Ethnic mobs overrun Chinese city

In Ethnic Violence there are no winners or losers, no right side or wrong side. There are only losers and all participants are wrong.

The rioters from both sides are not attacking their government, they are attacking each other. There is no innocent side here, only people who hate others who are different in some way.

Originally posted by yiersan

Ps. As for the fabricated terror attacks in NY and the invasions of countries using the Muslim fundamentalists as a scapegoat, let's not even discuss about those jokes (or should I say crimes) over here?

I see this sort of terminology thrown around on ATS a lot, but I've yet to see any backup for the "Illegal Iraq War" or "Criminal Iraq War" claims.

Can someone please cite me the statutory authority for the claim that the Iraq War is "illegal" or "criminal", and the jurisdictional authority that gives legitimacy to the statutes?

Thanks, I'll wait.

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Vitchilo

Chinese authorities say the Xinjiang separatists are terrorists with links to al-Qaeda and receive support from outside the country.

So the CIA is trying to create chaos in China... interesting.

Did you read somewhere else that the CIA played a role, or does that just seem like a logical assumption?

I thought it was just common knowledge that the CIA is al-Qaeda? even the CIA say so.

CIA is Al-Qaeda...

Originally posted by SLAYER69

Once again you're too emotional. Calm down...

I won’t bother wading through all the ranting and raving.

Kinda emotional, and a bit drunk yesterday my apologies for that, I will try to express my opinion in a slightly less-ranted way ;-)
BUT I re-read the posts, though it comes over a bit ranting, I do stand behind what the messages passed across, it is up to you to decide if you have ears for the other side of the story. I do not represent the whole Han Chinese population, but certainly a big portion of it. This is also why thousands of Hans in Urumqi went on street Tuesday seeking for revenge, the water has flooded and the stress among us need to be released. This protest was quickly dispersed by the police...fortunately.

Let me ask you a question?
Is China above scrutiny? Why is it when somebody posts their views about China that it becomes something that has to be attacked? Did I ever state that the communist government was "EVIL"? By trying to put words into my mouth you are just demonstrating your lack of credibility. So you attack those who LOOK at the situation.

Who said China is above any scrutiny or some others would claim that Chinese civilians have the believe we are in a perfect utopia? Unfortunately this is a very imperfect place, but above all, if anyone do understand the history of China a little bit, and especially looking at the modern history starting from the colonial period, you might understand more why we are more sensitive to criticism from abroad, from places where it is also a big mess, ALSO full of hypocrisy and propaganda and deteriorating on a fast pace every single day. I believe most of us will never really understand why these foreigners should care about our domestic issues.

I don’t know... We in the west are only getting one view of the situation really and that's whatever we can get from the Chinese Media.

How come you will only get the views from the Chinese media, when over a 100 international independent media group is still in Urumqi reporting on a daily base? Is it that maybe in the West there is an embedded general impression that it must be the Chinese government who forced these Muslim rioters to kill innocents? Is it maybe that you and your fellow men simply do not believe your own media anymore when the reports from your media about these riots seem to be more in a balanced way and does show that these violence are caused by Muslim individuals and not showing an all-evil China? hmmm....

I see criticism of the US all day long every day. Hell I'm one of the biggest critics of my country. I hear criticism about the US also all day everyday by people from around the world. It doesn’t bother me really it makes me look at my own Government. Do you do the same? Are you afraid to consider your Government may be wrong or has made a mistake?
Well if you cannot answer those questions then we have nothing further to discuss.

Again, who was defending the Chinese government over here? Look at the newspapers, and re-read my posts for once, or dig deeper into WHY thousands of Urumqi HANs went on street on Tuesday for a revenge protests. The criticism is towards Uygur Muslims who overall speaking is the main cause of the social disorders all over China, you know, it is like those irritating annoying Turks in the metro station of Frankfurt causing people being afraid of going out too late, bowing down their heads to hopefully not be noted and walk pass by in quick steps. You live here for a while and commute a bit to downtown.

By the way I'll still continue to post what I want when I want as long as it doesn’t violate the T&C of this site.

nobody asked you to shut up, feel free to continue your opinions, but dig a bit deeper in the roots and causes for the current days violences. You can maybe start by hearing both sides of the stories.

Originally posted by nenothtu

Originally posted by yiersan

Ps. As for the fabricated terror attacks in NY and the invasions of countries using the Muslim fundamentalists as a scapegoat, let's not even discuss about those jokes (or should I say crimes) over here?

I see this sort of terminology thrown around on ATS a lot, but I've yet to see any backup for the "Illegal Iraq War" or "Criminal Iraq War" claims.

Can someone please cite me the statutory authority for the claim that the Iraq War is "illegal" or "criminal", and the jurisdictional authority that gives legitimacy to the statutes?

Thanks, I'll wait.

Nothing is illegal in warfare, anything brought forward are merely the human community who imposed some more "human" games rules. So even invading other countries is your good own rights to do, you are stronger than the other, innit?

The problem is within the hypocrisy and lies to start these wars. If you go for encircling China/Russia, go for the oil etc etc etc, just say so, and don't BS the world community about WMD or trying to give the impression you care about those civilians in those nations.

USA: en.wikipedia.org...
UK: www.publicwhip.org.uk...

I have said enough abt this topic in this thread abt hypocrits

[edit on 8-7-2009 by yiersan]

Originally posted by star in a jar
So can anyone tell me if ordinary Chinese have access to ATS or is it just the government approved ones?

The Uighurs simply don't want to live under China, living like the Chinese, working like the Chinese, living by the Chinese ways. bowing down to the Chinese Hans. So what if they're Muslim? They just don't like the way China does things! That's it!

I'm rooting for the Uighurs, I'm sad though for the men who got arrested. They will never be seen again.

Ordinary ones. You can try that out the next time you are here or ask a friend who you do trust to test it out.

Youtube is blocked though, and some other sites. Unless you use a proxy, not necessary for ATS.

We do have our own equivalent's of Youtube and the like.

Originally posted by yiersan

Originally posted by yiersan

Ps. As for the fabricated terror attacks in NY and the invasions of countries using the Muslim fundamentalists as a scapegoat, let's not even discuss about those jokes (or should I say crimes) over here?

Nothing is illegal in warfare, anything brought forward are merely the human community who imposed some more "human" games rules. So even invading other countries is your good own rights to do, you are stronger than the other, innit?

The problem is within the hypocrisy and lies to start these wars. If you go for encircling China/Russia, go for the oil etc etc etc, just say so, and don't BS the world community about WMD or trying to give the impression you care about those civilians in those nations.

USA: en.wikipedia.org...
UK: www.publicwhip.org.uk...

I have said enough abt this topic in this thread abt hypocrits

[edit on 8-7-2009 by yiersan]

Then why did you call them "crimes"?

China and Russia are both pretty large places. I'm not at all sure if they CAN be encircled. but that still wouldn't be illegal even if we could, unless we did it on their soil, would it?

[edit on 2009/7/8 by nenothtu]

reply to post by SLAYER69

Only throwing up some statistics do not change the fact or give these rioters to commit crimes.

And ironically at the start of your article it showcase another minority Hui Muslim who apparently owned a good business which was the target of Uyghurs. So this is just a simple example of that if someone wants to benefits from the unavoidable and necessary economic development, the people has to WORK for it and don;t only WHINE and lame the blame on others for not giving them a fair chance! The same problem is seen in Europe and USA, young low-educated Muslims blame the society and everything but not themselves for their own misery and injustices, while in reality anyone who do work hard for it can make it in today's China. This is because they do NOT integrate into the REALITY and the society.

Ps.
en.wikipedia.org...

In the 2nd century BC, Han China sent Zhang Qian as an envoy to the states in the region, beginning several decades of struggle between the Xiongnu and Han China over dominance of the region, eventually ending in Chinese success.

Pss. Ironically, up to today in Xinjiang the arabic language is still used.

[edit on 8-7-2009 by yiersan]

[edit on 8-7-2009 by yiersan]

China and Russia are both pretty large places. I'm not at all sure if they CAN be encircled. but that still wouldn't be illegal even if we could, unless we did it on their soil, would it?

[edit on 2009/7/8 by nenothtu]

It is being encircled.

Russia:
To her West - the NATO is expanding far into Eastern Europe.
To her South - invaded Afghanistan, Iraq, bribing puppet nations like Georgia/Turkey and Central Asia.
To her East - Having permanent stations in Japan/Korea. Incl your own bought state Alaska and the whole pacific mighty navy
To her North - The Arctic, with your own Allies.

China:
To our East - Same as Russian issues
To our South East - the key in the Pacific "Islands" keychain of encirclement Taiwan.
To our South - From Philippines to India
**Note** the Pacific island keychain is from Korea pensinula, Japan, taiwan, to Philippines, Malaysia etc.
To our West - kinda same as Russia's south.

Finishing off Iran will complete the circle - The question is more like when will it happen? rather then IF it will happen.
And next to this creating turmoil inside Russia and China are other tactics to be used.

And yes, just do it. This is also why Russia would simply chase away the CIA agents in Georgia and so when required to do. Not illegal either, innit?

[edit on 8-7-2009 by yiersan]

Strangely enough I'm actually siding with China on this one. Muslims are fairly recent inhabitants to the region, Chinese were there before them and I think Europeans were actually there before the ChineseTarim Mummies.

China is just trying to protect their sovereignty, Muslims tried to take over Europe over a thousand years ago and were nearly successful. In recent times they've launched a new campaign and have been fairly successful, especially in Europe. So China is setting a precedent on how we can deal with Muslims in our own countries.

They're also setting a precedent on how we can deal with the Chinese in the future. The Chinese like Muslims, are trying to takeover vast swathes of Western civilization. So in the future the West will have similar incidents except instead of Uighyrs it will be Chinese and instead of Chinese it will be Westerners.

reply to post by Cthulwho


China wants to homogenize the region.

The communist system and Islam are not compatible. Even though Beijing has made great strides away from the little red book carriers of 30 or so years ago. The two ideologies are at complete odds with one another. Islam believes in a single god and it's not the "Party" Beijing wants everybody to trust and rely on the "Party".


You have not and will not see those types of riots in the US. Religious freedoms etc. Sure individuals will come to blows over personal beliefs but not on a mass scale. China will continue to have massive issues with this ethnic group and there will be conflict in the future and it will get worse IMO.

For as ancient as China is they'll have to learn new tricks in the 21st century. The old school of one color fits all just wont work with certain groups. They may have hidden from the worlds cultural diversity in the past well this time it's happening from the inside out. These things tend to happen when you conquers your neighbors then ignore them and then try to cover them with a blanket ideology.

Not going to work.

Riots Expose China’s Ethnic Divisions Created by Uneven Growth

China’s drive to develop Xinjiang’s resources has spurred an influx of migrants and bred resentment among Uighurs, who complain of discrimination and political and cultural repression. Han Chinese now account for half the province’s 21 million population, from 7 percent in the 1953 census.

[edit on 8-7-2009 by SLAYER69]

Originally posted by yiersan

China and Russia are both pretty large places. I'm not at all sure if they CAN be encircled. but that still wouldn't be illegal even if we could, unless we did it on their soil, would it?

[edit on 2009/7/8 by nenothtu]

It is being encircled.

Russia:
To her West - the NATO is expanding far into Eastern Europe.
To her South - invaded Afghanistan, Iraq, bribing puppet nations like Georgia/Turkey and Central Asia.
To her East - Having permanent stations in Japan/Korea. Incl your own bought state Alaska and the whole pacific mighty navy
To her North - The Arctic, with your own Allies.

China:
To our East - Same as Russian issues
To our South East - the key in the Pacific "Islands" keychain of encirclement Taiwan.
To our South - From Philippines to India
**Note** the Pacific island keychain is from Korea pensinula, Japan, taiwan, to Philippines, Malaysia etc.
To our West - kinda same as Russia's south.

Finishing off Iran will complete the circle - The question is more like when will it happen? rather then IF it will happen.
And next to this creating turmoil inside Russia and China are other tactics to be used.

And yes, just do it. This is also why Russia would simply chase away the CIA agents in Georgia and so when required to do. Not illegal either, innit?

[edit on 8-7-2009 by yiersan]

If that's your idea of an "encirclement", you're welcome to it. Personally, if I were "encircled" like that, I'd call it a good day. The places you mention are as diverse as it gets. You apparently have no opponents with any common ground. I was under the impression that you were claiming the US was encircling China and Russia, and the evidence you present is not even of a "western" encirclement.

That evidence says you're encircled by the world.

Is that your view? It's China against the world?

Come on, part of Russia's "encirclement" is the Arctic? The same Arctic that Russia recently planted a flag at the bottom of to attempt to stake a claim?

Japan and (South) Korea are big enough to constitute an eastern "encirclement"?

You count Vietnam, Laos, Burma ('scuse me, it's "Myanmar" now) and Indonesia as part of a "western" encirclement? (those fall between the Phiilipines and India, and so are included in your enumeration)

I see gaps in your "encirclement" I could throw an entire continent through.

[edit on 2009/7/9 by nenothtu]

China says police killed 12 in Urumqi rioting

BEIJING — Chinese police killed 12 people during July 5 rioting in the western city of Urumqi, a senior official said — a rare acknowledgment by the government that security forces opened fire in the worst ethnic clashes to hit the region in decades.

The unrest began when a peaceful protest by Muslim ethnic minority Uighurs turned violent after it was stopped by police. The Uighurs went on a rampage, smashing windows, burning cars and beating Han Chinese, the nation's dominant ethnic group.

Two days after the first rioting, vigilante groups of ethnic Han took to the streets and attacked Uighurs.

China Says Unrest in Muslim Province Premeditated

URUMQI, China — The Chinese government has acknowledged for the first time that police killed 12 people during July 5 unrest in western China but put the blame squarely on rioters, saying they stockpiled weapons and planned synchronized attacks on targets across the city of Urumqi.

But an expert on the situation in Xinjiang province said such accusations should be treated with skepticism because they are Beijing's attempt to distract people from the real issues upsetting ethnic minority Muslim Uighurs in the region.

reply to post by yiersan


Are you serious when you say that the Muslim minorities in China are exempt from the one child policy? Do you mean they can have more than one kid and not be punished? Why is this? The Chinese government has been pretty brutal in crushing almost every other form of religious expression and religious culture, why are these Muslims special?


This is also dangerous, as it allows the Muslim populations to increase and overtake non-Muslim populations, since the rest of China is being forced to systematically decrease. I do not think that a Muslim majority would be particularly kind to non-Muslims.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf

Are you serious when you say that the Muslim minorities in China are ................ why are these Muslims special?

Hi there, a lot of exmeptions are made all over China, but with regards towards the "Ethnic minorities" these exempts are much clearer than for the Hans. This can be verified through official and unofficial sources.

A quick google.com search:
en.wikipedia.org...

Moreover, in accordance with PRC's affirmative action policies towards ethnic minorities, all non-Han ethnic groups are subjected to different rules and are usually allowed to have two children in urban areas, and three or four in rural areas. Han Chinese living in rural areas, also, are often permitted to have two children.[20] Because of couples such as these, as well as urban couples who simply pay a fine (or "social maintenance fee") to have more children,[21] the overall fertility rate of mainland China is, in fact, closer to two children per family than to one child per family (1.8). The steepest drop in fertility occurred in the 1970s before one child per family was implemented in 1979. This is due to the fact that population policies and campaigns have been ongoing in China since the 1950s. During the 1970s, a campaign of 'One is good, two is okay and three is too many' was heavily promoted.[citation needed]

Talking about brutality and oppression, are the Communists oppressing the Hans or the minorities in China? These favorable policies were established in the devastating Mao-era and with the sole purpose of consolidating Mao's power in China with winning "the hearts of minorities". One thing I know for sure it is simply unfair for the Hans to be treated differently simply because we are in the majority.
A reversal of this one/two-child policy (and other discriminating policies/laws) should be soon at place as an aging population will be causing more issues and risks than a growing one.

The muslim issue is a world issue, as the religion itself is intolerable towards any kinds of other beliefs and ruling for the way of living for anyone. It is a medieval and out-aged religion which holds back development and progress. The reason why the "Go West" policy caused these ethnic tensions, are more or less the restrictions and the slowness of adoptions and changing of their own way of living towards modern times. Income gaps are increased because of these restrictions to adjust themselves to new inevitable development.

And not because Hans get all "the best jobs", what is a "best job", we are still mainly being exploited by mainly foreign factories etc to keep the low prices abroad. Heck, who cares, it brings money in and give whoever want to work the opportunity to climb out of poverty, so at this stage it is still a win-win situation to cooperate with these foreign investors. So these Uygurs should not blame their own miseries on others, and look at the mirror why they are not employed and earning that few dollars dollars. Maybe China is the victim of our own success in development.

These social issues with Muslims in general being on the lower-income group of the populace can be observed in Europe and America too. Is it the faults of an oppressive government who continues the favorable minority policies even after Mao's death? Or is it the Muslim's lack of tolerance and adjustments to new development? One thing is for sure, unlike in the Atlantic Western nations, in China we will NOT ADJUST ourselves to accommodate to these medieval religions and continue our strong beliefs and hard working of creating a wealthy nations in ALL corners of the country with more fairness and equality. So only 12 rioters were killed by police? Maybe they should have killed more to save more Hans in that riot! The vast majority of the victims are still the Hans and not those "peaceful" rioters.

[edit on 19-7-2009 by yiersan]

reply to post by yiersan


Very interesting. Thank you for sharing that information. I was unaware that the Chinese government had a similar policy of minority appeasement...they should know that such things work well for no one.

Islam is an extremely intolerant religion. The only way to adapt Muslims to western living is to pull the teeth out of their religion and break them of the stone age mentality that infects them. It was a similar thing with Christianity in the west. It once dominated and kept people in superstitious limbo. It was only after wars, conflicts, and the power of scientific and humanistic reason rising, that we were able to shake off the shackles of backward looking religion. The same must happen with Islam if it is going to be compatible with a forward thinking, free, and evolving society.

Your government is being incredibly foolish allowing double sets of standards for minority groups. It creates inequality and instability.

I do hope the Chinese resist this sort of nonsense, and do not allow yourselves to be intimidated and bullied by an Islamic minority. It has unfortunately happened in the west, and has only brought more problems, tensions, and strife. There are many issues and problems with the Chinese government without it, and your resources would be better spent elsewhere on more important things to improve life and the social system in the country.

And I know all about the foreign investors sending their manufacturing over to China. It benefits no one. I've lost a job because factory operations were being sent to China, where the labor was a fraction of minimum wage in the US was. So someone in China is now doing my old job, but is that person doing any better for it? Unlikely, because the wages that person are getting paid probably are not enough to live decently on. The only people who benefit are the wealthy corporations.

Originally posted by Skadi_the_Evil_Elf
reply to post by yiersan

 

Very interesting. Thank you for sharing that information. I was unaware that the Chinese government had a similar policy of minority appeasement...or no one.

As I mentioned, this minority appeasement goes back to the roots in the outdated Mao-era, and nowadays mainly continued by showing to the international community "how human China is blablabla", merely to show to a community full of double-standards and hypocrisy within herself is kinda BS imho. Besides, it seems like it does not work to improve the image anyhow, so why continue these kinds of policies?

Islam is an extremely intolerant religion. The only way to adapt Muslims to ............. It creates inequality and instability.

Religion itself is in theory good, but in reality just like cancer to humanity. I have not much more to add to your comments.

I do hope the Chinese resist this sort of nonsense, and do not allow ...... life and the social system in the country.

I don't think the Chinese society will just let these extremists overrun us, resist, even Hans went on street to "protest". More or less the issue nowadays in China is that our hands are somewhat tighted by being too sensitive of what the world community openly and publicly will say/comment etc etc etc. Muslim Uyguyrs versus CCP Government = World in general standing by "those peaceful harmless oppressed" minority, "who was merely forced to kill over an 100 innocent Hans civilians". Regardless of what the actual facts will be the Muslim world community is biased (even a country like Turkey who face her on internal issues with the Kurdish PPK dares to speak up), and most influential towards Chinese policies are those criticism from the Western countries. Maybe it is the bad track record of the CCP, so we have to gradually be more transparant and open to let anyone see what is really going on, so even facts are twisted enough evidence are clearly to be shown who were the trouble-makers.

And I know all about the foreign investors sending their manufacturing over to China. It benefits no one. I've lost a job because factory operations were being sent to China, where the labor was a fraction of minimum wage in the US was. So someone in China is now doing my old job, but is that person doing any better for it? Unlikely, because the wages that person are getting paid probably are not enough to live decently on. The only people who benefit are the wealthy corporations.

Regardless of what Westerners are made to believe by their unions and protectionists. The same work for a nominal much lower monetary value do not equal to lower purchasing power parity in lower income countrues. Unfortunately the world income distribution is way too skewed, that's why a worker in China working for nominally only 1/10-1/6 of the American/European salary do can use that salary to maintain a whole household, this is why there are still millions from the rural areas in line looking for a job, simply because the vast majority of the populace is still living in poverty who does not work in the factories or in urban developed zones. What we do need to work on together worldwide is how to limit the EXCESSIVE SURPLUS (aka Profit) of these Multinationals and move the income/monetary wealth from those top 10% who holds 90% of the world wealth towards the rest of the 90% of the world population. These corporations are the ones causing most of the inequalities, corruptions, market manipulations and oppression of opportunities, the world is totally infested and being destroyed by their ongoing hunger for more money and power. (Ps. This does not mean there should be no free market mechanisms in the economies.)




[edit on 20-7-2009 by yiersan]

Originally posted by Bachfin

Originally posted by Arbitrageur

Originally posted by Vitchilo

Chinese authorities say the Xinjiang separatists are terrorists with links to al-Qaeda and receive support from outside the country.

So the CIA is trying to create chaos in China... interesting.

Did you read somewhere else that the CIA played a role, or does that just seem like a logical assumption?

I thought it was just common knowledge that the CIA is al-Qaeda? even the CIA say so.

CIA is Al-Qaeda...

Even if the US at one point was, Pinnochio long since found a taste for power and broken away.

Which should be obvious, even if you are American-Government-Hating and paranoid.

china has had a muslim population for hundreds of years. Muslims even have their own little walled parts of some cities in the north (sorta like muslim town as opposed to china town) These muslims have been fairly peaceful. even invented a form of kung fu (CHa ChangQuan-cha long fist)that the chinese govt. has accepted and incorporated into their official wushu syllabus. a lot of the jet li stuff you see in the movies has a lot of muslim kung fu moves.

One city in central china has a whole area separated for the muslims. walls and everything around it. inside the walls it's allah land all the way.

But china doesn't take crap from their citizens. I predict that they will be a little more efficient at stopping muslim insurections of their town. We the west might think their method is a little harsh but I bet you it will work.

But china has repressed some cultures. the hakka in canton area are an example. The Han population bullies them something terrible.