How did we ever get to the point that employers were expected to pay for your health insurance?, page 2

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reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:28 PM by ldyserenity

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
reply to post by grapesofraft

Well, as an employer who has ALWAYS provided full healthcare benefits to their employees, I beg to differ.

Companies should be the ones providing health care or providing it at reduced rates. My company does well, pretty darn well actually, and I have never had a problem providing these things, even when I was just starting out.

The problem with self reliance is that companies would rather deal with a company when it's insuring people, than the actual individual. It reduces paper costs and headaches when it comes to filing for benefits and coverage.

And nationalized health care is not bad. It's just a matter of how you set it up. Sure there are some horror stories, but nothing's perfect. I live in Canada and have NEVER had a problem with the healthcare system, if I did, I can ALWAYS pay for better service through other means.

And I have a child whose medical bills would total over 50K a year without my government healthcare program.

~Keeper

Wow it's nice to finally meet an enlightened company owner... My faith in humanity has been restored.

I don't agree with the OP on this one, companies, especially large ones absolutely should supply some form of healthcare, and they do get a very large reduction for the rates by enrolling large groups of people. I worked for prudential medical claims.Something the general public doesn't get. After all they already pay next to nothing to their employees in most cases. We working class people are the ones doing the sweat jobs and making them wealthier, so at the very least, they should pay for those benefits!

Oh And BTW when I graduated High School it was still where you were able to get management positions when you started out a HS degree and worked at the bottom post job you could still work your way up. Somewhere these corporate jerks found yet another way for the haves to be the only one to move up when they started asking for college degrees for management of retail, which screwed me. Even if you had years of experience, you could no longer move up in the corporation, unless you went to college. That I think happened in 96 maybe 97.

[edit on 31-7-2009 by ldyserenity]

[edit on 31-7-2009 by ldyserenity]

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:28 PM by Lichter daraus

reply to post by ~Lucidity

Well I really dont have a choice ill take any job right now. I have no money...

PEACE!!!

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:28 PM by tothetenthpower

reply to post by grapesofraft

Yes, Wal Mart are criminals, if you'd like examples, it takes only a google search to see the effects of Wal Mart when it lands in a community.

First I'd start with the movie " Wal-Mart, The High Cost Of A Low price", that should give you some perspective.

It's not about business models or how they operate in the States or Canada, you really need to see just HOW Wal-Mart is able to offer such a low price.

Any company that takes advantage of the situation of others to get their means is scum. Capitalism left unchecked is a monster.

~Keeper

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:30 PM by ldyserenity

Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by Lichter daraus

You are correct they dont have to, but many companies are expected to or are looked down upon if they dont and I wonder why that is or how it came about? A good example is how everyone used to complain about Wal-Mart not providing health insurance for most of its employees.

[edit on 7/31/2009 by grapesofraft]

OMFG if you had to work at a wal-mart as a cashier on anywhere on the floor you would understand. Dealing with the tirds who shop there, well it's the least they can do!!!!! I left the job even the benefits weren't worth dealing with those low life customers!

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:35 PM by grapesofraft

reply to post by tothetenthpower

First I'd start with the movie " Wal-Mart, The High Cost Of A Low price", that should give you some perspective.

That is just more Liberal, I would rather be a communist, propaganda. Half of the problems in this country are caused by all the whining Liberals who think the world should hand everything that everyone wants to them. Whatever happened to personal responsibility?

If you dont like Wal-Mart dont shop there and encourage everyone you meet to do the same thing. They arent evil they are just filling a niche very succesfully.

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:38 PM by WhatTheory

Look, no company or individual should be FORCED by government or unions to provide any type of service like healthcare. If the company chooses to offer a service then fine, that is their right if they want to use it as incentive to hire the best people. But they should not be forced.

Once you allow and believe it's ok for government involvement in the affairs of private businesses and individuals, you are going down the road to slow incrementalism which leads to today where the government is set to take over everything from the auto industry, banks, insurance companies and soon to be healthcare. Once this is done, they will be coming after you to control every aspect of your personal life.

As for Walmart, well they should be able to offer whatever benefits they see fit without government interference or being pressured by unions. If you don't like their benefits then get a job somewhere else.

Besides, when did working at Walmart or Burger King become a career? When I was young these type of jobs were only temporary. They were summer jobs or jobs to make a few extra bucks while going to school.

[edit on 7/31/2009 by WhatTheory]

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:39 PM by tothetenthpower

reply to post by grapesofraft

Look dude, I apologize, but if you aren't going to inform yourself before you make a decision about something, then your always going to be wrong.

I don't shop at Wal Mart actually, mostly because their products are sub standard and I can find better prices online. More than that I would rather pay a higher price and support an established local business.

What's next, you going to say that Enron wasn't to blame for their actions?

And you're point about personnal responsibility, does that not extend to those who personally own large corporations who make alot of money? How about THEIR responsiblity?

~Keeper

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:41 PM by grapesofraft

reply to post by tothetenthpower

What's next, you going to say that Enron wasn't to blame for their actions?

And you're point about personnal responsibility, does that not extend to those who personally own large corporations who make alot of money? How about THEIR responsiblity?

Enron was responsible for what they did. That actually was criminal.

I am pretty sure that those who own their own large corporations take care of their personal responsiblities. They provide for the needs of their families quite well. That is where personal responsibility ends.

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:43 PM by tothetenthpower

reply to post by WhatTheory

I agree, I think the government should stay the hell out of everybody's business. I don't think they have the right to tell me what to do one bit.

It's still criminal however to not treat your employees better as your business grows. The greed of humanity is stunning.

~Keeper

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:45 PM by tothetenthpower

reply to post by grapesofraft

Not true.

Not when YOUR decisions effect the lives of thousands of people. People who DEPEND on you, for whatever reason, to provide them with the substance they need in order to survive.

I understand where your coming from, there is a MAJOR lack of responsibility among all people, rich and poor. But blaming the people isn't going to make it better.

We have to start with the established institutions.

~Keeper

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:49 PM by rizla

Have a NHS system just like in they do in every developed nation except for the USA. All the horror stories about Socialist medicine are propaganda put around by the Insurers who are making a Bundle.

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:51 PM by WhatTheory

Originally posted by rizla
Have a NHS system just like in they do in every developed nation except for the USA. All the horror stories about Socialist medicine are propaganda put around by the Insurers who are making a Bundle.

No thanks, I would rather have the best health care system and not have to wait 6 months for heart surgery.

Take your propaganda elsewhere. Why do you think your 'leaders' come to America when the surgery is really important.

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:54 PM by tothetenthpower

reply to post by WhatTheory

I had a triple bypass three days after I was told I needed one.

And that was in New Brunswick. Which is the poorest province in Canada really.

Sorry, but your argument is false. Horror stories exist in every system, nothing is perfect. But i'd rather pay nothing for my broken arm, then the 5K it cost me when I had to have it done in the States.

~Keeper

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 08:56 PM by charlie0

If I am not mistaken it has something to do with IRS rules. If a Corporation has to provide some benefits to its officers they must provide similar benefit to exempt and non exempt employees too to be eligible for tax write off. President Reagan created loop holes in these rules too. Right after that large Corporation could manage their own Insurance instead of paying for individual coverage. They would contract it out say Blue X blue shield to manage it for them. And I know this for fact that within groups there used to be differences. For example at one time I had HAP coverage and a senior employee in my group also had HAP similar circumstance but his out of pocket costs were lower than mine and better coverage. Corporations always tried to keep things of that nature very quiet. The only way you can find out if you talk to people and check things out. I mean to verify it.

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 09:00 PM by WhatTheory

Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Sorry, but your argument is false.

No, it's not. There are a billion stories like what I suggested. Just because you had a good experience does not mean everyone does. God forbid if you were in your 60's or older because they might deny you the right to have the surgery to begin with. People from canada come to the U.S. all the time for treatment and surgery because of the long wait times in Canada.

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 09:00 PM by Bldrvgr

The question more or less is. How did Employment in the U.S go down the gutter?

Obviously when clintons got thier hands on the biggest retailer chain "libmart" err walmart they hop'd on over to china and started talking cheap labor.. Makes me understand more why billy sold us out his last year in office.

Libmart able to bring in cheap products at cheaper rates and with them screwing with employee pay on U.S side (Compiled on to endless amount of court cases against them on tax evasion, and purposefully getting funding via townships) this provided a steep competitive damper on other retailers here, which had no choice but to re organize and bring in more foriegn goods to cut down costs on product end. Meanwhile start cutting the labor sector. Hell why do you think business's like best buy decided to trash Commission areas, along with numerous competitive benefits to hire the better educated market of people for minimum wage / high turnover rate ? Purely do to they had no choice and crunching profits was required to keep up.

Libmart was allowed to create this huge gash in our society and the killer is. There's people that will defend the company even though the amount of lost court cases alone dictates the company should be been dismantled with the board being arrested. This will never happen .. Clintons will never get charged fully and people are to dumb to research this. so as long as its not in the media "Everyone is happy" and we need higher minimum wage requirements and all wonder exactly why?

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 09:12 PM by tothetenthpower

reply to post by WhatTheory

Id; love to see documentation for that one.

And it's not just one experience, allow me to explain how good Canadian Health Care is my friend.

My son, has a Auto Immune Disease which causes his body to literally attack itself whenever he gets infected or gets a virus. Now he requires constant medical attention and equipment in order for him to have a normal life.

I tried once getting him treated in the States since we have a business there, and I followed your mentality. Well it would have cost me about 50K a year just for treatment, that's not medications or equipment.

Now in Canada, it didn't cost me a red cent. NO BILLS. Not for medical supplies or equipment not for anything. It was completely covered.

Your views are from the propaganda that the media spews about nationalized health care, there is good to it. Obviously there are bad things, but that's every system as I have continually said.

Bottom line is, i'd rather pay a little more in taxes and get the care I have, then have your system and need to take out a second mortgage to pay my medical bills.

Show me a study that states that Canadian Health Care is worse than the states, please.

~Keeper

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 09:25 PM by Titen-Sxull

reply to post by grapesofraft

Yes let's steal more wages from the individual rather than the business they are employed with (typically made up of hundreds of individuals or even more). Bad enough the IRS gets to come in and steal the hard earned money of the American people...

Tell you what they, if they repeal the taxes on an individuals wages then it would be fair for that person to pay for 100% of their own care, but so long as the government keeps stealing from us I don't think we should allow the corporations to get in on it too...

Our freedoms shrink, our money disappears, and the chains of debt are slapped tight on our wrists as early as they can get us. Its a fine line between freedom and slavery, and while we may still be leaning toward the freedom side in this country I don't think it would take much to tip us over the edge.

"it is just an expense" - no it is not it is the well being of the worker, and it is in the best interest of the business to keep workers healthy is it not?

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 09:31 PM by ldyserenity

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by grapesofraft

Yes let's steal more wages from the individual rather than the business they are employed with (typically made up of hundreds of individuals or even more). Bad enough the IRS gets to come in and steal the hard earned money of the American people...

Tell you what they, if they repeal the taxes on an individuals wages then it would be fair for that person to pay for 100% of their own care, but so long as the government keeps stealing from us I don't think we should allow the corporations to get in on it too...

Our freedoms shrink, our money disappears, and the chains of debt are slapped tight on our wrists as early as they can get us. Its a fine line between freedom and slavery, and while we may still be leaning toward the freedom side in this country I don't think it would take much to tip us over the edge.

"it is just an expense" - no it is not it is the well being of the worker, and it is in the best interest of the business to keep workers healthy is it not?

Very well put!

I would also like to add, if we are responsible for our own health insurance and can't afford it and get sick, don't you all think the companies will suffer also? They would have to fill your spot at least temporarily, do they not want their employees to remain healthy so they will not have to lose important workers?

[edit on 31-7-2009 by ldyserenity]

reply posted on 31-7-2009 @ 10:20 PM by star in a jar

reply to post by grapesofraft
Are you an employer?

If yes, then hmmm...

Or the government could simply cut a few billions from its annual 600 billion dollar military budget, healthcare could be affordable for millions, but that's not going to happen..

[edit on 31-7-2009 by star in a jar]

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