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Miracles: Can you help me understand?

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posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 02:35 PM
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reply to post by Astyanax

And is normally used together with the assumption that the person addressed is capable, without minute instruction, of seeing which part of the above is applicable to the query.

Sorry, we lesser beings don't have the gift of reading minds you do. You'll just have to press a few more keys on that keyboard next time you want to make a message clear.



Your post, with its deceitful attempt to redefine 'miracle' to mean 'unusually good luck', deserved no more than the two words it received - if that.

Oh, I doubt it even deserved that.

I have to admit, though, the fact that you credited it those two words has led to this wonderful discussion we have had. I really do enjoy seeing how others react to differing opinions, and ATS is an exceptionally good place to research human behavior in that manner. So thank you for allowing me to see the inconsistencies and wordplay you employ to make yourself feel important to such an intimate extent. It's been a million laughs!


Keep that "mind firmly closed". This is degrading from a discussion of the topic into one of those off-topic "I'm smart, you're dumb" exchanges that I try to avoid. So I'll call it quits, after I point out one more little thing:


Words, as is well known, are great foes of reality. - Conrad

Interesting you would pick that quote....

Peace, and feel free to take the last word.

TheRedneck


[edit on 8/13/2009 by TheRedneck]




posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 02:53 PM
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The book Miracles by C.S. Lewis approaches the subject in a very interesting way. I highly recommend it.

I don't necessarily agree with what he has to say, but he makes great points which made me think a lot about what I believed in.



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 03:49 PM
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Originally posted by Astyanax

Originally posted by Majestic23


Originally posted by Astyanax
I repeat: miracles represent the dreams and revenge-fantasies of very primitive, emotionally immature human beings. Of these, gods are born. Is the pertinence clear now, or do you require it spelled out further?


How is that the case?


The utility of a god to a human lies precisely in the god's putative ability to transcend the boundaries of space and time and to traduce the laws of physics. In other words, to perform miracles. Miracles are a god's raison d'être.
[edit on 13/8/09 by Astyanax]


I meant, why do they represent dreams and revenge fantasies?

Also I would argue the "utility" (even this turn of phrase indeicates a misrepresentation) of a God to a human is not but allowing existance and being wise and loving beyond human comprehension, I think most every religious person in the world would say the same.

You sound like you are describing a superhero.



posted on Aug, 13 2009 @ 07:10 PM
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reply to post by Toughiv
 


I saw a survivor of the holocaust on a program once telling about "her miracle", she had managed somehow to get a hold of a pair of wool long johns... she had them on under her dress. They were all lined up one morning and being searched. She said she knew if the found her in these underwear they would shoot her on the spot... according to her...she prayed for God to help her. She said when it came her turn to be searched they skipped right over her like she wasn't there. I see your point, why do such things happen...that is the million dollar question...but there were miracles happening during that tragic event...if that makes sense. I only wish that I had the answers!



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 04:59 AM
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reply to post by Greenize
 


"but there were miracles happening during that tragic event" - Your belief that these things were divine intervention astounds me.

When it comes to that woman being search, how you know the guards werent getting cold and wanted to hurry things along, so searched the majority not all, maybe they were tired, or maybe she acted in such a way that she didnt draw their attention.

i see the immediate response of "god done it" rather childish. Somethings are just chance. If i flip a coin and i rolls and then lands standing up, is that a miracle?! or just highly unlikely?

What determines the difference between a miracle and pot luck?



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 12:27 PM
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Originally posted by Toughiv
reply to post by Greenize
 


"but there were miracles happening during that tragic event" - Your belief that these things were divine intervention astounds me.

When it comes to that woman being search, how you know the guards werent getting cold and wanted to hurry things along, so searched the majority not all, maybe they were tired, or maybe she acted in such a way that she didnt draw their attention.

i see the immediate response of "god done it" rather childish. Somethings are just chance. If i flip a coin and i rolls and then lands standing up, is that a miracle?! or just highly unlikely?

What determines the difference between a miracle and pot luck?


Nothing is pot luck and everything happens for a reason. Miracles in the sense of the one mentioned are 'set up' as it were by the higher selfs (Christ consciousness) so that we can take a differant path, experience differant things, and continue living.

We live our lives over and over again for the purpose of experience and learning, each time things a slightly differant. There are many instances of such "deja-vu" style miracles where our higher consciousness guardian angel, or indeed god if you feel, save our lives at a flashpoint so that we may live, often against unsurmountable odds.

Iam sure the majority of us have been acutely aware, we are about to die. Funnily enough our "life flashes before our eyes" at this point. This is our higher self starting our lives over again, realising their mistake in playing the interactive life recording and rushing it by or fastforwarding it. There are many instances of these flashpoints where people escape death,or reality is reset. Be it a slow burner like the concentration camp example or a split second reality shift where a car avoids collision by miraculous means.

It is rather unfair for you to say that someone ascribing a miracle to god is childish when your argument is "random sequence of events done it".



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 06:57 PM
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I am seeing a pattern here which I would like to address. Since it is not only from one poster, I am addressing this to the entire thread.

It sounds to me like a lot of posters, specifically the skeptical ones, are defining a 'miracle' differently than the posters who believe in miracles. Perhaps a definition from those involved in this thread as to what exactly defines a miracle in their opinion would be appropriate?

In my view, a miracle is any happening or circumstance which is so highly unlikely as to be incapable of being ascribed to simple chance without stretching the bounds of reasonable thinking, and which has a lasting beneficial effect on someone who was anticipating a divine intervention in line with said event. In other words, flipping a coin 5 times and having it land on heads 3 of those, is probably not a miracle. Having it land on heads 5 times is a miracle, if that act produces a lasting needed result for someone who was expecting such a result due to divine intervention. Landing on heads 4 out of 5 times would be very borderline, and probably not a miracle.

Simple happenstance is a fact of life and can appear to be a 'miracle' at times. But a true miracle would be beneficial and not detrimental in any appreciable way. In other words, a miracle would have to be consistent. That big truck missing your car by mere inches when it appears it should have hit your car may indeed be a miracle, but if another semi takes you out a mile or two later and kills you, it probably was not.

It is not necessary, in my opinion, for a miracle to involve the sudden acute defiance of the laws of physics, although that would obviously qualify. It can be something that appears small, even so small as to be initially unnoticed, as long as it defies the laws of chance in an appreciable way and/or produces a lasting beneficial effect that was requested.

TheRedneck



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 07:11 PM
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reply to post by Toughiv
 


What I believe is not the issue there...my point was that SHE believed it! She called it a miracle. There is no need to resort to insults. As I said in the OP I do not want to start an argument...my beliefs are mine and yours are yours...feel free to go re-read it.


[edit on 14-8-2009 by Greenize]



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 09:55 PM
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reply to post by Greenize
 

I have to agree with the woman it was a miracle. I have to wonder why some people think a miracle has to be earth shattering. The smallest of things can be a miracle.

When you are in need and your needs are met that is a miracle. Even if its just a store clearance on something you need but couldn't afford at the regular price.

To some it might be considered a potluck miracle but I'll take all the miracles I can get. I'm not greedy I don't have to have the big ones to make me smile and say thank you Lord.



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 10:44 PM
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reply to post by napayshni57
 


You just reminded me of something that happened to me one time!!! Its been probably 15 years ago or more. I didn't know what I was going to fix for dinner...my children were little...I had no money. I thought well, I will check around the house for change and see what I can come up with. I ended up in the closet, where I spotted a purse hanging that I hadn't used in a couple of years. I decided to check it and see it there might be some loose change in it. I unzipped the pocket in the back of the purse and there folded up beautifully was a 20 a ten a five and a one. 36.00.... Back then that would buy a weeks worth of groceries! I have no idea where it came from! I had totally forgetten that!!!!



[edit on 14-8-2009 by Greenize]



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 11:34 PM
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reply to post by TheRedneck
 

Your definition of 'miracle':


In my view, a miracle is any happening or circumstance which is so highly unlikely as to be incapable of being ascribed to simple chance without stretching the bounds of reasonable thinking, and which has a lasting beneficial effect on someone who was anticipating a divine intervention in line with said event.

The real definition of 'miracle'

miracle noun an effect or extraordinary event in the physical world that surpasses all known human or natural powers and is ascribed to a supernatural cause.

Not even the 'Bible dictionary' entry at the bottom of the linked page supports your redefinition of the word.



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 11:54 PM
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Originally posted by Majestic23
I meant, why do [gods] represent dreams and revenge fantasies [as you said]?

That is their function, though I should have added 'desires' to the list. We construct gods for many reasons, but central to all of them is the ability to perform miracles, to wield or repeal the forces of nature in our favour.


I would argue the "utility" of a God to a human is not but allowing existance and being wise and loving beyond human comprehension, I think most every religious person in the world would say the same.

Yes, you are right. This is how gods must appear to those who believe in them.


You sound like you are describing a superhero.

Heroes - the word comes from the Greek - were in mythology the sons of gods. So yes, gods are superheroes.

No need to excoriate me for being present at the sacrament in a spirit of unbelief; I shall take my leave of you here. It is now clear from Greenize's posts that her intention for the thread was a discussion of 'personal miracles'. Perhaps the title could have been chosen more carefully - it sounds as if the OP really wants to discuss the character of miracles - miracles as defined in the usual way, not simply as 'good luck' or 'answered prayers'.



posted on Aug, 14 2009 @ 11:57 PM
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reply to post by Greenize
 


I don't think they're for us to perform. I'm not sure if the Hebrew reads as the translation sez.

The kjv is exactly the way YHVH intended for it to be, but He also gave blessings to those who dug for a deeper understanding. Which means He wants us to earn the understanding.

I just started studying Ancient Hebrew, and one of the things I recall was how Hebrew thinks differently about things. In Hebrew the past is ahead of you, because you lived it and you remember then you can see it, but your future is behind you because you cannot see it! [ the exact opposite of how we were taught to think ]

If you'll go to aent.org, you'll find the NT translated from Aramaic and I thought it was a great translation.

But all of these things are add-ons to the most important part of learning the scriptures and what was meant, is to find a teacher who truly knows and understands and teaches chapter by chapter and verse by verse. That's where the blessings of understanding come into play. When a teacher who knows and understands the scriptures and the meaning of certain phrases as well as knowing the Hebrew, and the Massorah. Your knowledge base keeps getting better and better and better.

This is one place where I can get a teaching and know it is the right one. You'll have to decide for yourself if it interests you or not.

biblestudysite.com...

Anyways, I haven't studied that part of scriptures about what Yeshua said about moving mountains to understand it in Aramaic or Hebrew, but I'll bet it will be a treat when I do.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 05:18 AM
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reply to post by toasted
 


'Yeshua' also said, quite explicitly, many other things.
To Peter when he started to sink after walking on water: "Why did you DOUBT?"
And of course, there is his retort when the apostles bemoaned their supposed inability to perform miracles like he did ("Oh, if only we could do that!" - I am paraphrasing here): "IF you could? You can do all the things I do, AND MORE." (Again, paraphrasing - but the exact quotes are easy enough to find.)

There is extensive literature (some online) for anyone who wants to compare the originals with the translations.
But in this particular case it doesn't really matter: what matters is that ALL the translations (I have seen and compared them in more than a dozen languages myself) - and such translations are, as a rule, made by teams of highly competent translators and philologists - give the same meaning to these particular quotes.

As I said in my original reply in this thread, in my personal opinion Christ's mission was precisely to remind men that we ARE - and should be - like him.
Performing "miracles" (in effect that means affecting the visible reality by means of our heart's creative power) is only a small and relatively trivial facet, of course - but it IS one.







[edit on 15-8-2009 by Vanitas]



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 01:51 PM
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Originally posted by Astyanax
That is their function, though I should have added 'desires' to the list. We construct gods for many reasons, but central to all of them is the ability to perform miracles, to wield or repeal the forces of nature in our favour.


I see. This is often the case in terms of organised religion, and also on a personal level. Unless of course godlike beings were indeed present on Earth at some time and had such powers.
What this idea takes no account of is the fact that people who could geniunley perform feat miracles have said over and over again, anyone can do this its all about belief and perspective.


Originally posted by Astyanax
Heroes - the word comes from the Greek - were in mythology the sons of gods. So yes, gods are superheroes.


Strange this architype is so prevalent through time. We find superhuman beings that could perform magic (inner alchemy and manipulation of reality) in conjunction with all the other subjects of hidden knowledge that span continents, races and cultures (flying craft, ancient tech, pyramids and knowledge of sacred mathematics, divination, shapeshifting beings, greys, knowledge of a life force energy).
So really we need to be looking at miracles as manipulation of energy. Thats all it comes down to. The only thing that stops us is the apparent restrictions physics puts on us. There is growing evidence to suggest that such rules are more illusions that anything else.


Originally posted by AstyanaxNo need to excoriate me for being present at the sacrament in a spirit of unbelief; I shall take my leave of you here.


Its an open forum, I did consider if it was out of order or not to wade in there if that makes a differance. I was though, genuinley looking to understand such a point of view as yours. I used to be of the same mind but too many strange things happen. Being a skeptic inhibits learning and the idea that man doesant need spiritual warmth even in such a warped form as organised religion for any other reason than a psychological comfort blanket it just plain incorrect. We are spiritual beings and are connected with the divine in innumerable ways.


Originally posted by AstyanaxIt is now clear from Greenize's posts that her intention for the thread was a discussion of 'personal miracles'. Perhaps the title could have been chosen more carefully - it sounds as if the OP really wants to discuss the character of miracles - miracles as defined in the usual way, not simply as 'good luck' or 'answered prayers'.


But the definition is irrelevant you see. The purpose of a figure such as Jesus performing miracles is to show people the true nature of things, that our waking reality is an illusion, there is no spoon so to speak.
Both 'insane odds" miracles and "feat miracles" stem from the same realisation and powers.

We often hear about Tibetan monks performing miraclous feats like running in excess of 60mph.
We hear of Saints levitating.
We hear of superhuman strength in people enduring stressful events.
We hear of million to one odds occouring through prayer.

Its all the same thing, manipulation of energy, humans have power beyond anything we have yet to realise and we are in effect gods.
Its just that we are separeted from the gnosis we need to attain such powers (for good reason most likely).

I mean, imagine you got the abilitiy to fly today.
Would you know anything more, would you feel more content?

No, because like all material things it is fleeting pleasure. Here one moment, gone the next. In the astral realms our thoughts can be manifested at will, it takes nothing but a thought for us to fly in these realms and everything is in our perspective miraculous. Yet this ability does not go anywhere into making a person enlightened.

Once one sees our true potential earthly matters become less and less significant to us. Something as miraculous as flying or pyrokenisis is nothing more than a parlour trick when we see past the viel of physical incarnation.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 01:51 PM
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DP


[edit on 15-8-2009 by Majestic23]



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 04:35 PM
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Originally posted by Majestic23
What this idea takes no account of is the fact that people who could geniunley perform feat miracles have said over and over again, anyone can do this its all about belief and perspective.

Nobody can, nor has ever been able to, perform miracles. Miracles are a self-serving figment of superstitious people's imaginations.


Strange this architype is so prevalent through time.

Not really. As Mr. Barnum said, there's one born every minute. If wishes were horses, etc...


So really we need to be looking at miracles as manipulation of energy. Thats all it comes down to. The only thing that stops us is the apparent restrictions physics puts on us. There is growing evidence to suggest that such rules are more illusions that anything else.

Not at all. Miracles are more than the 'manipulation of energy'. Miracles are traductions of the laws of physics.


Being a skeptic inhibits learning and the idea that man doesant need spiritual warmth even in such a warped form as organised religion for any other reason than a psychological comfort blanket it just plain incorrect. We are spiritual beings and are connected with the divine in innumerable ways.

And the evidential support for this wildly improbable opinion is...?


But the definition is irrelevant you see.

See my signature. Try to understand it, unlike that other fellow who mishandled the point so badly he ended up impaling himself on it.


We often hear about Tibetan monks performing miraclous feats like running in excess of 60mph.

You mean you actually believe stuff like this? I've been to plenty of Tibetan Buddhist monasteries. The thing that impressed me most was the wet snotty unison snorts in between the chanting. 'Dammang-saranang - snoorrrrrkle! - gatcchameee!. The sound of fifty Yellow Hat monks simultaneously inhaling the contents of their sinuses is one never to be forgotten (everyone has a runny nose in the Himalayas).


We hear of Saints levitating.

Yeah, there was one famous fourteenth century one and God held his robe closed for him so that people couldn't look up and see his private parts while he flew. St. Bernard of some place or the other. Italy, 14th century. Look it up. You don't actually believe this kind of fairytale, do you?


We hear of superhuman strength in people enduring stressful events.

That's not a miracle.


We hear of million to one odds occouring through prayer.

Yes, but it never actually happens, does it? It's all just bluff and blague. Prayers are never answered except by coincidence. Amputees never re-grow their limbs. Auntie Myrtle gets healed by the tentshow pastor and walks, next morning she's back in the wheelchair again.


Its all the same thing, manipulation of energy, humans have power beyond anything we have yet to realise and we are in effect gods.

Yeh yeh yeh. That's why we're turning wine into water all the time. Oops, sorry, that's not a miracle. Water into wine's a miracle, but nobody can do that. Guess why.

Again I ask - do you, presumably an adult with some powers of intellect and discrimination, actually believe this stuff? Seriously?


Its just that we are separeted from the gnosis we need to attain such powers (for good reason most likely).

I blow my gnosis and all kinds of whatziz come out. But I wash it all away with Sophia and water. It makes a nice bubbly Sephiroth.


I mean, imagine you got the abilitiy to fly today.

Business for me always. First class if somebody else is paying.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 07:58 PM
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Originally posted by Astyanax
Nobody can, nor has ever been able to, perform miracles. Miracles are a self-serving figment of superstitious people's imaginations.


You sound so sure.

If I say I am a wise man, it surely means I do not know.

There is absolutely nothing you can say to even substantiate that idea. There is no science that does not allow for miracles to happen. Or am I missing one?


Originally posted by Astyanax Not really. As Mr. Barnum said, there's one born every minute. If wishes were horses, etc...


The only real way for a sucker to be born every minute is if there was some entity pulling the wool over our eyes from birth to death. Oh yeah, thats the case right now isnt it!


Originally posted by Astyanax Not at all. Miracles are more than the 'manipulation of energy'. Miracles are traductions of the laws of physics.


Modern day quantum physicists generally agree "everything is energy" of differing density. This concept is key for any sort of reality manipulation from Hermes to modern day crystal healers. It is no coincidence that they are only just catching up to what the mystics have been saying (and the religions you seem to hold in such low regard) have been saying for over two thousand years.


Originally posted by AstyanaxAnd the evidential support for this wildly improbable opinion is...?


There is no evidence. Energy is like water, you can put it in a bottle and it will hold its shape but take away the intent keeping it together and it is formless again and dissapates. This is the most natural thing in the world for us to know but we have been taught it is wrong and "improbable". Skepticism always says improbable, impossible, you think your friend PT Barnum ever said, "thats an impossible scheme"?

Skepticism hasnt taught us sh*t, it pretends to defend people when all it does is massage egos. Skepticism is like self pleasure for your ego.

Tell me why when I was a young kid I thought I understood the world I stopped learning. I thought my point of view was generally based on sound logic, and guess what you think happens to that logic when you see something that just doesant make sense, when the odds are slim to none but you make it anyway, when you see a ufo split the sky right before your eyes or see one of your friends spontanously levitate a cigarette, when you realise a grand age old conspiracy keeps us from knowledge?

If I was still as skeptical and such a know it all now then I would not understand a single thing, I would be one of the sheeple albiet abit smarter than the rest and a know all overconfident douche. And I would be a lesser person for it. Put it this way, now I am not a skeptic I learn and not just think but comprehend and truly understand a little bit more of the universe every so often and its like light breaking through the clouds.

You ever have moments like that skeptic? They call it an ephifany... I think.


Originally posted by AstyanaxSee my signature. Try to understand it, unlike that other fellow who mishandled the point so badly he ended up impaling himself on it.


I dont understand it, its like either I am not intelligent enough or my soul is telling me there is no great value in trying to comprehend it. In fact, its annoying me just looking at it. You want one that flows real nice like mine. What do you thing my signature means?


Originally posted by AstyanaxYou mean you actually believe stuff like this? I've been to plenty of Tibetan Buddhist monasteries. The thing that impressed me most was the wet snotty unison snorts in between the chanting. 'Dammang-saranang - snoorrrrrkle! - gatcchameee!. The sound of fifty Yellow Hat monks simultaneously inhaling the contents of their sinuses is one never to be forgotten (everyone has a runny nose in the Himalayas).


Hey, I was eating a wicked bad club sandwhich and you ruined it.
Plus I get most of my knowledge on monks from old kung fu films and assumed they spent more time getting kicked in the face by Jet Li than in meditation.


Originally posted by AstyanaxYeah, there was one famous fourteenth century one and God held his robe closed for him so that people couldn't look up and see his private parts while he flew. St. Bernard of some place or the other. Italy, 14th century. Look it up. You don't actually believe this kind of fairytale, do you?.


The snot thing was bad enough do you really need to go into the length god goes to in order to stop and old mans junk from being seen?


Originally posted by AstyanaxThat's not a miracle.


Dont go for the easy route Astya. You know I wasnt reffering to the well known phenomena of voluntary nerve failure in order to push muscles beyond normal strain.


Originally posted by AstyanaxYes, but it never actually happens, does it? It's all just bluff and blague. Prayers are never answered except by coincidence. Amputees never re-grow their limbs. Auntie Myrtle gets healed by the tentshow pastor and walks, next morning she's back in the wheelchair again.


Have you ever tried it?


Originally posted by AstyanaxYeh yeh yeh. That's why we're turning wine into water all the time. Oops, sorry, that's not a miracle. Water into wine's a miracle, but nobody can do that. Guess why.


Parlour tricks, it it not more impressive that you subconscious mind has the ability to co-ordinate 100 trillion cells in the human body?
Again its all energy, change the structure of the molecules and it will change the energy pattern and all attributed characteristics. Alchemists could do this, most esoterics could do this, maybe someone now can do it, maybe in the future we all can do it.

Do you think someone who had that power would be interested in using it?



[edit on 15-8-2009 by Majestic23]

[edit on 15-8-2009 by Majestic23]



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 08:23 PM
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Originally posted by Astyanax
Again I ask - do you, presumably an adult with some powers of intellect and discrimination, actually believe this stuff? Seriously?


Its almost as though you, presumably a young adult who think they know a lot and have generally a very logical stance on things cant quite believe that a person who for all you know might just be perfectly sane can actually believe this stuff.

Heres a fun list of other things I believe in.

Elfs/gnomes.
Thousands of alien species.
Base on Moon.
Unicorns.
Base on Mars.
Vampires.
Ghosts (of all kinds).
Demons.
Demigods.
TV is literally the Devil.
Qi/orgone/prana etc...
Pyramids were meditation chambers.
Chakras exist and anchor our souls to this reality.
The Earth is living and also has a chakra system and has meridians.
Humans are a genetically maniulated species.
Thanks for reading this far are you enjoying this post or is it lame.
Shapeshifting is possible and has been done in the real world before.
DNA is the literal key to the nature of our reality.
Existance is essentially a mechanical/organic/etheric structure.
Past present and future all exist at once and time in not linear.
I could go on.


Originally posted by Astyanax I blow my gnosis and all kinds of whatziz come out. But I wash it all away with Sophia and water. It makes a nice bubbly Sephiroth.


What you got a thing for snot or what? Now whos full of jibber jabber?


Originally posted by AstyanaxBusiness for me always. First class if somebody else is paying.


I wouldant hold out for that first class ticket though. Iam not sure I would even want to be on the same plane as you never mind buy you a ticket, with your nasal problems and all.

Nah Iam just being silly now. Seriously though, come over to the dark side for a bit. Its so liberating you know, life has more meaning when you see the spiritual skies, its like life in HD.



posted on Aug, 15 2009 @ 08:37 PM
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Something else I fail to understand is why some people want to argue and argue against something they supposedly have no belief in....



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