Obama: My Plan Makes Electricity Rates Skyrocket (cap and trade)

Originally posted by daddyroo45

I would never say people don't contribute,I just believe it is an inflated scare tactic,to say that man is the greatest cause,

Well, that's a good point.

Personally, as someone who considers himself environmentally conscious, I have become disgusted with the abuse of Climate Change in order to push things such as this very bill. Al Gore is traveling around spreading 'climate change awareness', all the while creating an enormous ecological footprint just so he can get rich. Emissions trading and carbon credit scams do absolutely nothing to help clean up the environment, they just funnel money from corporations to the government.

In addition, the Cap and Trade will effectively act as a tax on the working class, which is something Obama said he would avoid during his sham of a campaign. Factories and power plants will still give out the same amount of emissions, they will be taxed by the government, and they will in turn pass those expenses on to the consumer. The environment will still be just as polluted next year as it was last year (most likely more so). The only thing this will accomplish is to fund the government's ridiculous spending programs.

It is the fall of an empire. As US is no longer able to secure the energy resources around the planet, we can expect this country to pay average global prices for the used energy..
In Europe we talk about 6-7 $ / gallon on petrol, and about 0.20 us$ per KW of electricity.

Maybe this is the best time to actually invest in alternative energies as your investment will be safe. Wind is the most efficient of recovering your investment - so lucky you if you live along the seafront

reply to post by David9176


Great post OP.

I tried talking to a few people I know about this bill, and the general attitude I get is well...I can't stop it. Oh well! Oh well? OH WELL!?

The country has been castrated. It's full of sports addicts and cry baby talk shows. Americans deserve everything they get.

reply to post by proximo


How about people that want to see there family that lives the entire country away? A car that can only get 30 miles to the charge is outrageously expensive just to drive to work in.

Battery technology is making improvements, but we are still a long long way off. Then you also have the problem of disposing of the toxic batteries they use for the electric cars.

Then you also have to build an entire infrastructure to support electric and hydrogen vehicles. Right now it takes a few hours to charge up an electric car, and not only that but it takes a few hours to fill a hydrogen tank.

Then we also need a power grid that is able to support a few million electric cars. Solar and Wind isn't going to cut it. In fact solar and wind is good for supplemental energy production, but not main energy production.

Gas and diesel powered cars are not going anywhere for at least 20 years. Then it will only start being phased out. Changing the entire power infrastructure and the way we travel is not something that happens overnight. It is a long process.

Just like with the car, it became available to buy in the early 1900's it wasn't until decades later that it became affordable for everybody.

Obama is actually dealing with reality and some people do not like that one bit. He is telling you honestly where there will be changes, what they must be and that change has a price.

It is very comforting to be lied to all the time, to have politicians ignore your most urgent needs and just go do what they feel like for the benefit of their own personal mark on history. Would you really rather have Bush and that crowd back ignoring energy completely, until the day comes when it all just grinds to a halt.


Energy costs will skyrocket. This is a fact. You could choose to burn coal and not deal with the rivers of toxic waste, then you can explain to your grandchildren why they have birth defects, and die young.

Some people's homes have been washed away in rivers of toxic ash this year. There are no easy inexpensive major power sources which can simply be rolled out overnight.

Washington has been having a party for a very long time. The check just arrived and we will all be sobering up for generations to come. Get used to it, the party is over.

reply to post by Cyberbian




I have to get me some of that kool-aid, that stuff must be the best ever.

Yea right, Obama is doing nothing but lying. He won't even authorize Nuclear power plants to be built, but Iran and ever other country can have them.

This bill does absolutely NOTHING to solve the energy "crisis". This bill is nothing but the communist takeover of America. Just look at all the countries that have already tried everything in this bill.

Spain - costs them 2 jobs for every 1 "green" job created, as a result they have 18+% unemployment.

Germany - Higher rate of CO2 than before the Cap and Trade.

Australia - Same thing.

What do these three countries all have in common, they are working very hard to repeal all the "green" legislation because it is hurting them.

Besides all this is going to do is consolidate power and profits to the insiders. Al Gore will be a Billionaire if this bill passes, GE will dominated the green market because they can afford carbon credits and then sell what they don't use.

The only source of sustainable alternative energy is Nuclear Power.

reply to post by proximo


OK. We have electric cars. What makes electricity to charge those cars?
I'll tell you Coal, natural gas, Nuclear generators. Tax those to death like Cap and Trade will and your now cheep electric car costs twice as much as a internal combustion engine would. This is a vicious circular ponzie scheme that only makes more trouble than its worth for less than a tenth of a degree in 35 years of warming. It makes NO sense and those green jobs are already being outsourced to India and the Pacific Rim so it's just another lie!

reply to post by Hastobemoretolife


What flavor Koolaid are you drinking?

I don't love any politician, and I have questions about Obama.
But like it or not he is what we have for a president.

I abhore Bush and Cheney. They are the ones who put this country where it is today. Do you remember the last eight years?

Sober up, like I said, the party is over. Especially your political one.

reply to post by Cyberbian


Excuse me but didn't the Democrats control Congress and the Senate for 5 of those 8 years and pass the legislation that caused the melt down? They sure didn't fight any bill that would have stopped it did they?

Zindo

reply to post by Cyberbian


Dude, both parties are responsible for it. If you think Bush did the amount of damage he did in 8 years you are delusional.

This has been decades in the making. The democrats are directly and implicitly responsible as the republicans. They wanted all what has happened to happen so they can come in under the guise of wanting to "fix" things and take over the country and make us all slaves.

It's time for you to wake up and smell the roses. There is no energy crisis. It is all a farce to pack the insiders pockets with cash, at the expense of our freedom.

In 10 years the entire US power grid could be run off of nuclear power, oil isn't going anywhere, we have plenty of it right here in America, but the eco-nazi's don't want to drill for it.

This energy bill is nothing but a ruse. It's a power grab to put us all into serfdom.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife

How about people that want to see there family that lives the entire country away? A car that can only get 30 miles to the charge is outrageously expensive just to drive to work in.

Battery technology is making improvements, but we are still a long long way off. Then you also have the problem of disposing of the toxic batteries they use for the electric cars.

Then you also have to build an entire infrastructure to support electric and hydrogen vehicles. Right now it takes a few hours to charge up an electric car, and not only that but it takes a few hours to fill a hydrogen tank.

Then we also need a power grid that is able to support a few million electric cars. Solar and Wind isn't going to cut it. In fact solar and wind is good for supplemental energy production, but not main energy production.

Gas and diesel powered cars are not going anywhere for at least 20 years. Then it will only start being phased out. Changing the entire power infrastructure and the way we travel is not something that happens overnight. It is a long process.

Just like with the car, it became available to buy in the early 1900's it wasn't until decades later that it became affordable for everybody.

First off I was talking about plug in hybrids with the 30 mile range - that means they run off electric for up to 30 miles then can be run off a gas engine or generator from then on - their range is identical to any gas car. The advantage is you can use cheap fuel - electricity which costs less than a tenth of gasoline at today's rates for that first 30 miles.

Yes they take hours to charge, but it is completely practical to plug them in at night in your garage and they will fully charged for the next day, and if you forget or don't have time, you can still drive using the gas.

Sure it would be nice to build a great quick charging infrastructure but the truth is we already have an infrastructure. Think about it like this - every home already has the equivalent of a 28,800 baud (110v outlet) or 56,600(220v outlet) modem. Is cable or fiber optic much better sure - but people still surfed the internet with dialup until a better connection became available.

Yes batteries are toxic, but compared to the emissions put out by oil it is still overall far better for the environment, and electricity can be produced very clean through wind/solar/geo/nuclear which are all at this point somewhat price competitive, and in the case of wind and solar improving in cost per watt of production very quickly.

I completely disagree with you when you say solar and wind will not cut it, I just don't think you are very well informed. Do you know that right now there are plans to produce a solar plant so large in North Africa that 15% of Europe's power will come from it? Solar panels are getting much cheaper very quickly, look up Nanosolar, or First Solar for examples of companies that are today already making solar energy very cost competitive. The same is true for wind, several European countries have the goal of producing more than 10% of their power from wind, and the efficiency improvement in just the last 5 years has nearly doubled for wind turbines as they have increased in size. Nuclear is the obvious quick fix, you can produce a ton of power by building a few plants.

The only thing that is holding back a total electrical power system is energy storage, without a doubt it is the bottleneck. That is why as I said there are literally billions of dollars working on fixing it, and if you watch it closely as I do breakthroughs are happening all the time.

Yes it will take years to completely phase out gas/diesel I never said it wouldn't. Nearly every major car manufacturer will have a plug in hybrid/fully electric model available by 2012, most starting with models at the end of 2010. I am not guessing at this they have already made the announcements.

[edit on 28-6-2009 by proximo]

The #ty part about this whole thing is that it's just more corporate favoritism. When has the government restricted a privatized industry and it not fallen back on the common man? Never.

Look at the oil industry. They're allowed to raise the price anytime they'd like on any sort of whim and the government doesn't regulate them from doing so, instead they make us swallow $4.84 gas while months later it plummets and was there any action taken against them and their record breaking profits? No.

Now Cap and Trade...

They're not forcing the corporations to change, they're forcing us to pay higher prices because they never regulate the industry, but only the amount of money we have to fork over.

How is this for the people? How could it remotely be described as a viable solution to industrial pollution?

The energy industry has created this problem. Not the people. It's not like we have a choice but to pay on a system that was built for us to pay and to use without question. A lot of people right now are making the change and taking money out of their pocket to help protect the environment via residential wind turbines, solar, and thermal energy systems that cost a small fortune.

If you regulate an industry and do not regulate it's price hikes, you give a reason to the polluters to ask for higher premiums without necessarily evolving into a cleaner more sustainable energy, as they just compensate what would be losses by higher premiums. That doesn't create "change" that enables... which always, ALWAYS falls on the backs of your average, everyday American.

# Obama. # Pelosi. # American politics.

reply to post by Cyberbian


Higher premiums for the average American aren't going to make that coal burn any cleaner.

Regulate emissions and block energy tax hikes. Only then will you see "CHANGE" instead of another mass rape over of American citizens.

reply to post by proximo


Solar power in the desert, very rarely are there clouds. If the wind doesn't blow then they don't produce electricity. Then there is also the environmental impact of it all.

The size of a wind farm it would take to power a city the size of San Fransisco is almost equal to the size of the city it self, its the same with solar. Then as I stated earlier, if the wind doesn't blow there is no energy, if the sun doesn't shine there is no energy.

Even theoretically the sun only gives off a certain amount of energy per sq. meter. Here is a link to check out, Basically on a good day you can only get 4.8 kilowatts per square meter, which is equal to 0.13 gallons of gas. That is being able to harness 100 percent of the suns energy. Appliances use thousands of kilowatts of electricity a year.

The math doesn't add up. Solar and wind are only good for supplemental use. Anybody telling you different is lying to you. Then about the plug in hybrids.

Lets say I have a family of 4 and we want to take a cross country trip. The car I have will not be big enough to carry all of us and our luggage. I mean don't get me wrong we need to find something different, but there is nothing there that is viable, at this moment in time.

Originally posted by ZindoDoone
reply to post by proximo

 

OK. We have electric cars. What makes electricity to charge those cars?
I'll tell you Coal, natural gas, Nuclear generators. Tax those to death like Cap and Trade will and your now cheep electric car costs twice as much as a internal combustion engine would. This is a vicious circular ponzie scheme that only makes more trouble than its worth for less than a tenth of a degree in 35 years of warming. It makes NO sense and those green jobs are already being outsourced to India and the Pacific Rim so it's just another lie!

LOL.... Also many forget our "power grid" is maxed out. Many parts of the country have brown-outs when it gets hot due to increased use of electricity for cooling.... now imagine plugging a few million junk cars in.

We have a solution... It is called Algae oil and we can farm the sh it out of it.

Is it just me or does it seem that the house and senate are Obi's own personal green stamp.No one opposes him.

reply to post by drwizardphd

Our automobiles only give off CO2, they don't absorb any at all. So I'm afraid your logic is slightly flawed there. Also, it is important to consider that other greenhouse gasses, such as methane, and other pollutants are also released into the atmosphere as a result of combustion engines.

Well guess what else gives off CO2! PEOPLE!!!! Next, "Obama the great"
will be hitting us with a HUGE tax increase to freakin BREATHE!! and that "TROLL MINION"of his "Peloser" will find a way to get it through! I know, he can write it into his Universal Health Care Plan!!

He cares nothing about you, me, the economy, the U.S., the climate, the country or the planet for that matter. The only thing this NARCISSISTIC INCOMPETENT cares about is Power, Power and more Power!


[edit on 29-6-2009 by paxnatus]

Originally posted by paxnatus
reply to post by drwizardphd

 

Our automobiles only give off CO2, they don't absorb any at all. So I'm afraid your logic is slightly flawed there. Also, it is important to consider that other greenhouse gasses, such as methane, and other pollutants are also released into the atmosphere as a result of combustion engines.

Well guess what else gives off CO2! PEOPLE!!!! Next, "Obama the great"
will be hitting us with a HUGE tax increase to freakin BREATHE!! and that "TROLL MINION"of his "Peloser" will find a way to get it through! I know, he can write it into his Universal Health Care Plan!!

He cares nothing about you, me, the economy, the U.S., the climate, the country or the planet for that matter. The only thing this NARCISSISTIC INCOMPETENT cares about is Power, Power and more Power!

[edit on 29-6-2009 by paxnatus]

The scary thing is you might be right.

Not only will they tax you when you exhale carbon but they will charge a fee for inhaling oxygen.

As for all this wind farm and solar farm crap, it really doesn't matter how much energy they will be able to give. What matters is that the same "global warming" freak politicians that proposed this bill will be the very ones blocking any wind or solar farm being built in order to protect some spotted fly. Then of course the electric transmission will be blocked because the transmission lines might provide perching spots for birds to be able to easily kill some spotted rat.

There is a very good reason why the electric grid is in decay, it is because the green freaks block any improvements when improving the grid would probably save a crapload of energy due to increased efficiency.

The bill was pushed to block everything and increase costs. The politicians know very well that there will be no new green energy facilities that will be built. At the same time they will be requiring more green facilities and requiring us to use more green energy. Imagine that, requiring us to use something that isn't there and taxing us to hell for not being able follow.

Originally posted by Hastobemoretolife
reply to post by proximo

 

Solar power in the desert, very rarely are there clouds. If the wind doesn't blow then they don't produce electricity. Then there is also the environmental impact of it all.

The size of a wind farm it would take to power a city the size of San Fransisco is almost equal to the size of the city it self, its the same with solar. Then as I stated earlier, if the wind doesn't blow there is no energy, if the sun doesn't shine there is no energy.

Even theoretically the sun only gives off a certain amount of energy per sq. meter. Here is a link to check out, Basically on a good day you can only get 4.8 kilowatts per square meter, which is equal to 0.13 gallons of gas. That is being able to harness 100 percent of the suns energy. Appliances use thousands of kilowatts of electricity a year.

The math doesn't add up. Solar and wind are only good for supplemental use. Anybody telling you different is lying to you. Then about the plug in hybrids.

Lets say I have a family of 4 and we want to take a cross country trip. The car I have will not be big enough to carry all of us and our luggage. I mean don't get me wrong we need to find something different, but there is nothing there that is viable, at this moment in time.

Well I never said we should or could get all power from solar, but I will say this, using your link it even says with 20% efficiency we could meet up to 75% of our power needs. I have no doubt solar panels much greater than that efficiency (30,40 even 50+ likely) will exist with 10-15 years all it takes is mastery of the nanoscale which is coming, there are many such technologies in development now.

It also brings up the .13 gallon of energy per square meter for 8 hours of exposure. You do realize there are electric cars that get the equivalent of 100 miles to gallon now right? Electric engines are over 90% efficient, whereas gas are under 40% efficient.

A combination of wind, solar, geothermal and tidal can absolutely meet our power needs. Even if that is not enough nuclear is a much better option then using fossil fuels/coal. Again you bring up the energy storage issue in your comments about the sun doesn't always shine the wind doesn't always blow- yes that is still somewhat of a problem not because it can't already be stored but that it costs more than is desirable to store it currently. The costs for storage will drop and they are already workable, that is why there is dozens of huge solar plants and wind farms being built NOW. The amout of wind installed doubled from 2007 to 2008, it is very practical now.

I don't know why you seem to think a plug in hybrid has to be a mini or something, they don't. The Chevy volt, plug in camry, plug in escape suv, Tesla model S, etc. all will be more than capable of comfortably being able to seat 4 and luggage for a trip. Any vehicle can be a hybrid but obviously weight is a huge factor in how efficient it is. Weight can be cut dramatically from our current car designs. There are engineers that have built vehicles with less than half the weight with same size and crash protection using alt methods already. The biggest weight savings will again be the batteries, they are by far the heaviest thing in an electric again it is all about energy density.

Electric cars are not perfect, and are still costly but like anything, once in heavy production the costs will drop dramatically.

Originally posted by Cyberbian
reply to post by Hastobemoretolife

 

I abhore Bush and Cheney. They are the ones who put this country where it is today. Do you remember the last eight years?

Wow this is always the counter argument to anything in opposition to Obama or global warming.

Obama says energy costs will increase which anyone with half a brain can see this hurts the hell out of the poor

The reply: blah blah Bush Cheney blah blah

Obama pushes policies that will create much higher taxes that anyone with half a brain can see will hurt the economy.

The reply: blah blah Bush Cheney blah blah

The temperature of the planet has not been warming on average sine 1998.

The reply: blah blah Bush Cheney blah blah

Al Gore and many democrats stand to make millions or even billions in the carbon credit derivatives market that will be created from this bill at the expense of the public paying increased energy costs.

The reply: blah blah Bush Cheney blah blah

If I had a dollar for every time I seen and heard a "Bush Cheney" counterargument to Obama.....

It is Obama that says energy costs will skyrocket. Is there anything that can justify Obama from wanting energy costs to rise, especially in a bad economy. Is making energy expensive a means to fix the Bush years?