Originally posted by teapot

Originally posted by dodadoom
You can always tell a TRUE christian by what day
of the week he/she observes the sabbath.
That cuts to the chase of what it really means,
and separates his true followers. Persecution anyone?
There are many pagan abberations of his truth,...
especially nowadays!

No, no, no!!!

You can tell who the True Christians are by the clear and obvious fact that they have love for one another! By Love, I do not refer to the mush that MSM, Hollywood and the sex industry portray, but rather Agape, as lived by Jesus.

Any idiot can go to church or just be lazy on Sunday et al and claim this is the proof he is of the True Church. True Christians openly declare, without embarrassment or shame that Jesus is Lord! Any day of the week.

God does not care what day of the week we favour! He does not care if we are late! He does not care what we wear! He cares about the content of our hearts and what actions we may take or refrain from. But He knows we are weak! He knows the condition of the human heart.

You are quite right in your assessment of the sabbath. For example, the New Testament gives us this:

Colossians 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. 2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

As a Christian, I am, as you said, known by my love for others. I am not known for being a mighty nation, a rich and/or powerful force, a persecutor of others regardless of their beliefs. I am known only for love. I am no one to criticize others for their faults, for Christ has forgiven me for mine and I live by His example to forgive others.

Those who rely on the sabbath for criticism are not fully aware of the loving sacrifice and righteousness of Jesus.

[edit on 28-6-2009 by Jim Scott]

I'm about sick of people saying Jesus this, you have to "accept Jesus" or all is lost for you. It's all a LIE.

#1. Jesus did not come for the righteous. He came to bring "sinners to repentance". Sin = mistake, repent = fix. He came to help people fix their mistakes.

#2. The myth that only by "Jesus" the idol can you come to the father. Here is the complete line.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Is it coincidence that he says I am the way, the truth and the life in the same sentence? No. What he is saying is that only by those things can one come to the father. It has nothing to do with the idol of Jesus.

More proof of this fact can be found later in the same chapter:

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

How can this be possible if it is the way Christians like to claim? Have they never heard of taking things in the correct context?.

Finally, Jesus even goes further to say that at worse, those who do not accept him will just be judged.

Fake "Christians" indeed. Mostly fueled by Paul and those who came after Jesus using his name, which he specifically warns of.

Furthermore, Jesus says if you do believe in him, then you will walk the path and do as he says, and that simply giving him lip service will not do any good.

And once again, proof of this can be found with what Jesus says to the rich man who comes to him. The rich man who believed he was who he said he was. Did Jesus tell that man to just believe he was the son of god and all would be ok? NO. He told that man to walk the path and give his riches to the poor. The rich man could believe he was the son of god, but he could not do that.

Am I supposed to believe Jesus was just messing with the rich man? Did they leave out the part where Jesus walks off laughing saying - what a fool, all he really has to do is believe in me and recieve his "free gift"?

I wish people would take a better look at what they imply when they say things. They imply many bad and false things about god when they say things like "only Christians and people who believe in Jesus can get into heaven".

Hi/

"stand fast and hold the traditions which you were taught, whether by word or our epistle" (2 Thessalonians 2:15).

What is this?
Why is

"We command you,
brethren,
in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,
that you withdraw from every brother who walks disorderly and not according to the tradition which he received from us" (2 Thessalonians 3:6).

Received from US?
Why is this important?


The Church followed Saint Paul's instruction to Timothy,
"the things that you have heard from me among many witnesses,
commit these to faithful men who will be able to teach others also" (2 Timothy 2:2).
The word tradition means,
literally,
“to hand down.”
Holy Tradition speaks of a careful passing on of correct belief and worship from generation to generation...NOT OWN interpretation of many ERRORS!
So who handed down the many Translations of the Bible?
?
MODERNISM IS NOT accepted!

The Early Fathers knew what they were talking... Saint Jerome wrote that "igno­rance of the Scriptures is ignorance of Christ."
Saint Athanasius called those who neglect the Scriptures "worthy of utmost condemnation."
And Saint John Chrysostom(Golden mouth) said that not knowing the Scriptures is "the cause of all evils."

I wonder now why the O.P says Jesus Christianity is not seen today?
How can it be seen when Each and every person makes up their OWN meaning of Scripture!

ICXC NIKA

helen

Originally posted by badmedia
I wish people would take a better look at what they imply when they say things. They imply many bad and false things about god when they say things like "only Christians and people who believe in Jesus can get into heaven".

You mean like the guy who rapes and murders 20 women and then finds Jesus can get into heaven while the guy who runs an orphanage and a homeless shelter to help the less fortunate and does nothing but good and kind deeds to his fellow man doesn't have a chance of getting into heaven if his beliefs are slightly different, but he generally believes in the same God?

Or like Oprah Winfrey said, what if some person in a remote corner of the world never even heard of Jesus, but lived a good and righteous life. Would that person still have a chance of getting into heaven? Oprah thought so but some Christians wanted to do some very un-Christian like things to her for saying that (burn her at the stake etc).

That's why I like the different perspective by JimScott in this thread, I think a lot of people could learn something by thinking outside of their own personal boxes, as he was able to think outside the box he was in for so long.

Originally posted by badmedia
I'm about sick of people saying Jesus this, you have to "accept Jesus" or all is lost for you. It's all a LIE.

Please don't dismay, as you will have the opportunity to tell Him it is all a lie face-to-face. At that point, He will put His arms around you, heal you, and teach you the truth. You don't really expect to get the full truth here, do you? I can appreciate your frustration in your search for the truth.

#1. Jesus did not come for the righteous. He came to bring "sinners to repentance". Sin = mistake, repent = fix. He came to help people fix their mistakes.

His efforts in this world are for a better life for you in this world. They have little to do with your redemption. Life here can be difficult or less difficult depending on the principles you follow. If you lie, cheat, steal, murder, fornicate, etc. expect to reap what you sow in this life. Someone will do so to you, as He says that if you cast your bread upon the waters, it will return to you again. He does not want you to suffer, so He gives you principles for right living; i.e., an instruction manual for happiness on this planet. If you follow it, you will likely have a happy life. There will be tests in life, which you may or may not pass. Those tests are to test your faith, to see if you love God or not. They do not affect your redemption, only your rewards in heaven. You will still go to heaven, as your debts are paid in full. After you die, you will be shown the truth. At that point, you will know clearly, and you will humbly fall to your knees because of the love of Jesus for you and His sacrifice on the cross only for you. It will come clear to you then. I wouldn't worry too much about it now. Just read the scriptures and pray for enlightenment.

#2. The myth that only by "Jesus" the idol can you come to the father. Here is the complete line.

Not sure what you mean by idol here. Jesus was crucified because He claimed to be the Son of God, which is making himself equal to God, which means He said He was God. I would say that He is the real thing, not an idol. There are numerous imitations of Him before and after His appearance on Earth. They were deceptions to throw you off track. There are 333 prophecies of Jesus in the OT, which, speaking in terms of statistical probability, shows that it would be impossible statistically that He was not the Christ.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Is it coincidence that he says I am the way, the truth and the life in the same sentence? No. What he is saying is that only by those things can one come to the father. It has nothing to do with the idol of Jesus.

More proof of this fact can be found later in the same chapter:

Often, people misunderstand the humility of Jesus (where He attributes things to His Father, such as words and actions) rather than taking the credit Himself. Jesus' sacrifice created a means for us to enter heaven. Our sins are paid for by His loving sacrifice for each of us on the cross. The action which He took created a bridge between Earth and heaven for us when He was lifted up and died. His loss of life, a sacrificial lamb of God, provided a way. He is the way, and He is the life. His message is true, because only a God could pay for infinite lives of eternal life by the sacrifice of "one" life.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

How can this be possible if it is the way Christians like to claim? Have they never heard of taking things in the correct context?.

Finally, Jesus even goes further to say that at worse, those who do not accept him will just be judged.

Jesus, like God, expects us to show our love for Him by doing what He says. This is like your earthly parent. You obey your parents because you love them, and maybe because of the threat of punishment.
Jesus taught us what He received from the Father. He created the heavens and the Earth because of what He received from the Father. The Father is the origin, Jesus the effecting agent, and the Holy Spirit is the ongoing sustaining.

Fake "Christians" indeed. Mostly fueled by Paul and those who came after Jesus using his name, which he specifically warns of.

Furthermore, Jesus says if you do believe in him, then you will walk the path and do as he says, and that simply giving him lip service will not do any good.

And once again, proof of this can be found with what Jesus says to the rich man who comes to him. The rich man who believed he was who he said he was. Did Jesus tell that man to just believe he was the son of god and all would be ok? NO. He told that man to walk the path and give his riches to the poor. The rich man could believe he was the son of god, but he could not do that.
Am I supposed to believe Jesus was just messing with the rich man? Did they leave out the part where Jesus walks off laughing saying - what a fool, all he really has to do is believe in me and recieve his "free gift"?

I guess you could say He was messing with the rich man. He messed with a lot of people, in a sense. His words were meant to show the impossibility of righteousness by man, and that the work of righteousness could only be done by God. As I mentioned earlier, the most righteous man (Job) couldn't do it, the most perfect man (Adam) couldn't do it. The strongest (Samson), the wisest (Solomon), the most godly (Elijah), most educated (Moses), etc. all couldn't do it. By now, these people like the rich man, have been taught all these examples. They ought to know they can't do it. Consider the teaching to Nicodemus, a member of the Sanhedrin, and how Jesus confused him:

[color=Yellow]1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said unto him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him. 3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9 Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?[/color]

I wish people would take a better look at what they imply when they say things. They imply many bad and false things about god when they say things like "only Christians and people who believe in Jesus can get into heaven".

Well, don't kill the messenger. There may just be some confusion for you in this teaching:

John 6:40 every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
That's after you find out after death the first time.

I would like to point out the verse I mentioned last in the above post:

John 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Unless you get a chance to see Jesus, you would not qualify, right? You will see Him after you die.

Would you come face-to-face with Him, understanding His love and sacrifice for you, see Him tell you about it and show you Him on the cross and the agony, and not believe Him?

Well, if you can see it for yourself, after death, in living color, with all the smells and sounds and feelings, and still not believe it, something is wrong with you. You would have been healed of any earthly problems, like child molestation, parental abuse, drugs and sex corruption, and a host of other bad effects on your mind. You would be perfectly well, mentally and physically, and fully instructed as if you never knew anything about Jesus at all. You would see His love for you. Do you believe that anyone would still deny Him at that point? Only Satan would, and that is why He said He saved all except the Son of Perdition.

Jesus said He must be lifted up so He may draw all men unto Him. That's you and I. See you there...

Originally posted by ghaleon12
The thing I thought was strange was "choosing to go to heaven", it makes absolutely no sense at all. There is no "heaven", only pleasure, and no one willingly chooses to be in pain. So given an option of Heaven (pleasure) everyone would take it, it would literally be impossible to refuse it. That's part of the reason the creator does things the way he does, to give us free will so we aren't controlled since all we are are pleasure seekers.

Ah but you seem to forget the masochists. Pleasure from pain. No doubt other, more twisted individuals would turn away from god, assuming all this were true. Some men would undoubtedly be unable to let go of their ego, even in the face of Jesus himself, and the truth. So yes, if all this were indeed true, then I think there would be people that would willingly choose to turn away, just as the devil himself supposedly did.

Chrono

Originally posted by randyvs
What Jesus Christ did at Calvary would take more than just a man.
it would take a God. Who else could do that?Who else would? I know of
noone. I conqur.He came that we may have life and have it more abundantly.



[edit on 19-6-2009 by randyvs]

Actually many of the Apostles died martyrs deaths including crucifixion, many today are tortured and killed for the faith. The point though is that Jesus was the Lamb of God who died as a covering for our sins. He is also God in the Flesh.