Obama: My Plan Makes Electricity Rates Skyrocket (cap and trade)

Originally posted by proximo

A combination of wind, solar, geothermal and tidal can absolutely meet our power needs.

That may be true or it might not, but the environmental politicians will block any construction of such facilities in the first place.

Remember the guys that complained because wind farms will block the view?

Remember the people that complain that solar plants will harm "pristine" desert lands?

I can assure there will be screaming if any tidal facility is proposed.

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
reply to post by proximo

 

OK. We have electric cars. What makes electricity to charge those cars?
I'll tell you Coal, natural gas, Nuclear generators. Tax those to death like Cap and Trade will and your now cheep electric car costs twice as much as a internal combustion engine would. This is a vicious circular ponzie scheme that only makes more trouble than its worth for less than a tenth of a degree in 35 years of warming. It makes NO sense and those green jobs are already being outsourced to India and the Pacific Rim so it's just another lie!

Make no mistake, I am in no way in favor of cap and trade, I think it is a horrible, awful, economy crushing idea. All I am arguing is alternative forms of energy are quickly becoming practical.

My whole point is, the market is very much moving towards these forms of energy now, without the need for government intervention. They are quickly begining to make economic sense, government involvement is only likely to slow progress ,promote the wrong technologies or raise costs due to unnecessary regulations.

reply to post by proximo


On those points I totally agree. Anything the government engages in ends in a cluster F**k! It is not even legal for our government to delve into the process. No where in the Constitution does it give the Fed the right to do what they are doing!

Zindo

reply to post by proximo

With sensible energy conservation and insulation and south facing windows, its possible to lower your daily use of energy by about a factor of 2. In this case, if solar shingles become 20% efficient, then they can provide 50-75 % of your energy needs

That is from the link I posted earlier. It is all theoretical. So who has the money to tear down their house and rebuild it? Then even if you are able to maximize it at most you get 75% power generation.

It just isn't feasible. Nanotechnology is still a long ways off. Yes they are working on it, but it takes years and years to get a product to market, then you have the cost factor of it all.

Tidal generation is way expensive. Like I said the only viable energy alternative is nuclear power, the rest of it is a long way off.

Storage technology is even a longer way off. Yes they are working on better technology right now, but these things take time to scale up because not everything is as easy as inventing something then making it bigger.

Again with the plug-in hybrids. Engines that get 100mpg to the gallon are not that common. Sure electric motors might be 90% efficient, but you still have to have the power to be able to charge it. Solar panels aren't going to do it, niether is wind. Then how are they going to get the power to the middle of the country with tidal generation.

Then you have to factor in the cost of how much it cost you in electricity to charge up your vehicle vs the cost of the car. I can tell you right now most people can't afford a 40,000 dollar car. Hybrids run anywhere between 25,000 and can go on up to 80 thousand dollars. Unless that price is in your budget it isn't worth getting a hybrid.

Then even with the bigger plug-ins there is only so much utility you can get out of them. If you have a camper that you would like to tow, the hybrid doesn't have enough power to do it. Then you have the maintenance cost factor of it all.

Solar, wind, tidal, is not feasible, it is only good for supplemental energy. Solar isn't developed enough, and even when it is the land area it will take makes it unfeasible. Wind same thing with Solar. Tidal is way expensive then you have the problem of getting the power hundreds of miles inland.

Then the thing about those technologies is that they are limited to how much energy the sun puts out and how much wind is being blown. You can't create more Sun, and you can't create more wind. Tidal would be good for coastal area's but you can't make the tide go in any faster to slower.

Nuclear is the only way to go. The technology is still years off before having a viable storage solution. They have been working on super capacitors for decades, they are just now starting to make headway.

There is more to it, than just producing something, there are a lot of other factors into it. We are decades off from plug-in hybrids from being produced enough to even be considered affordable for the average family, and also capable of what the diesel and gas motors are capable of.

This is the only presently available Electric I would consider: They are beautiful!

Tesla Motors

Zindo

reply to post by daddyroo45


Ahhhhh, they are watching CNN which is controlled by liberals and none of this stuff is reported.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


Agree. People should not be forced into "going green" by Presidential coup; if the programs had real merit, the people would rush to acquire it.

I have just ordered round 3 of solar stuff for us. IF one maintains it constantly, AND a person is very frugal AND is able to keep the PV panels safe in hurricanes (or whatever your local disaster is), then you can hope to break even.

Solar hot water heating is a no-brainer, and pays for itself quickly. I have two homemade solar collectors -- one for house water and another for a hot tub.

We're getting more solar stuff because we both think that some power is better than none, and at our current cost of power (nearly double that of the U.S.), we simply won't be able to afford power very soon. Barely can afford fuel now.

Our strategy? To be able to cool one small room in times of high heat, and to be able to make ice. That's it. For that, we're spending another $USD 10K. If SHTF doesn't happen, then we'll break even, or perhaps save a little.

Wind power not much good here, although I'm working on a homemade turbine that surely can't hurt. Biggest problem with both (for me) is batteries that will continue to take a charge for years. I have to be very careful with our current set-up to not discharge the batteries very much. We run many of our peripheral stuff off the current 400W set-up.

10 years from now with no new batteries? Just so much expensive glass and silicon.

It's all a very sticky problem, but slamming the taxpayers in the pocketbook CAN NOT IS NOT a viable solution. Pandering to the international C&T mindset doesn't do anything for the people who elected President Obama. My opinion.

Get close with your family and friends......enjoy the relationships and simple things in life........the sun is setting on the american economy and way of life........and freedom's.......

or say all is fine with the USA...This may allow you to progressively ignore all the little changes until one day you look back at 5 years ago and say man things were so different....

it's not pretty

Originally posted by cpdaman
or say all is fine with the USA...This may allow you to progressively ignore all the little changes until one day you look back at 5 years ago and say man things were so different....

it's not pretty

I see a day, not very far off already (if this passes) where many of us will be looking back at the $4.50 we paid per gallon for gas and thinking, "damn, it seems so cheap now that we are paying TWICE that much!".. and.. "Oh yeah, got my electric bill today, you get yours?" "Yeah, mine was $400 more than the same month last year, how about yours?" "cant pay it anyway, lost my job and there ain't none to be had" "What are we gonna do now?" "I dunno, I think we're suppose to die er' something" "Tried to see the doc and they gave me some pills and sent me home, ya know that health care reform stuff" "really?" "Yeah, you can't even see the doc no more" "Damn man, and we voted for them suckas?"

What is next? Carbon detectors in our home to see how much we breath and get a bill?

WE are being robbed. Plain and simple. We have been getting robbed left and right. When are we going to do something?

We used to be a free country. I hate it here now. I want to leave, but there is nowhere left that is free.

When do we stand up?

I think people just do not know how to organize, or people are too lazy , I do nit know.

We can not sustain this anymore. Something has to give. My bet is soon we will be in a war, or we will have total failure. They collapse us, take our money and run off while we sink.

This time, in a war, we would be the BAD guys. I do not see this as a positive thing. Who do we go to war with? Who do we owe? China. No way we win there, but those who have all the money could care less if the USA continues, as they just move base.

I am so SICK of it. For real, down in the dirt, Sick of it.

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


If plug in hybrids/electric cars are really are so impractical and no one will buy them, why do you think nearly every manufacturer has plans to build them within the next 3 years?

Why do you think a company such as Mercedes has made the announcement they do not plan on building any cars fueled by fossil fuels by 2015? link
Mercedes has also recently made a 400+ million dollar investment in Tesla, the leader in fully electric vehicles.

Why does Volkswagon's CEO state "Future belongs to electric cars".

Why is the Volt GM's most anticipated new model in many years? Ok maybe that one isn't that big of an accomplishment.

Electric cars actually have in many ways superior performance, and in fact many electric race cars are now being built which are expected to become dominant. Lamborghini and Ferrari even recently announced they will build hybrids.

The biggest strength of the electric motor is its torque, so towing will really not be a problem but a benefit, again its just storing the extra energy needed for moving the additional weight.

Another thing maybe you don't realize, pure electric cars require far less maintenance, no oil or fluid changes, they have no transmission and the motors are incredibly reliable. This is one of the reasons the automakers have actually been against them, many dealerships often need service income to even make a profit.

That 90% plus efficiency is a big deal. The math is really pretty simple, in fact that difference alone makes the technology a good one to put further investment into. The great thing is, the weight of an electric has the potential to be much less than a gas vehicle ever will be with higher energy density storage.

Yes it's true even a car like the GM Volt will cost 40 grand initially, but if you figure in the possible fuel savings over the lifetime with say $4 a gallon gas it really can be pretty close to being in line with any other sedan if driven enough. This is another early adoption area, small electric delivery vehicles will be able to pay for themselves.

Look I understand why you don't think they make any sense now, and for you maybe they don't. But here is the thing, all these 'greenies' are willing to spend a bunch extra to buy one. This is not a bad thing, it is good for everyone, their purchases although perhaps not now economically intelligent will go a long way towards driving the costs down. Really I mean name one new technology that when it came out was economically practical for everyone, that is just too much to expect. The wealthy will be the early adopters as they always are, and prices will drop as they always do.

reply to post by proximo


The reason they are going to make electric and hybrid cars is because the government is going to mandate that they do, or else they won't be able to sell their cars.

I'm not saying that it is a bad place to go, but we are entering a depression, very few people are going to be able to afford these cars. That is what I'm trying to get at.

Of course the future belongs to electric cars. But we have to update our entire power grid to support plug in hybrids, solar and wind energy isn't going to cut it.

I know how reliable they are, I used to sell them. And speaking of which, to get the fuel savings out of a hybrid it takes 8 to 10 years to even break even.

This is what you aren't getting. Look at Tesla Motors, the cheapest car they have is 50 grand(usd). With energy prices sky rocketing how much is a kw of power going to cost? The other problem is the batteries. Sure they work great at first, but the batteries are going to eventually develop a memory and you aren't going to get the miles that you use too, and battery technology is still a long ways off.

Look I understand where you are coming from and I know it is the future, in fact I look forward to seeing kids suped up electric cars and see what they can push them to do. But what you are failing to understand is that it is going to take decades before they get the point where they are going to be practical.

Unless somebody comes up with a better power generation method that can be sized to power your home and car. Which very well could happen, but at the current status quo, this electric cars are going to be abundant and affordable in any real amount of time is ridiculous, barring some huge leap in power generation.

In the mean time Solar and wind energy making up most of the power generation in the country isn't going to cut it, you'll be having to make the choice of either powering your refrigerator or charging your car. Then I wouldn't even be surprised if the government made it to where you have to go to a charge station to charge your car because charging your car at home could be dangerous and blow up the whole neighborhood. Then how much is the charge station going to charge you per Kw.

I know where the future is going, but unless we have a power grid that can handle 10's of millions of electric cars it is the worse possible idea. The technology is still going to move in that direction though, but there are way more factors than just building solar and wind farms and producing electric vehicles.

Obama is a horrible, horrible, man!

It's called economic social engineering, they're making it expensive to be free to do and buy what we want.

Just try and get a price of replacing the batteries on a Prius or Toyota from the dealer. They hem and hah and give approximations but you will most likely not get a correct answer! I've been told that its 3/4 of the price of the car for the time and prts for replacement!
Zindo

reply to post by ZindoDoone


Yea, the battery pack is 8,000 dollars, that is just the batteries. I don't even know what the labor would be on it. They have to drop the chassey because the batteries are underneath the "trunk".

Although in the almost 10 years that they have been out only one has needed the battery replaced, and that was under warranty. Either way though they really aren't that comfortable of a ride.

They also have the Hybrid Highlanders and the gas millage is not that much better. In the bigger vehicles its maybe 1 or two mpg better. Also if you drive at highway speeds you get worse gas mileage. Same with the Camery's, you get highway mpg in the city but worse mpg on the highway.

Then the thing with the Hybrids is that your max towing capacity is 5,000 pounds. There is still a long way to go before they are practical, for all kinds of uses.

The garbage and emotional ranting I see on this site now is just getting unbelieveable. do your homework first people. Now wonder all the educated contributers left.

reply to post by nixie_nox


So what are you trying to say?

I've read some of this bill and I can tell you right now it puts government in total control of our lives.

If you would be so kind to expound on what you are trying to get at.