New theory suggests that we may not be alone after all

reply to post by warrenb


always wanted to watch this!
thanks for the link =)

Originally posted by schrodingers dog

Originally posted by tezzajw
Trying to associate probability to other life forms is pointless. They either exist, or they don't.

Of course you are within your rights to interpret the universe in this context but it's not really how science (for what it is worth) operates.

Well, yes, it is how science operates.

Probability is a branch of mathematics and mathematics is the language of science. We have calculable, theoretical probability from events such as tossing dice.

We have subjective probability from random trials, such as horse races. Given the history of the horses, bookmakers frame a subjective odds market.

I can you ask what are the chances that it might rain tomorrow. Based on past history, you can give me a rough estimate for rain tomorrow.

However, assigning a probability for alien life existing is meaningless. It is either true or false and the nature of this can not be determined unless an exhaustive search of the Universe has been conducted. If you search the entire Universe and find no alien life, then it does not exist. If while searching the Universe, alien life is confirmed, then yes, it does exist.

The more appropriate assignment of probability, to alien life, would be in regards to the probability that alien life exists upon a certain planet, or in a certain solar system, or in a certain galaxy. However, that would imply that alien life does exist somewhere for us to try and associate a probability for existence in a particular location. In this case, the existence of alien life is a given axiom.

We know that life exists in the Universe - us. It has not been confirmed that alien life exists elsewhere. Either it does, or doesn't, but at the moment, officially, we don't know.

Originally posted by schrodingers dog
Much of cosmology, astrophysics, theoretical physics, etc, works by deduction, probability, and indirectly observed evidence. Dark matter and even black holes are not directly observable, their existence is understood and inferred by observing their effects on other stellar bodies.

You're not clear with this paragraph. What relevance does assigning a probability for the existence of a black hole (or dark matter) have on the actual existence of a black hole (or dark matter)? Either they exist, or they don't.

Look up the Goldbach Conjecture. It is either true or false. However, stating a probability for it being true or false is meaningless. Presently, no one knows if is true or false. It's an outstanding problem that has not been solved.

Similarly, until 1994, Fermat's Last Theorem was not known to be true or false. However, due to some human brilliance, it was eventually proven to be true.

I do believe that alien life exists. Therefore I am more than happy to assign probabilities that alien life may exist in any particular place, because I believe they do exist somewhere.

People who do not believe in alien life can not speculate on the probability for them existing anywhere, as they have ruled out them existing anywhere.

It is pointless to speculate that aliens might exist in a particular location, unless you already believe that they must exist somewhere.

Probability is a concept that is very counter-intuitve to a lot of people's everyday beliefs. It's kind of why casinos exist. People don't generally know the odds, how to apply them, what they mean and if it's even appropriate to try and assign odds.

Love it! Scientific wording for "what do we really think we know anyways...everything changes." Great find

reply to post by Raider of Truth


I Just watched "They Live" and omg the resmblance to today is uncanny
and i had those same headaches when i first started learning about Aliens and the NWO agenda.. wow whats really scary is the fact that..

This film was done in 1988.. 2008 the recession hits..just like in that film!

great film would love to see a remake though ^^

Well, since I am a nobody but one that has been in alien presence a number of times I will tell you all as I have many times.

Ufo's and Aliens are the real deal there are so many life forms here and elsewhere that are parallel to us.

The human race is considered a stupid and hostile species but they say humans do have intelligence and worth a study.

Evolve? If man supposedly evolved from monkeys then why are there still monkeys?

IF the Universe is Truely infinite.....

Then we have to conclude that there are infinite numbers of planets with life on them, all sorts, from microbes, to beings 1,000,000 x's more advanced than us.

You can go as far as to say that if the universe is truely infinite, therte are exact copies of earth out there somewhere, where there are all the same people on it as this one, but thier history might hvae diverged a bit.

Really the only thing stopping us from finding these infinite amounts of life, and planets, and identical earths is the pure Vastness of space, and of course Time.

Even our Suns life span is just a short blink of an eye on the cosmic timescale. The chances of another race, makeing it's way to us, at this perfect point in time.....the odds are just too unlikely.

But again with the universe being infinite It Will happen, and Has happened already. Everything you can possibly think of has already been thought of. It has ALL Been Done.

Also IF time travel were possible, wouldn't the travelers from the future be here already? Unless of course, this is the Very first go around for the the universe. It's impossible the even wrap your head around these concepts.

I believe, the universe has always been here, and will always be here, there is no beggining, there is no end, it just IS. Time and life, and the Universe being like and enourmous never ending, ever expanding fractal.

But again the oh so short time our lives are when compared to the life cycle of a galaxy or somerthing is again just a blink of an eye. The chances of anotherspecies makeing contact with us are astronomical. But with the infinite universe, contact between different species from different planets will happen /has happened so many times, infinite amounts of times, it's a nice thought. But again will we be so lucky?

We are already lucky enough to just even be here, even if there will be no trace of Earth, our Sun, the Milky Way in the not too distant future on the cosmic timescale. We should cherish every breath we take, every moment we get to live, every experience we are blessed with. (no I do not believe in god, or a creator, but blessed seemed like the appropriate word).

We should really consider this, and try to be peaceful, and helpful to eachother for every single moment we live is a gift really. I know it sounds cheesy, but it is true. I think we take our lives for granted, and other people as well.

reply to post by observe50


I myself have experienced the same, telepathically and physically, it is the real deal
anyone that says otherwise needs to wake up

When these original calculations were made, were they based on life starting from scratch ( ie. without basic organic molecules ) or did they include the more recent discoveries of amino acids etc. being found in comets that would deliver a 'kick start' to the whole process?

While the original study points to a relatively small window of opportunity when the star is in the ideal phase of it's life ( 'life friendly' as the author puts it ), perhaps this is all that's required. The 'path to complex life' may, in fact, be many times shorter than was accounted for.

Traditionally this theory's main problem was that the organic molecule would have had to 'survive' the incredibly hostile environment of space but recent discoveries regarding 'extremeaphobes' have indicated that even some bacteria could survive in such conditions.

Some-one once told me a camera that had been left on the moon by one of the Apollo missions was recovered by a subsequent one and they found bacteria in the lens that had survived in a hibernation like state. However, i must point out that i have not seen an official account of this.

en.wikipedia.org...

If 'Panspermia' were to be correct then we could reasonably expect to see some form of life on any body in space that had the basic Prerequisites ( water, heat etc. ). If there were to be underground water on Mars, for example, then it's highly possible that it is absolutely teaming with microbial life. Not life that has evolved there from scratch, but life has has been 'delivered' there already 'built' and just waiting for the right conditions to come about for it to evolve into something more complex.

Hopefully NASA or ESA will get out to Jupiter's moon Europa that's reckoned to have water oceans below it's surface. If i had to bet everything i owned on it, ( not a threat that will worry our friends?! at Goldman Sachs i can tell you ) i would go for the universe being teeming with life and therefore logically, although admittedly to a much lesser scale, teeming with complex life forms.

Anyway, first post so go easy on me if i've said something stupid / breached etiquette or something.

Peace out!


nik

reply to post by Nohup


This is the exact conclusion that Amir Aczel gives in his book "Probability 1" - following simple rules of statistics, it is obvious that one that is now looking for something\somebody like him/her has quite good chances to be the first person that does it. Thus, since we believe that any advance civilization will keep searching for intelligence life in the Universe, exactly like we do it here, we are probably most advanced civilization in existence

reply to post by amyfriend


Oh yes, once we create FTL capable spacecraft (if it is possible or if our government has not already ) we will be opened up to a MUCH larger world full of life. Some less intelligent than us, some the same or more. For that day I personally can not wait.

Even if FTL travel was possible it would be far from "instantaneous". It would take pretty long to accelerate to that speed without harming the passenger..

I really wouldn't call the idea that we are not alone "new".

Brandon Carter is in the vast minority of scientists who think we could be alone in the universe. Most scientists are very comfortable with the idea of other intelligent life in the Universe -- and even in our galaxy.

Originally posted by kirils
reply to post by Nohup

 

This is the exact conclusion that Amir Aczel gives in his book "Probability 1" - following simple rules of statistics, it is obvious that one that is now looking for something\somebody like him/her has quite good chances to be the first person that does it. Thus, since we believe that any advance civilization will keep searching for intelligence life in the Universe, exactly like we do it here, we are probably most advanced civilization in existence

Here are a few possibilities to ponder:

- Perhaps an advanced civilization is too far from us to have received our radio transmissions yet.

- Perhaps our radio transmissions have gone unnoticed by that advanced civilization (the transmission ARE very weak -- they would need to be looking very specifically at the electromagnetic spectrum to detect them.

Conversely, radio waves from an intelligent ET could be hitting Earth right now, but SETI isn't looking at the right part of the spectrum.

- Perhaps the advanced civilization HAS picked up our signal and HAS returned a reply, but that reply has not reached us yet.

reply to post by DGFenrir


Actually there are ways that would make FTL travel instantaneous, quantum tunneling for example. Even if "warp" or "hyperdrive" was used the time it takes to reach vastly distant stars would be cut down to weeks for some of the furthest that are relevant to our region in the Universe quite possibly.

reply to post by sputnik



Originally posted by sputnik

Some-one once told me a camera that had been left on the moon by one of the Apollo missions was recovered by a subsequent one and they found bacteria in the lens that had survived in a hibernation like state. However, i must point out that i have not seen an official account of this.

Almost correct...Apollo 12 Astronauts recovered the camera from the Surveyor 3:

Conrad and Bean removed pieces of the Surveyor 3, to be taken back to Earth for analysis. It is claimed that the common bacterium Streptococcus mitis was found to have accidentally contaminated the spacecraft's camera prior to launch and survived dormant in this harsh environment for two and a half years. However, this finding has since been disputed: see the article Reports of Streptococcus mitis on the moon.

en.wikipedia.org...

Reports of Streptococcus mitis on the moon

As part of the Apollo 12 mission, the camera from the Surveyor 3 probe was brought back to Earth. On analysing the camera it was found that the common bacterium Streptococcus mitis was alive on the camera. This was attributed to the camera not being sterilised on Earth prior to its launch two and a half years previously and this is still the conclusion accepted by NASA for these findings.

Since then, there has been at least one independent investigation into the validity of the NASA claim:

Leonard D. Jaffe, who was Surveyor program scientist and custodian of the Surveyor 3 parts brought back from the Moon, stated in a letter to the Planetary Society that a member of his staff reported that a "breach of sterile procedure" took place at just the right time to produce a false positive result. One of the implements being used to scrape samples off the Surveyor parts was laid down on a non-sterile laboratory bench, and then was used to collect surface samples for culturing.

en.wikipedia.org...


However, notwithstanding that little episode, I think there is some good evidence for panspermia, as you suggest.

Panspermia, though, is not really necessary as will be seen in the following video. It follows, logically, that similar conditions as the ancient and primitive Earth could have existed/do exist on other worlds. The basics of chemistry are sufficient to account for abiogenesis, whether here, or elsewhere in the Galaxy or the Universe.....



I highly recommend this user's other videos, as well as a user named 'DonExodus2'



[edit on 16 July 2009 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by weedwhacker


More importantly than a bacteria how about a Mosquito?!?!

Mosquito Survives In Outer Space

reply to post by jkrog08


I was in the midst of editing....still not 100% computer efficient.

Mosquitos, eh??? Oh, joy...if they grow as big as Buicks in Alaska, just imagine what will happen in zero-g!!!

The Mormons have known about all these earth-like planets for nearly two centuries. There has to be enough of them for every Mormon living a righteous life to eventually be awarded one to populate and oversee as its God.

"As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become." -Lorenzo Snow, fifth LDS president, 1840.

Originally posted by TurkeyBurgers
I want to disagree with Intelligence being a bad trait. Intelligence is our ability to process data. The more One's and Zero's that you can process the higher your chance of survival goes up. Eye's take processing power, the sense of touch takes processing power, hearing. speech, smell all take processing power. You need more neurons or whatever type of One and Zero's system a creatures brain or organic computer uses. The more neurons to process information the higher the chance of survival.

But to what end...so you are saying that the shark has lived billions of years because of its vast intelligence? We can have a war tomorrow and destroy all humans and the shark will continue on. Also we have the ability to wipe the sharks off the planet where they do not have the same ability to do it to us. So is intelligence really a good thing?

We can process neuron's to knock us right out of existence, and if the same effect happened tomorrow that wiped the dinos out over the course of a few million years would most likely wipe us out in a few years…hehe.