How we are Conditioned to act without Reason *Video* Must See*

appologies - but the entire premise of the vid is UTTER TWADDLE - it claims ` conditioning to act without reason ` - that is wholey falacious

anyone who wants to pretend that acting in self preservation to avoid being soaked is ` acting without reason ` then decorum be dammed - you are an idiot

and further - the vid dishonestly ignores reall trends in animal behaviour

the firstr is - once the climber is soaked to the skin - it is already wet and further soaking isnt going to make its condition any worse 0- but the banana will improve it - ergo it gets the banana anyway

Here is another video which describes the potential consequences of human activity --- whoa !


thefutureofourworld.ytmnd.com...

Originally posted by ignorant_ape
appologies - but the entire premise of the vid is UTTER TWADDLE - it claims ` conditioning to act without reason ` - that is wholey falacious

anyone who wants to pretend that acting in self preservation to avoid being soaked is ` acting without reason ` then decorum be dammed - you are an idiot

and further - the vid dishonestly ignores reall trends in animal behaviour

the firstr is - once the climber is soaked to the skin - it is already wet and further soaking isnt going to make its condition any worse 0- but the banana will improve it - ergo it gets the banana anyway

Except its an analogy of human interaction -
take it easy champ - it isn't claiming to be some factual finale - just take it for what it is - and it is great.

reply to post by audas


Strange. I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying, or just want to argue. Or perhaps there's some communications block with the term "scientific".

Science isn't something that's only done by blokes in lab coats who write journal articles. A "scientific" statement is one that can be objectively understood, and proven or disproven within a context. Such statements lead to hypothesis and experiement, which can be reproducibly verified. So "put five monkeys a particular situation and they will do so-and-so" is a scientific statement.

Anyway, I think I've made my point, and since I think that there is a potentially valuable lesson to the video even if it is false in painting its hypothesis as definitive, I'll leave your opinion on what is and isn't a fable to you yourself.


Edit:

Originally posted by audas
Except its an analogy of human interaction -
take it easy champ - it isn't claiming to be some factual finale - just take it for what it is - and it is great.

Okay - I see where you're going. I just see this kind of extrapolation from believable-yet-unevidenced situations to a general principle all the time - from politicians and ideologues whom I consider untrustworthy. So I'm wary of the device.


[edit on June 10th 2009 by Ian McLean]

What about the monkey who simply ignores the water, climbs the stairs and grabs the banana because he's really hungry?

What if one of the new monkeys is actually a ninja and beats up the other four?

Originally posted by audas

Originally posted by Ian McLean
reply to post by audas

 

No. I wasn't looking for 'rigor', just accuracy - and perhaps evidence thereof. I'm not using a narrow definition of 'science', simply the method of describing a situation and results that can be performed in a verifiable manner. The video does make such 'scientific' claims: it says "place five monkeys in a cage... they will...".

My opinion is that the learned group behavior theorized by the video is exemplified by many aspects of society, both human and animal. But making up (or extrapolating) a situation to exemplify it, and presenting it as what will happen, is dicey.

Absolutely not. The video at NO TIME made any claim to be scientific what so ever - you have ascribed this. Pure and simple.

You have simply surmised that the video was attempting to be scientific - however it was not and does not claim to be and absolutely IS NOT MEANT TO BE.

The irony comes exactly from this position you have erroneously adopted, that you have simply assumed this position and are completely mistaken and wrong -

I find it even more amusing, and ironic, that you are arguing from an untenable position as the evidence is sitting there at the top of the page - yet like the monkeys you persist with enforcing this position - when clearly it does not exist - monkey see monkey do - thats you !

Funny stuff -

You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here. The other poster never made any such claims of scientific relevance other than trying to state that there is no supporting data on the web to substantiate the videos anecdotal evidence. It's anecdotal for the fact that the are presenting evidence as fact when no such evidence of a study ever being conducted nor peer reviewed out there!

reply to post by Ian McLean


Validity of this experiment, doesn't mean that much to me.

Let's replace the scenario with humans...

If I entered the cage as a new human (monkey), went to the stairs, and got the crap absolutely beat out of me as I went for the banana/porn mag.... then I know I wouldn't be going for anymore bananas/porn mags.

I - as a human - would be able to communicate a bit better than the others with language.... but if I couldn't speak to them or use sign language, then I'd be in the same boat guaranteed as New Monkey A in the video.

I wouldn't be able to find out what's going on and I'd fall in line with the rest of them... clueless to why I'm being aggressive, knowing this is how it's supposed to be.

S&F, good vid.



[edit on 10-6-2009 by GioTheGreek]

Originally posted by Ian McLean
reply to post by audas

 

But making up (or extrapolating) a situation to exemplify it, and presenting it as what will happen, is dicey.

Yea, I agree. I could see many different potential outcomes.
Maybe the monkeys would learn to cooperate.
Maybe they would riot or rebel.

Hell, you keep any animal locked up for to long, it's liable to turn on, or flee from thier captor's.

Interesting video OP.


[edit on 10-6-2009 by becomingaware]

All these poor people. thinking that they could do better in the same situation...
NO you could not.

Lets put 5 humans in a room, and set them with a stair case. A piece of meat is placed up top. If any of the humans attempt to climb the stairs every single one gets a electric shock. Im pretty certain that despite a vastly superior mind, that once they realize that the guy going up the stair-case is causing everyone to be shocked, that they will not want anyone else going up there.

Add new monkey, oops I mean 'human' and just like the video it will result i the same thing. Pain is pretty controlling... Hence why torture is so useful, it gathers information... And no, no one is immune to pain. Maybe they have a higher tolerance but no one is immune to it.

Originally posted by Aoxoa
Lets put 5 humans in a room, and set them with a stair case. A piece of meat is placed up top. If any of the humans attempt to climb the stairs every single one gets a electric shock. Im pretty certain that despite a vastly superior mind, that once they realize that the guy going up the stair-case is causing everyone to be shocked, that they will not want anyone else going up there.

Do I have wirecutters?

This video is fantastic and it is a prime example of the manipulation humanity is and possibly always has been a victim of.

There is no need for the video to be scientific,the point is obvious enough as it is.What we have failed io incorporate into the video however is human intelligence and human ability to focus that intellect into a force powerful enough to creat reality.This is the only thing missing.You see humans would have acted the same as the monkeys right up until the water hit them.At that point our intellect would have focused itself and we would have immediately began to create our own reality.We would have done this in our minds first,as the water hit the first monkey and all the other monkeys saw what was happening we would have been "aware" of our cumulative reality or we would have been aware that we were all "aware"together on the same team if you will,we then would have been a co-operative entity comprised of five seperate minds working within a parrelell reality,together with the same cause if you will.WE WOULD NOT HAVE REMAINED IN OUR OWN INDIVIDUAL REALITY LIKE EACH COW IN A HERD THAT ALL PANICS AS SOON AS ONE COW MAKES A FAST MOVE.


The monkeys had they been human would have looked at each other immediately to ratioalise what was happening to the group,then had there been any relationships between any of the monkeys they would have tryed to protect their most loved one by stepping in front of the water hitting that individual,then they would have all seen what was happening to each other and began to formulated a way to create a reality that would stop the water and protect them all,then they would have approached the banana problem again and again until as a group they would have created a reality that allowed them to get the banana.And the timetable would be dependant on need ,like hunger ,this would drive them to cooperate even faster.

A banana or a reward that is material is NOT ENOUGH TO ENCOURAGE HUMANS TO SACRIFICE EACH OTHER .We must be promised something bigger like everlasting life,or heaven,or forgiveness from an entity greater than ourselves,we have to be brainwashed in order to give up our right to create our own reality using our own powers of free will.

You may initially think I am wrong about humans not sacrificing each other for a banana or a piece of gold but think about it for a second.The reasons we manipulate each other are always part of a group(see cumulative reality that we create whenever we are together)agenda ALWAYS WITHOUT FAIL,even an individual who is seemingly acting alone MUST HAVE A GROUP OF HUMANS THAT ARE CREATING A CUMULATIVE REALITY WITH THEM.

These groups all act as individual entities fighting to enlarge their realities with all of their resources.This is a constant in human existance.Religon,countrys,governments,sports teams,bridge clubs,special interest groups,corporate entities,these are all groups that compete with each other based on the same principal,we have to put forth a cumulative effort with other humans for these realities to exist,and we choose to participate in cumulative realities based on HUMAN NEEDS BOTH PHYSICAL AND EMOTIONAL,WHICHEVER HAPPENS TO BE STRONGEST AT THE TIME WILL BE THE DECIDING FACTOR WHEN WE ARE OFFERED AN ALTERNATE PERSPECTIVE OR REALITY AND HAVE THE CHANCE TO JOIN IT TO FULLFILL OUR NEEDS.

So you see my friends when you manipulate humans needs you force them or direct them based on those needs to "feel"that they must choose a reality that YOU CAN ANTICIPATE AND USE TO YOUR ADVANTAGE BASED ON MANIPULATION AND LIES.

Look at it this way,if you put a laptop in front of every human on earth within a one year period our problems would be solved because we would all suddenly be syncronised in terms of understanding our choices we can choose from in terms of the cumulative realities we feel would fulfill our needs the best.Goodbye to any group that isnt global and humanitarian in nature this includes all of the groups I listed earlier.There wouldnt be a military ,ANYWHERE ON EARTH.

If the millions in Africa could all see the choices they really have they would refuse the aid they are getting and demant THE OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE IN A NEW CUMULATIVE REALITY WHICH WOULD FREE THEM FROM THE BONDS OF STARVATION AND SUBJUGATION.Im from Canada,most of them would probably want to move here and I want anyone on the planet who wants to live here to be able to do just that.The only thing stopping this from happening is ALL OF THE LIES AND MANIPULATIONS THAT HAVE been forced upon billions of people by withholding education and information that would allow all of huamity to be syncronised in REAL TIME WITH EACH OTHER giving us an opportunity to unite in one six billion strong cumulative reality that we all must see would by nature be humanitarian without war and starvation,but also without religon and government and society as we know it.It is the cracks called "what is simply lost in translation that these groups use as a weapon"it is intentionally creating roadblocks on the global information highway thereby screwing with REAL TIME by manipulating the way humans feel about their needs and using these small pauses or roadblocks to encourage humans to make MANIPULATED DECISIONS AT A TIME THAT IS MOST BENEFICIAL TO THE MANIPULATOR AND THE VICTIM DOESNT EVEN KNOW IT IS HAPPENING OR HAS HAPPENED.This is an information-hence-time-hence-perspective--hence-reality issue.

It is not that complicated and the monkeys sure were fun but I hope I helped some people actually see what is being done to them and how it is being done ,the guy who thought up the monkey example is on his way to the conclusions I just gifted to you.

I understand the point behind this video and it is a good one. That being said I believe they are using a false logic when it comes to using the monkeys as the example. 2 main reasons being:

1) the reward of the banana would be enough for the monkey to figure out other ways to get the banana or the fact he has to do it quickly to be sprayed a minimum amount of water. So after 1 or 2 attempts i have a feeling either he would climb it quickly to get the banana or use the stairs in an alternative way.

2) I dont think monkeys ban together and beat their own kind. they may run around rampantly trying to avoid the water, but i would bet each one of them would be fighting over the banana than fighting each other not to go up the stairs.

Like I said the video has a point, but the video metaphor was a poor one imo.

reply to post by GioTheGreek


Using monkeys as a moniker for human behavior is just asinine. Humans are of polymorphic equilibrium and revolve on a totally different contribution level than primates. Their synopsis is irrelevant to human behavior!

The internet was a gift to humanity not simply another human innovation,we have the oppotunity and the means to create one single human reality or perspective via the exchange of REAL TIME perspectives all over the world,there has to be attempts to destroy the internet coming from somewhere soon because there is to much to be lost by groups that use violence to defend their realities from being eliminated by the rest of humanity.

Lets maximise this opportunity while it is still here,why doesnt someone who likes organising start finding a way to distribute used unwanted cell phones and laptops with internet acess all over the planet.


An information revolution is what humanity needs and it is non-violent,until you start to do it that is .

Great video, but we should all leave and let these two egg-heads duke it out.

Originally posted by Aoxoa
CUT...
Add new monkey, oops I mean 'human' and just like the video it will result i the same thing. Pain is pretty controlling... Hence why torture is so useful, it gathers information... And no, no one is immune to pain. Maybe they have a higher tolerance but no one is immune to it.

Then how do you explain Yahushua and the COG. Yahushua knew His fate yet did not fear either the pain or the rejection, humiliation, and... death? The "Monkeys" did indeed do everything that they could to make Yahushua cease and desist what they knew would result in problems for their fellow "Monkeys".

So the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered the Council and said, "What are we to do? For this man performs many signs. If we let him go on like this, everyone will believe in him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation." (Joh 11:47-48)

No..... this is not a "sermon". I am just taking this opportunity to emphasize that "The Way" is not "Monkey see Monkey do". Teach your children The Way of Yahushua and you will not have this M-I-N-D-C-O-N-T-R-O-L Monkey effect. It's the tribe/nation/religions/gang into which we are "first born" that demand acquiescence to the "herd". Yahushua and the COG do not fear intimidation by the tribe/nation/religions/gang.

reply to post by Ian McLean


Did you happen to notice that the monkeys had "human" bodies? I do not think this video was meant to be taken in a literal sense. Instead, imagine the monkeys as humans. Then it should make more sense to you and not require any validity.

This is a great video. If you want research, I recommend googling the Stanford prison experiment.

I think this movie shows us one possibility that can happen.
But there are many scenarios that could happen. No monkey is a like.

If they can communicate verbally they could also discuss options to solve the problem. Or make a sacrifice and get wet so they could get the bananas. (Team work )
We humans are willingly to make sacrifices all the time on different levels every day.

There are many solutions to this problem. And all you need is one monkey with a new idea.

[edit on 27.06.08 by spy66]

Originally posted by Ian McLean
I've searched and searched, but I can't find any sources that indicate this "experiment" is anything other than a fable.

Perhaps some monkey would wait until the others are asleep then grab the banana. Or the banana would rot and none of them would want it. Monkeys aren't stupid; the do self-assert and try creative things.

This video is junk pseudo-science, that attempts to dress up a perhaps-valid point as a basic law of behavioral psychology. In fact, the anecdote is the kind of disinformation it tries to exemplify - accepting authority opinion without validation.

compare it to us humans and it makes sense though.........Why does nobody question the government ? Why don't we talk about ufo's ? Because we will be laughed at and called crazy and nobody will respect us.....If we continue, soon enough nobody will want to be around us...........Nobody wants to be alone so we simple keep our thoughts and ideas to ourselves in order to " fit in " with everybody else....

Thanks for being being a know it all......You seem to know everything so please explain what "is actually happeneing " in society then..........