We are voting about whether it is OK to smack your kids

What was so tyrannical about your mother's rule that you had to challenge her; if you don't mind us trying to get some clarification on your justification?

reply to post by spellbound


Attacking you? Nothing of the sort. If you've come to that conclusion I most assuredly apologize.

I'm just suggesting to you, that there are two sides to every story...and maybe, just maybe, you might attempt to discover the other side?

Again, my apologise if I've offended. That was most certainly not my intent.

Most people over here think it's ok, to be honest I got no problem with it, being the older of 2 siblings I got the smacks and my younger sister got the telling off and she's the one that still mouths back even at nearly 19.

I've never even sworn at my parents whereas my sister has raised her hand in retaliation. We have been raised identically except for I'm the one that had the smack for misbehaving and I don't feel abused or mistreated, I've got tons more respect for people than my sister who was never once properly disciplined.

Hell I think I can ever a soap bar touchin my lips once or twice for bad language, it's amazin how quick you'll shut up if you smell soap comin!

reply to post by ldyserenity


Hot pepper sauce in the mouth is considered child abuse.

Originally posted by eNumbra

Originally posted by spellbound
reply to post by heyo

 

No, they are only words.

I will never forget that soap thing.

It was intrusive and abusive.

You didn't learn the lesson then. I got soap in the mouth once, liquid and had to swish it around like it was mouthwash for 30 seconds.

I didn't use those words around my parents ever again.

HA! Exactly.
But that is the difference in people. Spell still looks back on that in a negative manner.
I look back on the one time I got soap in the mouth (only took one time, LOL) and I smile. Why do I smile, because I know I did something wrong as a kid and I got punished for it. For me, it is kind of like a scar on the body when showing a friend, "check out his scar, cool!".

reply to post by spellbound


I do spank my young children. Ages 2 and 3.
At these ages it is hard to give time outs in a way that they understand they are being punished. If I could figure out a better and more effective way to define punishment I would.

I look at all the kids today. Mouth, violent, rude, inappropriate. My father gave spankings and not one of his 5 children ever even now in adulthood act out the way our youths do today.

I am not a religious person but I do believe in respect, i believe it is earned and should be thought to all. If we are not teaching our children right and wrong behaviors, I've afriad of what our future generations may act like.

Originally posted by Jessicaviv
reply to post by spellbound

 

I do spank my young children. Ages 2 and 3.
At these ages it is hard to give time outs in a way that they understand they are being punished. If I could figure out a better and more effective way to define punishment I would.

I look at all the kids today. Mouth, violent, rude, inappropriate. My father gave spankings and not one of his 5 children ever even now in adulthood act out the way our youths do today.

I am not a religious person but I do believe in respect, i believe it is earned and should be thought to all. If we are not teaching our children right and wrong behaviors, I've afriad of what our future generations may act like.

I am with Jess. I see a big difference in kids today compared to yesterday. but listen, my way of raising a kid is no better than Spell's way of raising a kid. The important thing is how the child turns out, how your relationship with that child is when it is their time to be adults. If spanking worked, great. If timeout worked, great. Like I said in another post, it all depends on the parent and child.

reply to post by lardo5150


lardo makes a great point. Kids are all different and will act different to all types of stimuli. Even at these young ages they have personality's all there own. If talking softly and giving time outs worked like it does for my aunt, the i'd do it.

In my house there is just no other way. For me to ignore bad behavior and being disrespected becuase a simple time out would not work, would only make the respect issue worse. It would also cause her to develop ( my daughter) a rude and disrespectful nature to others. I can't let this happen.

[edit on 5-8-2009 by Jessicaviv]

reply to post by antar

True, but these laws are not made for the conscious parent, they are being made as a blanket for the abusers. But I think you know that already.

WRONG!!! I know of a father who was accused of child abuse because his kids were TOO WELL BEHAVED! He was at a hospital and the nurses turned him in. Social services tried to take his ill (high fever) child. He refused to leave the child's side and therefore did not lose the child. He was able to hussle his kid out of the state and did not show for the court hearing. This was a case of absolutely nothing except the words of a couple of nurses. He is only one of many such cases I know of. In most the child was taken without any evidence.

Some how the idea that the Universe is a nice safe place and you do not have to pay for your mistakes has gotten lodged into first world brains. As far as I am concerned NOT applying the palm of the hand to the rear is abusive.

I have grabbed a7 yr old child just as he went airborne over a 1000 ft cliff because he would not mind his Mama. I have dragged a four old out from where he was sitting under the belly of a carriage horse.

Worse I have FIRED several young people for passive aggressive behavior (breaking company equipment) because they didn't like being told what to do without lots of pandering to their egos. I have FIRED young people because they could not get to work on time, took hour breaks and left early. I have FIRED young people because they sassed me back when I asked them to put down the magazine and get to work. I have FIRED young people for lying on company critical paperwork. I will no longer hire people under the age of 35 because of their rotten work ethic. I am not alone in my contempt of touchy feelly raised kids.

... Surveys of corporations consistently find that businesses are focused outside • the U.S. to recruit necessary talent. In a 2002 survey, 16 global corporations complained that American schools did not produce students with global skills. United States companies agreed. The survey found that 30 percent of large U.S. companies “believed they had failed to exploit fully their international business opportunities due to insufficient personnel with international skills.” One respondent to the survey even noted, “If I wanted to recruit people who are both technically skilled and culturally aware, I wouldn’t even waste time looking for them on U.S. college campuses.” Source

The interference by the government in child rearing has drastically reduced the level of education. From the same source " In 2000, 28 percent of all freshmen entering a degree-granting institution required remedial coursework"

Another study shows

"For 10 years, William Schmidt, a statistics professor at Michigan State University, has looked at how U.S. students stack up against students in other countries in math and science. "In fourth-grade, we start out pretty well, near the top of the distribution among countries; by eighth-grade, we're around average, and by 12th-grade, we're at the bottom of the heap, outperforming only two countries, Cyprus and South Africa." :Source

Is it any wonder Corporations now import workers or just export the entire business to another country? Our country is trillions in debt our manufacturing base has been exported and our youth, who have been lead to believe they are the best educated in the world, have to clean up the mess without a good education or a decent work ethic.

Instilling a work ethic, honesty and good study skills is a heck of a lot more important than whether a kid gets his butt smacked. Do not let this nit picking divert your attention away from what is REALLY IMPORTANT, preparing our youth for the very hostile environment we are heading for soon.

I believe its ok to "pow pow" your kids if the situation warrants it. I'm not saying beat your kids or abuse them or break their little spirits. But different things call for different punishments . When my son was two he went through this biting phase for a week , after 3 or 4 bites throughout the week and after I explained to him that it isn't ok and why , I bit his little arm back. (fairly light pressure) he never bit again. At two years old he couldn't understand that the biting was causing pain , and he thought it was a game. (you can't reason with a two year old , they're like little ID's Running around) It wasn't until I observed him at his daycare that I saw where he learned this behavior from. Some other kid who's parents probably don't discipline him or think that it's cute. You raise your kid your way , I'll raise my kid my way. Let your kid be a little ill behaved biting beast , It just reflects on how you raise him. If you don't love your kid enough to discipline him and teach him right from wrong , shame on you. These are probably the same people that let the Television raise their kids.

The 'Anti Smacking Law" missed the whole point of why there is child abuse. The law has already been put on the books. The Vote this month is a referendum. Problem is its non binding.

UNICEF report... as to why child abuse exists...

* drug or alcohol abuse
* single-parenthood / weak family ties
* poverty / poor housing
* low maternal education
* low maternal age at birth

Interestingly, in the UNICEF report, of the 10 top countries that were deemed safest and promoted the highest level of well-being for children, six hadn’t banned smacking. The safest country in the report hadn’t banned smacking. In other words, to try and suggest that a smack on the bum is child abuse is simply not true, and is an insult to good parents.

LINK - voteno.org.nz

I often hear people quoting Sweden who banned smacking in 1979. Hasn’t that been a success story?

Research has shown that the Swedish smacking ban has done more harm than good. Following the banning of smacking in Sweden, child abuse increased 489% in 13 years following the ban, and assaults by children against other children increased 672%. Sweden’s foster care rate is double N.Z.’s rate – twice as many kids are being removed from their families.

You know they ask you here in the US, on my sons 18month check up did I yell or spank my child. I put down yes, the Dr. never asked me about it. So I mentioned it to her, she said my son is fine and whatever disciplining I was doing was ok, because he wasnt shy, inverted, you can tell I dont beat my son, but anyone with kids, toddlers know you cant just give him a toy to keep them away from what they really want, the fan, tv, remote, climbing, it doesnt always work. There is a line you dont pass when spanking your kid, but also lets look at our kids today, with no discipling from their parents, rude, disprespectful, talk back, hit their parents. I will discipline my kid as seems fit.

I think if people were mature when they had kids, spanking your kids wouldn't be an issue. And parents need to realize you arent your kids friend, your his/her parent, they actually want direction.

Originally posted by ladyinwaiting
reply to post by ldyserenity

 

Hot pepper sauce in the mouth is considered child abuse.

That depends on how much, A drop is not child abuse I can assure you. I know I have done it in front of social workers. So, yeah, if you pour half the bottle in thier mouth, maybe, but no it's not considered abuse at all to put a drop on your finger and put it on their tongue with your finger.

[edit on 5-8-2009 by ldyserenity]

reply to post by ldyserenity


Just out of curiosity, what was the occasion that prompted you to put hot sauce in the mouth of children in front of social workers?

I can only say that as a child I was never hit. I obeyed. I had great parents who were fair minded and did not believe in corporal punishment.

I was punished in other ways and had complete respect for my parents. I remember seeing how other kids were beat by their parents and those were the kids who did the worst things. They feared their own parents.

I raised my daughter the same. No issues and she is now in an Ivy League School on full scholarship.

I think those who believe it is necessary to hit children are mimicking their parents and don't know any better. They had no role model to teach them how to parent without corporal punishment and don't understand that a child who obeys out of respect, rather than fear should be their goal.

reply to post by ladyinwaiting



The kid cursed; the lady looked at me like "what are you going to do about this" Look on her face, so I took out the louisiana hot sauce and put it on my finger, one drop and put it in his mouth, it was the school social worker come to my house cause my son needed speech therapy at school. He could talk but some words weren't clear and yet his cursing always was clear as a bell!!!

reply to post by Blaine91555

I can only say that as a child I was never hit. I obeyed. I had great parents who were fair minded and did not believe in corporal punishment.

You were lucky. Some children are just plain very strong willed from the get go while others want to please.

I train horses, most I buy as babies or raise myself. Some will cringe if I speak in an abrupt voice, others will walk all over me if I do not push back. The correct method for kids or animals, is to use the minimum amount of force needed to get the point across and lots of praise for good behavior. Sometimes a smack is the only answer but usually it is only needed a couple of times to convince them that you really are top dog. The issue of who is in charge has to be settled before anything else can be accomplished. In a lot of families the kids are in charge. And that is abuse to my mind because they are not prepared for the real world where they are usually NOT in charge.

I am using horses because I have a large sample of individuals to base my observations on, 20 at present. I also have a lot of different kids riding those horses every week.

www.continuum-concept.org...

It took some time before the significance of what I was looking at sank into my "civilized" mind. I had spent more than two years living in the jungles of South America with Stone Age Indians. Little boys traveled with us when we enlisted their fathers as guides and crew, and we often stayed for days or weeks in the villages of the Yequana Indians where the children played all day unsupervised by adults or adolescents. It only struck me after the fourth of my five expeditions that I had never seen a conflict either between two children or between a child and an adult. Not only did the children not hit one another, they did not even argue. They obeyed their elders instantly and cheerfully, and often carried babies around with them while playing or helping with the work.

Where were the "terrible twos"? Where were the tantrums, the struggle to "get their own way," the selfishness, the destructiveness and carelessness of their own safety that we call normal? Where was the nagging, the discipline, the "boundaries" needed to curb their contrariness? Where, indeed, was the adversarial relationship we take for granted between parent and child? Where was the blaming, the punishing, or for that matter, where was any sign of permissiveness?


The Yequana Way

There is a Yequana expression equivalent to "Boys will be boys"; it has a positive connotation, however, and refers to the boys' high spirits as they run about and whoop and swim in the river or play Yequana badminton (a noncompetitive game in which all players keep the cornhusk shuttlecock in the air as long as possible by batting it with open hands). I heard many shouts and much laughter when the boys played outdoors, yet the moment they were inside the huts, they lowered their voices to maintain the reigning quiet. They never interrupted an adult conversation. In fact, they rarely spoke at all in the company of adults, confining themselves to listening and performing little services such as passing around food or drink.

Far from being disciplined or suppressed into compliant behavior, these little angels are relaxed and cheerful. And they grow up to be happy, confident, cooperative adults!

How do they do it? What do the Yequana know about human nature that we do not? What can we do to attain non-adversarial relationships with our children in toddlerhood, or later if they have got off to a bad start?


The "Civilized" Experience

In my private practice, people consult me to overcome the deleterious effects of beliefs about themselves formed in childhood.1 Many of these people are parents keen not to subject their offspring to the kind of alienation they suffered at the hands of their own usually well-meaning parents. They would like to know how they can rear their children happily and painlessly.

Most of these parents have taken my advice and, following the Yequana example, kept their babies in physical contact all day and night until they began to crawl.2 Some, however, are surprised and dismayed to find their tots becoming "demanding" or angry — often toward their most caretaking parent. No amount of dedication or self-sacrifice improves the babies' disposition. Increased efforts to placate them do nothing but augment frustration in both parent and child. Why, then, do the Yequana not have the same experience?

The crucial difference is that the Yequana are not child-centered. They may occasionally nuzzle their babies affectionately, play peek-a-boo, or sing to them, yet the great majority of the caretaker's time is spent paying attention to something else...not the baby! Children taking care of babies also regard baby care as a non-activity and, although they carry them everywhere, rarely give them direct attention. Thus, Yequana babies find themselves in the midst of activities they will later join as they proceed through the stages of creeping, crawling, walking, and talking. The panoramic view of their future life's experiences, behavior, pace, and language provides a rich basis for their developing participation.

Jean Liedloff, an American writer, spent two and a half years deep in the South American jungle with Stone Age Indians. The experience demolished her Western preconceptions of how we should live and led her to a radically different view of what human nature really is. She offers a new understanding of how we have lost much of our natural well-being and shows us practical ways to regain it for our children and for ourselves.

These "stone age" people never beat their children. Yes in our slave society beatings are necessary:

www.primitivism.com...

The helplessness of childhood makes the threat of bodily harm or loss of love, which is used by the parents and others to enforce civilized morality and civilized education, a traumatic experience. The developing little person becomes afraid to express its own tribal nature. There is much fear that lies at the bottom of becoming a civilized adult.

The master's law must be enforced. Slaves enforce it on other slaves. The masters at the very top function as a "tribe" somehow , they don't fight each other, don't use the formal laws that are not meant for them, and use a gift economy of "I help you ,you help me".

They keep us separated and fighting for the right to serve. Trough formal education. That is the beginning. 8 years wasted in some room. What can you learn about life in a room ?

Search for John Taylor Gatto.



[edit on 5-8-2009 by pai mei]

I've always been of the mind that hitting/smacking, whatever, someone ANYONE in the face is never okay (well, obviously unless it's in self defense). I can't quite explain it but it's just seems wrong. Too...personal, you know?

A few smacks (even hard ones) on the butt is fine. Obviously not to the point of causing lasting physical injury.

My sis and I used to fight constantly when we were kids. We were too close in age so it was bound to happen. But we never hit each other in the face. We just knew it was wrong somehow.

Weird thing is, my sister developed a need to hit people in the face. Usually guys for some reason. For "fun" (warped, I know). She's 27 years old and will just wap a guy across the cheek for no reason. I've told her that's not cool at all but that only makes her do it again.

She's started smacking my neice in the face. Oddly enough, she usually does it if my niece has hit someone. So she hits her to show her that hitting is wrong??? I don't get it. But now I worry because my sis said she lost her cool with my niece once and full on whacked her across the head so hard her ring left a mark. I wanted to scream at my sis but I was flabbergasted.

Anyway, smacking just isn't cool. It's too personal. I remember my dad lost it on my once when I was like 9 or something. I can't even remember what it was for, but I remember I was smarting off to him. And for the first time ever he gave me a really good whack across my face that left a red mark for two days. It was so much different than if he had spanked me. It really hurt me emotionally. A spanking never did. He never did it again though. I'm sure he realized what he had done.

[edit on 5-8-2009 by nunya13]

I have no problem with it. Honestly I think I would have turned out awful if my parents hadn't spanked me. I was very much the troublemaking child and I thank them for those open-handed whacks on the tush to keep me in line. I even got popped on the bare butt with a fly swatter for splashing water and bubbles all over the bathroom at bath time. Never did that again.

It always scared me more than it hurt. Not like "i fear my parents are going to kill me" scared, but more startling. I usually didn't know it was coming, Words didn't always work with me (had some slight hearing problems as a child) so I didn't have time to gear up for it. Got a stern look, then if I kept going I got picked out of no where up and slapped on the tush. I can tell you I think that startling aspect kept me from repeating 90% of the things I was reprimanded for.

And I love them for that. I'll raise my kids the same way if necessary. I've got no problem saying that.