opinion is...?
Originally posted by AstyanaxSee my signature. Try to understand it, unlike that other fellow who mishandled the point so badly he ended up impaling himself on it.
Originally posted by AstyanaxYou mean you actually believe stuff like this? I've been to plenty of Tibetan Buddhist monasteries. The thing that impressed me most was the wet snotty unison snorts in between the chanting. 'Dammang-saranang - snoorrrrrkle! - gatcchameee!. The sound of fifty Yellow Hat monks simultaneously inhaling the contents of their sinuses is one never to be forgotten (everyone has a runny nose in the Himalayas).
Originally posted by AstyanaxYeah, there was one famous fourteenth century one and God held his robe closed for him so that people couldn't look up and see his private parts while he flew. St. Bernard of some place or the other. Italy, 14th century. Look it up. You don't actually believe this kind of fairytale, do you?.
Originally posted by AstyanaxThat's not a miracle.
Originally posted by AstyanaxYes, but it never actually happens, does it? It's all just bluff and blague. Prayers are never answered except by coincidence. Amputees never re-grow their limbs. Auntie Myrtle gets healed by the tentshow pastor and walks, next morning she's back in the wheelchair again.
Originally posted by AstyanaxYeh yeh yeh. That's why we're turning wine into water all the time. Oops, sorry, that's not a miracle. Water into wine's a miracle, but nobody can do that. Guess why.
Originally posted by Astyanax
Again I ask - do you, presumably an adult with some powers of intellect and discrimination, actually believe this stuff? Seriously?
Originally posted by Astyanax I blow my gnosis and all kinds of whatziz come out. But I wash it all away with Sophia and water. It makes a nice bubbly Sephiroth.
Originally posted by AstyanaxBusiness for me always. First class if somebody else is paying.