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How did we ever get to the point that employers were expected to pay for your health insurance?

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posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 12:22 AM
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reply to post by badmedia
 


I don't understand how anyone could cite "the market" when people have to deal with medical expenses that are astronomical.

If it were a perfect world, everyone would eat right, exercise and there'd be no obesity/health complications.

This is far from a perfect world. Giving people confidence that they can take care of their problems can be accomplished if they have incentive to do so. In this case, not being saddled with ridiculous medical bills may just help.




posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 12:34 AM
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Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by tothetenthpower
 


See the point you seem to miss is yeah it is free to you,, but somebody is paying those 50k/month medical bills through higher taxes. So I guess it is fair to you that your fellow citizens must pay your bills for you.


Do you honestly believe that the premiums you pay to a private insurer would cover your 50k/month medical bills? It's the premiums from your fellow citizens who belong to the same private health care plan that would be paying for your bills. Seems to me that is just as fair as paying for it through taxes.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 12:47 AM
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What we need to do is get all these losers who have been on welfare for AGES and AGES off their A** and out into the work force or simply leave them to the dogs, so to speak. They suck up our resources until they dry it all up, this is the reason why we're in such a state at this moment. How, If I don't think I am entitled to livign a certain lifestyle, is it right for anybody to feel that way? It's not. If you want things in life, you got to work for it. Even if you are just getting by, nobody told someone else to be a loser, nobody pointed a gun to their head and said "Drop out of school and get knocked up and dependant on drugs for the rest of your life" Nope, nobody. We need reform from the welfare, seriously, then maybe there would be more money in the hands of the people who do BUST their A every day! And I'd say yes to National healthcare if they took welfare out of the mix!!!! I already paid a chunk into that and could never get the help I needed when I had shtf. Not even temporarily!!! And that's why welfare was created in the first place as temporary help if you lost your spouse or he lost his income or you both lost your income, it was set up to be temporary!

[edit on 1-8-2009 by ldyserenity]



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 12:53 AM
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reply to post by ldyserenity
 


You're missing the point.

We spend BILLIONS of dollars a year to support the inefficient military-industrial complex, especially when it involves our wars overseas (Iraq and Afghanistan) and our bases in many countries.

The amount going towards welfare is MINISCULE compared to how much we spend on war/defense.

You need to put aside the right-wing brainwashing and look at the truth.

We can help people and we can help AMERICA if we bring our troops home and reduce defense spending.

Al-Queda? Terrorism? It's a manufactured threat that keeps the military-industrial complex in business.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 12:57 AM
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reply to post by Janitor From Mars
 


So your suggestion is that we pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan so that the Iranians and Syrians can meet in the middle as soon as we are out and the Russians can finally have Afghanistan just so we can hand lazy ass people some more stuff to encourage them not to work? Great Idea!



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 01:01 AM
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reply to post by Janitor From Mars
 


Yes that is also part of the problem, but what I am most aggravated with is the welfare system right now and yes there are personal issues with it. Because my Hubby's ex is a career welfare white trash queen that he had to pay support to meanwhile her kids went hungry while she took that money and the CS and took trips to NY while my kids went without at times because we had to pull our strings tight because of that crappy a** system. There's a plethora of other reasons as well. How about the politicians take a pay cut? Why should they make six figures when they're doing such a crappy A** job? I could probably do a better job and I would take less pay for it, as well, of course I'd never even get into the running because I don't have the capital and a thought has never crossed my mind to swindle anybody else out of money to run my campaign. Anyway once you are in the running, even if you are intelligent and would make a difference everybody still thinks of you as a politician and evil right off the bat.

The list goes on and on and on... so many problems so little time... as they say.

[edit on 1-8-2009 by ldyserenity]

[edit on 1-8-2009 by ldyserenity]



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 01:18 AM
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Originally posted by grapesofraft


So your suggestion is that we pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan so that the Iranians and Syrians can meet in the middle as soon as we are out and the Russians can finally have Afghanistan just so we can hand lazy ass people some more stuff to encourage them not to work? Great Idea!


Wow you really are still stuck in the red scare.

You honestly think Russia gives a damn about Afghanistan? After we did everything we could to destabilize the region back in the 80's? Even the Afghanis don't want to be in Afghanistan.

Besides, I don't know if you've picked up a newspaper in the past 20 years, but Russia has been our ally for some time now.

And yes, if we pulled out of these ridiculously expensive foreign occupations we could afford to put all the homeless in homes, make sure no one in America went hungry, and provide adequate healthcare to all. Oh, but you don't think they deserve it because they're 'lazy'. Right.

I hope, for your sake, you never come on hard times yourself. You might learn a lesson or two the hard way.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 01:40 AM
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Originally posted by grapesofraft
reply to post by tothetenthpower
 




Wal-Mart gets away with what they do because they are the Al Capone of Capitalism, they come in and take over and destroy communities with their cheap products and low prices.


Oh so now they are equal to criminals? They dont take over and destroy communities. Have you seen Wal-Mart driving down the road in a tank wiping out everyone and everything in its path.


Indeed, I have!



[edit on 1-8-2009 by Xtraeme]



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 01:41 AM
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reply to post by Xtraeme
 


I submit to your point of view. That was great. I wish I could give you more than a star for that. I stand corrected!



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 01:43 AM
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reply to post by St Vaast
 


Of course that would be nice. I was mostly responding to the OP's questions about expecting employers to pay for health insurance.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 04:38 AM
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Originally posted by drwizardphd

Originally posted by grapesofraft


So your suggestion is that we pull out of Iraq and Afghanistan so that the Iranians and Syrians can meet in the middle as soon as we are out and the Russians can finally have Afghanistan just so we can hand lazy ass people some more stuff to encourage them not to work? Great Idea!


Wow you really are still stuck in the red scare.

You honestly think Russia gives a damn about Afghanistan? After we did everything we could to destabilize the region back in the 80's? Even the Afghanis don't want to be in Afghanistan.

Besides, I don't know if you've picked up a newspaper in the past 20 years, but Russia has been our ally for some time now.

And yes, if we pulled out of these ridiculously expensive foreign occupations we could afford to put all the homeless in homes, make sure no one in America went hungry, and provide adequate healthcare to all. Oh, but you don't think they deserve it because they're 'lazy'. Right.

I hope, for your sake, you never come on hard times yourself. You might learn a lesson or two the hard way.


well the red scare is as true as the joint space mission was a failiur during the coldwar.

acturly the rest of the world learnt it the hard way , usa was more or less responcible for the near global economic collaps that almost brougth iceland down and now they have to apply for E.U membership just to keep on its legs (one example), i know people who lost money because of fraudulent bank investments who´s trails leads to u.s investment banks.
on top of that oil prices that rocket sky high even thou demand is record low etc etc etc, more or less because of U.s govermental insane spendings on wars and a credit/currency system that has no value, but i guess im one of the few that acturly make the connection it seams ,

u.s spent about 100 times my countrys yearly budget on firecrackers and what not yet cant support its own people with a health care plan ?

i dont have the numbers rigth here rigth now but what the u.s has lent from others and spent in in these years after 9/11 could have gone to so many other benefitial things its just mind boggling to even think about it.


so the 12 trillion dollar question is where does your tax money go if all is spent of a wars fought on forign soil ?

i recall someone saying its hard to see the forest because of all the trees that are in the way when your standing in the middle of it.




posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 12:23 PM
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Originally posted by Janitor From Mars
reply to post by badmedia
 


I don't understand how anyone could cite "the market" when people have to deal with medical expenses that are astronomical.

If it were a perfect world, everyone would eat right, exercise and there'd be no obesity/health complications.

This is far from a perfect world. Giving people confidence that they can take care of their problems can be accomplished if they have incentive to do so. In this case, not being saddled with ridiculous medical bills may just help.


No offense, but this is exactly the reason why it will likely not get fixed. As you say, people are unable to make the connections. And I understand, it's not an easy connection to make, and you really need to understand our economic system too see it.

But what I am doing is looking at why the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer. I'm looking at why they can't afford the healthcare in the first place. And it is because our entire monetary system is a system that is designed to transfer the wealth from the poor to the rich.

There is a reason why the poor keep getting poorer, and the rich keep getting richer. And IMO, that is the root of the problem, and the root of many other problems as well that arise from poverty.

But because the people do not understand the scam of the monetary system, they are unable to make the connections. So rather than getting to the root cause of the problem, we keep looking for ways of living with the cause, and making the symptoms just a tad bit more bearable. But in reality, this is really to praise/thank the people who steal $20 from you, but then give you back $5. Rather than being thankful for the $5 back, I'd rather stop them from taking the $20 in the first place.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 02:03 PM
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The brainwashed corporate bootlicking right-wing fanatics never cease to amaze me. We used to be a country by the people and for the people. Now we are a bunch of brainwashed fools that have to drop our heads to the big corporate machine so we can survive.

How can anyone think that people need to be responsible for our own health care when its unaffordable for the individual to do so?

People in other developed countries demand a better way of life from the corporate machine like we used too. They act as one and are undivided and understand the benifit of unions.

They dont let there government spend all its wealth on its military machine but use that money to benefit its people and not its multinational corporations to clear there way in other countries with a military that is paid by the sweat of its tax payers.

The right-wing Christian nut cases have ruined our nation. I am to the point that I want to move to another country.

Canada will you take me?



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 02:14 PM
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reply to post by grapesofraft
 


Yeah, actually my taxes have been lowered in the POOREST province in the country in the past 3 years running.

I pay LESS taxes and still get the same ammount of coverage. So trust me, people don't mind.

Again, you are stuck in the red scare as people say. You fear something that you just don't understand, you think it will cost more and that it will result in a failure of the medical system.

Your system is already a failure.

I'm sorry but in YOUR system, in order for a child who is dying to get the care they require, like a transplant, it costs hundreds of thousands of dollars and the wait lists and ridiculously long.

Now in Canada, the wait list may be a bit long, but at least we don't have to wonder if I can put food on the table after my child comes back from the dead.

You just don't seem to understand that Nationalized healthcare WORKS, so long as it is run properly. And I keep saying and you keep evading this very point:

There are horror stories in EVERY system, nothing is perfect, but sorry to say, ours is better than yours.

Reply To LoneGunMan

Yes, yes we will
.

~Keeper

[edit on 8/1/2009 by tothetenthpower]



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 02:32 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Id; love to see documentation for that one.

Ok, here you go:
Washington Times

Here is another one:
Heritage

This is typical in Canada and all socialized medicine plans. What you are saying is totally false and either you are ignorant of the situation or you are being purposefully disingenuous. Which is it? Google is your friend. There are hundreds of these same type of stories about people not being able to get the urgent care they need. The wait is unbearable.


And it's not just one experience, allow me to explain how good Canadian Health Care is my friend.

Oh, please. If true, I'm sorry about your son but for starters, nothing is free. You are paying for your care and everyone elses healthcare via taxes.

Look, the Canadian system is adaquate if you are young and healthy but once you start to have urgent needs like heart valves and cancer, you are # out of luck. Especially if you get old. The only way they can keep costs down is to deny treatment to the elderly. They ration it by saying they are to old and the necessary treatement is not worth it.

Secondly, did you have a healthplan in the U.S.? If not, of course it's going to be expensive.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 02:36 PM
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reply to post by WhatTheory
 


Look friend, I've had Health Care for 37 years in Canada, and my husband for 40, and we've NEVER had a problem. Sure I've waited 6 hours in the emergency room when my daughter had a fever or something non emergency-ish, but what do you expect.

As I said, there are horror stories in all systems, I didn't say it was perfect, stop grasping at straws to prove that the EVIL Canadians are ruining ourselves with our healthcare.

If you like paying the ridiculous cost you pay for your healthcare, by all means go right ahead and do so, but don't bash the countries who actually make some sort of effort to help out their own.

And yes I pay taxes, but I pay LESS taxes than you do my friend, and I get MORE from my government than you do, don't you see how that is a benefit to me?

And by free, I mean I pay NO out of pocket, I file my taxes once a year, and get a hefty return. So, you can say whatever it is you want, but I will never agree that YOUR system is better than ours, it just isn't.

And speaking of horror stories, you said that peole from here went to the States for treatment, well let me tell you a little story.

The province of Ontario a few years ago starting issuing PHOTO healthcare cards for the first time ever. Why did they do this?

Because there thousands of Americans BUYING our medicare cards and getting treatment in Canada for free.

~Keeper

[edit on 8/1/2009 by tothetenthpower]

[edit on 8/1/2009 by tothetenthpower]



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 02:50 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
Look friend, I've had Health Care for 37 years in Canada, and my husband for 40, and we've NEVER had a problem.

For starters, who knows if you are telling the truth. We don't know your agenda if any. Your story seems more like when people say, "My friend is black".


So I will not base my knowledge on your supposed situation. Instead, I will read everything and base my own opinion. And everything points to just the opposite of what you are saying.


stop grasping at straws to prove that the EVIL Canadians are ruining ourselves with our healthcare.

It's not grasping at anything. There are hundreds in not thousands of the type of stories I posted in my previous thread.

I am not saying that you or your healthcare is evil.
This must be you being oversensitive. All I am saying is that I prefer our system over your system.

However, trying to prove that the Canadian system is better is like trying to prove the Earth is flat. It's just not possible.
Where do you think all the medical technological advances come from which eventually your Canadian system will use? Yep, America. America does most of the R&D and development. Because of the way our system is set-up, everyone gets more advanced healthcare.


If you like paying the ridiculous cost you pay for your healthcare, by all means go right ahead and do so, but don't bash the countries who actually look out for their own.

Ok, then don't bash ours.

Healthcare is not really that expensive here. I guess you are reading all that liberal propaganda.
I'm sure you read the latest poll where 85% of Americans are happy with their healthcare plan.


So, you can say whatever it is you want, but I will never agree that YOUR system is better than ours, it just isn't.

Well of course you will not. That is because you are a good little brainwashed citizen who feels comfortable with government involvement into their lives from cradle to grave. The government has done such a great job there, you want more government and are happy to accept it. Wow
I really feel sorry for you.

[edit on 8/1/2009 by WhatTheory]



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 03:03 PM
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reply to post by WhatTheory
 


Ofcourse, because I disagree with you I'm obviously lying. Why does everybody who has an opinion suddenly have an agenda around here?

Paranoia much? What could I possibly gain by coming on here and spewing lies and BS. Entertainment purposes? I think not.

I am also obviously brainwashed, and no I'm sorry but our government sucks just as much as yours do, the only difference is we have less people to worry about, so obviously the situation is a little better.

I will agree that the US does make alot of advancement in Technology and in treatment as far as medicine goes, that's just undeniable, but that doesn't mean that simply because you make the most head way that you have the best system.

If you did have a great system, there would be no need to overhaul it now would there? And if 85% of people were actually happy with their situation, healthcare would not be the single biggest issue in the your country right now.

Who did they poll? Probably upper middle class white folk, yeah they sure are happy with their medicare, their employers probably pay for it, and they simply pay low cost premiums every month.

And as far as I am concerned, if I am receiving FREE care, when your system requires that I PAY for that care, that makes my system better. And it's not about having the newest and shiniest procedures, it's about having care that's adequate.

I don't need the BEST healthcare in the world, because I don't have problems that require it. My son on the other hand, requires the best that is available, and yes I sometimes need to pay for it, but what I am saving, by being a Canadian citizen, and taking advantage of the programs they offer, makes it all worth it.

Canadian Healthcare is THE only thing keeping me from being hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt and on the verge of bankrupcy. That and my incredible good luck in owning a businesses that are successfull, and having a husband whose carreer is a midly lucrative one.

~Keeper




[edit on 8/1/2009 by tothetenthpower]



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 03:07 PM
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Originally posted by tothetenthpower
I don't need the BEST healthcare in the world

Which is my point and why you are happy with the Canadian system.


because I don't have problems that require it.

So screw everybody else right? Wow, how considerate of you.



posted on Aug, 1 2009 @ 03:08 PM
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health coverage being provided by the employer gained it's foothold in the 40's during ww2. the war created a labor shortage, and well, the companies found themselves in competition with each other for the labor...they began by offering higher wages, but then the gov't froze the wages, so well, the benefits were used to compete for the labor, with healthcare coverage being a favorite.

www.ehow.com...



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