My arrest hell after gang beat son

A man in my area killed an intruder just last week! He is 72 years old, and he shot the intruder dead! Now police are pressing charges against the 3 accomplices of the break-in for murder! The resident is a local hero. The accomplices were party to a felony in which someone was killed (their own guy), so they are being tried for murder!

groups.google.co.uk...

This is how the law is supposed to work!

Other guns used in self defense in my area alone:

sharerevmedia.com...

www.wctv.tv...

www.youtube.com...

forums.1911forum.com...

There were plenty of others!!!

if it were my son and he was 25 years old i wouldnt have to go out and help him because he would pull his .45 XD and threaten them to get off our property. then if they tried to attack which i dont think they would, just 2 against 1 gives the person the person the right to use deadly force. drop them if they attack, get a very good lawyer and carry a concealed license. remember 1 on 1, if they have a edged weapon you can use a gun and deadly force, if they have a blunted weapon like a bat, you can use an edged weapon, if they outnumber you by just 2 to 1, thats deadly force.

five times in the chest is overboard though. thats why they are looking at him for murder. i know in the heat of the moment trying to save a family member you just react but, you could have sliced his achilles tendon or just a stab in the leg will make him stop fighting. i guess this didnt happen in TX.

"I was terrified and when Alex tried to calm him down, the other four got worked up and attacked him.

"Alex ended up on the ground with all five yobs on him, kicking him in the head and stomach. I screamed for Colin and he came out, barefoot and half asleep.

For those who did not read the story...

5 people beating up one person, kicking him in the head and such.

This was NOT JUST A CONFRONTATION. The son tried to tell them off, and they reacted with violence.

The dad is in EVERY right to stab those suckers.

In this type of situation grabbing a baseball bat would have been the proper procedure. Bust some knee caps. If the group of 5 younger adults was armed with anything other than fists then the baseball bat could have been escalated to the status of knife. BUT knife stabs should have been restricted to the leg area unless the gang had knifes as well then the status should have been shoot first ask questions later.

reply to post by axehappy



This is the only reason I never want to be like the UK. Not because of some sort of socialist system, NHS, but because a common complaint I've heard from the British is a legal system that is designed to protect the criminal and oftenly puts people in jail who have morally committed no crime.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

In this type of situation grabbing a baseball bat would have been the proper procedure. Bust some knee caps.

I say this every so often, so I will repeat it again......Baseball bats are not effective weapons. I have taken several of them away from people. They intimidate pretty well, but they will help you very, very LITTLE against more than one assailant, or against an assailant with the most basic fight training!

You can use them to "poke" at somebody and keep them at a safe distance. The second you try to swing it, somebody is going to grab you, and the bat, and now you are the victim of your own weapon!

A little "mini bat" is pretty good, as are "night-sticks" and "batons" and the such, but never, ever, go after a gang of thugs with a regular baseball bat unless you are looking for a bunch of lumps on your head!

[edit on 27-7-2009 by getreadyalready]

Originally posted by Bombeni
In the US only about 80-100 years ago this would not have been an issue whatsoever. Men wore their guns on their side and protected themselves and their families. The only people who were prosecuted were the ones who shot people unprovoked or in robbery etc. You could even shoot someone for horse stealing, which was a little too much.

Now, the criminal has MORE rights than the law abiding citizen. People have had it up to their eyeballs with thugs and punks.

He shouldn't even go to trial imo, but if he does he should claim temp insanity and be acquitted.

Exactly.

This is my opinion but it should be the law. The moment, the moment you make up your mind to commit a crime, ANY crime, you wave all rights as a human being. You are an animal and are treated as such. Cops would love this law if they had brains enough to restrain themselves from over doing it and making poor judgement calls.

BUT....as Ayn Rand stated in her very famous book "Atlas Shrugged", "who wants a nation of law abiding citizens, what good is there in that for anyone?. Anyone in government, nothing." Think about it. If we were ALL law abiding citizens what would the cops have to do? Government would shrink in size and authority. So who do you think promotes these types of activities by looking the other way or ignoring complaints and not filing them?

Guilt by acquisence is still guilt.

People NEED to really wake up and exercise some of their common sense. Understand who is doing what and what is going on.

Simple really. This man should be left alone. Not praised but let be.

[edit on 27-7-2009 by daddio]

[edit on 27-7-2009 by daddio]

Sad that this gentleman will probably now be sued over this and lose that beautiful 500,000 dollar home he worked his entire life for.

Originally posted by ukman2009
There is no way under the english judicial system that this man will be cleared at trial, he will be charged with either murder or manslaughter, here in england we are not allowed to defend our property or our family, as soon as we do, we are the criminals, these scumbags are running riot round our streets because they know there is nothing that we can do about it!

that is simply terrible.

not to be able to defend yourself or your family? what are you englishmen supposed to do when rapists/murders break in and molest your wife and kids before they kill your whole family? just stand there and watch?

that is soms horrible laws you have there.

Originally posted by getreadyalready
reply to post by TurkeyBurgers

 

In this type of situation grabbing a baseball bat would have been the proper procedure. Bust some knee caps.

I say this every so often, so I will repeat it again......Baseball bats are not effective weapons. I have taken several of them away from people. They intimidate pretty well, but they will help you very, very LITTLE against more than one assailant, or against an assailant with the most basic fight training!

You can use them to "poke" at somebody and keep them at a safe distance. The second you try to swing it, somebody is going to grab you, and the bat, and now you are the victim of your own weapon!

A little "mini bat" is pretty good, as are "night-sticks" and "batons" and the such, but never, ever, go after a gang of thugs with a regular baseball bat unless you are looking for a bunch of lumps on your head!

[edit on 27-7-2009 by getreadyalready]

I guess you have never been hit with a baseball bat. Trust me here bud. It is a VERY effective weapon. I guess you blokes in the U.K. wouldn't know how to properly swing a baseball bat since you only play "soccer". Here in the good ol' US of A we take our bats seriously. We don't play "Cricket". We swing for the fences. Nothing says "Unusable arm" like a shattered collarbone.

Good luck trying to block the downward swing of a bat with your forearm.Good luck trying to block a leg shot with your knee.

Come across the pond and try and "Take away" a bat lol. Maybe it is best that your government disarmed your populace. If you cannot even understand the workings of a bat how could you be expected to understand how to safely operate a firearm?

Originally posted by pieman

Originally posted by axehappy
I can't really blame this man for what happened.

Its unfortunate that someone died, but murder!?

He was just defending his property and family surely?

so the cops, in your estimation, should be able to turn up at an incident where a teenager has been stabbed 5 times and, after asking what had happened, decide not to arrest the stabber because the kid that was stabbed deserved it?

these were vandals and, according to the sun, it was an ongoing issue. the son in law should have called the cops, not tackled the vandals, the father should have called the cops, not stabbed a kid five times in the chest.

if you pick up a knife and stab someone, you should always have to answer for it, otherwise you could just stab someone every time you felt threatened.

You must be kidding me?

First off it is 5 on 1. Do some of you even realize what can happen from a simple "fist fight"? In this fight a 19 year old man was punched one time, hitting his head on the ground. He later DIED from that one simple punch. These 5 people were pounding on a downed man, kicking him in his head. Even in mixed martial arts sporting events, you can not kick a downed opponent in the head, the risk of serious injury is simply to great. That alone is an act that justifies deadly force, because deadly force was being used on the 25 year old man.

Let's switch it up a little bit. What if I, in an obvious moment of complete stupidity, were fighting with a police officer. I get him down to the ground and continue to pound on him and kick him in the head, would he be justified in shooting me and using deadly force? The clear answer is YES, the officer would be justified in using deadly force to stop my attack and protect his life. Why is the average citizen not awarded that same standard?

If he had time to stab someone 5 times blah blah blah.... spare me!!!! It takes less than a full second to stab someone. In a chaotic situation such as this, not everyone involved will see the actual stabbing. They usually see the effects AFTER the stabbing. As someone who has been stabbed before, I can tell you that you do not even feel the stabbing right away and if your adrenaline is pumping, I can promise you it will take a minute. So what do you do? Stab someone one time and allow them to continue to attack you, or do you stab that person until the attack stops? We are not talking about a crime of passion, or something planned and calculated. We are talking about a spur of the moment attack and someone who was forced to defend himself, his property and his family and had to make that decision in a split second.

This man disposed of an immediate threat. Had he stabbed all 5 people, you would have a fair argument that what he did was excessive and criminal. He didn't do that, he stabbed ONE attacker and ended what was clearly a vicious attack against his family member on his own doorstep. This man should be applauded for his bravery when the odds were clearly not in his favor. This guy didnt even go get a real knife... no kitchen knife, hunting knife, no it was a letter opener. Obviously the man armed himself with the nearest thing he could, and in a 5 on 1 situation that just equals out the odds a bit and the fact that only one person was stabbed clearly indicates it was self defense and not an act of criminal violence.

Edited to add: And for the "he should have called the police" crowd.... I do not know what it is like in the UK, but in my area I would have waited 30+ minutes before the police actually arrived. By that time, my van would have been stripped down, torn apart, and sold for parts by the time the police actually arrived to ask me what the problem was.

[edit on 27-7-2009 by MrWendal]

The man had no choice. Had he used his fists the mob would have sent him and his step sun to hospital for a long time. The fact he hurt one seriously and terrified the gang probably save his life in the end.

Even if the law is an ass, he is alive.

reply to post by axehappy


really all i have to say is you hit the nail on the head. and i actually completely agree.

I dont know the laws in the UK but I think they were right to arrest the man. Just as they should have arrested all five kids. You cant go anyones story in that situation because they were all involved. Now I dont think the the huy should be found guilty of a thing. He acted to protect his family, his property, and basicly his way of life. (that van = money, no van no job no money) I would have acted pretty much that same but I would have had a gun. He was just protecting his family/property. Thats allowed by law here but maybe it's diffrent accross the pond

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


I am in the US. (Florida) And I have been hit by baseball bats. Twice by accident (worst injuries) and a couple of times on purpose (ineffective).

(For the record I have also been Tazed and Pepper Sprayed, although not by police, I hear their stuff is quite a bit stronger!)

That is exactly why I post this warning every time I see someone suggesting it as a weapon. I must admit I have some fight training, so my ability to take away a bat is probably a little better than the average person's, but it is fairly easy. It takes a good bit of time to swing a bat with any force, therefore it is rather easy to either keep your distance and rush in after a swing, or step in close and grab the person during the swing. If it is done correctly you wind up holding the bat!

You are right about not blocking it with an arm! The end of a bat shoved in someone's face is VERY effective. But swinging is only good in the movies!

If you don't believe me, try it with your buddies.

reply to post by pieman


What ignorant posts. So if your son or daughter was being attacked you would stand there, let them be beaten possibly to death while you "do the right thing" and call the police and let the law take care of it? I tell you right now, if that was my daughter or my son being beaten like that they would all be dead. Yes the son shouldn't have gone out there, but he did. Like most young men, he was being rash.

Originally posted by jd140
reply to post by axehappy

 

If there are 5 of them and you have the time to stab a kid in the chest 5 times then chances are it isn't as bad as it was made out to be.

Unless of course he concentrated on one while 4 beat down his son.

The situation was bad. It doesn't take long to stab someone that many times if you are in a state of fear and adrenaline. This man was on full adrenaline to save his son. It was a bad situation, but an arm chair critic like you would obviously know better right?

reply to post by getreadyalready


If you are still trying to argue that baseball bats are not a dangerous weapon than I do not know what to tell you. All I can imagine is that you do not know how to swing. You keep talking about sticking it in someones face to keep them at bay. Why would you even start to do something ridiculous like that?

No wonder someone took the bat away from you!

If you want to argue that a 3 foot weapon weighing between 2-14 pounds is less effective than a shorter lighter close range weapon than you have never encountered someone who has even the most basic understanding of how to swing a "club". When a 8 pound Louisville slugger is shattering your knee cap you are not going to be taking away anything.

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


lmfao are you serious?

OK, go try to fight 5 grown men with a knife and you're only allowed to attack the 5 men's legs. You're probably going to get killed or beaten up really badly for trying that.

I swear some people here watch kung fu movies or something and think they can pull off law of physics breaking flying somersaults to achilles tendon rips in real life.

People in the Boxer rebellion thought they could do stuff like that too. They all got massacred by the British.

[edit on 7/27/09 by RedDragon]

reply to post by TurkeyBurgers


..... Try using a baseball bat vs 5 people. Seriously, try. One swing might take 1 guy out then you have 4 more to deal with. Groups of people in real life don't do the kung fu hustle where 1 guy attacks you at a time while all the other people stand around watching doing kung fu flips. After that 1 swing, the other 4 guys will tackle you and probably beat you with your own bat.

At least with a knife, you have a slight chance since you can stab and retract really quickly so as not to leave yourself open to counter attacks.

People criticizing this guy for stabbing the kid 5 times are also absurd. Freaking sparring in boxing and MMA @ 50% power with gloves on gets out of control sometimes and me and the other guy swing 100% trying to KO each other. In a real life or death fight against 5 guys, yeah good luck controlling yourself. You won't be able to overcome instinct and adrenaline rush (aka a naturally produced drug intoxicating you) in a situation like that.

I mean, guys have 20+ professional MMA and boxing fights that are in a ring, with a referee, 1 on 1, doctors on side, with rules, with protection equipment, .00001% chance of dying or serious injury, and have trouble overcoming instinct @ times.


Expecting someone to think rationally in a real 5 on 1 self-defense situation where there is a good probability of dying or getting seriously injured is crazy.

[edit on 7/27/09 by RedDragon]

[edit on 7/27/09 by RedDragon]