How we are Conditioned to act without Reason *Video* Must See*, page 2
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reply posted on 10-6-2009 @ 10:09 AM by Ian McLean
reply to post by audas



Strange. I think you're misinterpreting what I'm saying, or just want to argue. Or perhaps there's some communications block with the term "scientific".

Science isn't something that's only done by blokes in lab coats who write journal articles. A "scientific" statement is one that can be objectively understood, and proven or disproven within a context. Such statements lead to hypothesis and experiement, which can be reproducibly verified. So "put five monkeys a particular situation and they will do so-and-so" is a scientific statement.

Anyway, I think I've made my point, and since I think that there is a potentially valuable lesson to the video even if it is false in painting its hypothesis as definitive, I'll leave your opinion on what is and isn't a fable to you yourself.


Edit:
Originally posted by audas
Except its an analogy of human interaction -
take it easy champ - it isn't claiming to be some factual finale - just take it for what it is - and it is great.

Okay - I see where you're going. I just see this kind of extrapolation from believable-yet-unevidenced situations to a general principle all the time - from politicians and ideologues whom I consider untrustworthy. So I'm wary of the device.


[edit on June 10th 2009 by Ian McLean]


reply posted on 10-6-2009 @ 11:23 AM by Bearack
Originally posted by audas
Originally posted by Ian McLean
reply to
post by audas



No. I wasn't looking for 'rigor', just accuracy - and perhaps evidence thereof. I'm not using a narrow definition of 'science', simply the method of describing a situation and results that can be performed in a verifiable manner. The video does make such 'scientific' claims: it says "place five monkeys in a cage... they will...".

My opinion is that the learned group behavior theorized by the video is exemplified by many aspects of society, both human and animal. But making up (or extrapolating) a situation to exemplify it, and presenting it as what will happen, is dicey.


Absolutely not. The video at NO TIME made any claim to be scientific what so ever - you have ascribed this. Pure and simple.

You have simply surmised that the video was attempting to be scientific - however it was not and does not claim to be and absolutely IS NOT MEANT TO BE.

The irony comes exactly from this position you have erroneously adopted, that you have simply assumed this position and are completely mistaken and wrong -

I find it even more amusing, and ironic, that you are arguing from an untenable position as the evidence is sitting there at the top of the page - yet like the monkeys you persist with enforcing this position - when clearly it does not exist - monkey see monkey do - thats you !

Funny stuff -


You're making a mountain out of a mole hill here. The other poster never made any such claims of scientific relevance other than trying to state that there is no supporting data on the web to substantiate the videos anecdotal evidence. It's anecdotal for the fact that the are presenting evidence as fact when no such evidence of a study ever being conducted nor peer reviewed out there!


reply posted on 10-6-2009 @ 11:24 AM by GioTheGreek
reply to post by Ian McLean



Validity of this experiment, doesn't mean that much to me.

Let's replace the scenario with humans...

If I entered the cage as a new human (monkey), went to the stairs, and got the crap absolutely beat out of me as I went for the banana/porn mag.... then I know I wouldn't be going for anymore bananas/porn mags.

I - as a human - would be able to communicate a bit better than the others with language.... but if I couldn't speak to them or use sign language, then I'd be in the same boat guaranteed as New Monkey A in the video.

I wouldn't be able to find out what's going on and I'd fall in line with the rest of them... clueless to why I'm being aggressive, knowing this is how it's supposed to be.

S&F, good vid.



[edit on 10-6-2009 by GioTheGreek]


reply posted on 10-6-2009 @ 11:32 AM by becomingaware
Originally posted by Ian McLean
reply to
post by audas



But making up (or extrapolating) a situation to exemplify it, and presenting it as what will happen, is dicey.


Yea, I agree. I could see many different potential outcomes.
Maybe the monkeys would learn to cooperate.
Maybe they would riot or rebel.

Hell, you keep any animal locked up for to long, it's liable to turn on, or flee from thier captor's.

Interesting video OP.


[edit on 10-6-2009 by becomingaware]



reply posted on 10-6-2009 @ 11:43 AM by one4all
This video is fantastic and it is a prime example of the manipulation humanity is and possibly always has been a victim of.

There is no need for the video to be scientific,the point is obvious enough as it is.What we have failed io incorporate into the video however is human intelligence and human ability to focus that intellect into a force powerful enough to creat reality.This is the only thing missing.You see humans would have acted the same as the monkeys right up until the water hit them.At that point our intellect would have focused itself and we would have immediately began to create our own reality.We would have done this in our minds first,as the water hit the first monkey and all the other monkeys saw what was happening we would have been "aware" of our cumulative reality or we would have been aware that we were all "aware"together on the same team if you will,we then would have been a co-operative entity comprised of five seperate minds working within a parrelell reality,together with the same cause if you will.WE WOULD NOT HAVE REMAINED IN OUR OWN INDIVIDUAL REALITY LIKE EACH COW IN A HERD THAT ALL PANICS AS SOON AS ONE COW MAKES A FAST MOVE.


The monkeys had they been human would have looked at each other immediately to ratioalise what was happening to the group,then had there been any relationships between any of the monkeys they would have tryed to protect their most loved one by stepping in front of the water hitting that individual,then they would have all seen what was happening to each other and began to formulated a way to create a reality that would stop the water and protect them all,then they would have approached the banana problem again and again until as a group they would have created a reality that allowed them to get the banana.And the timetable would be dependant on need ,like hunger ,this would drive them to cooperate even faster.

A banana or a reward that is material is NOT ENOUGH TO ENCOURAGE HUMANS TO SACRIFICE EACH OTHER .We must be promised something bigger like everlasting life,or heaven,or forgiveness from an entity greater than ourselves,we have to be brainwashed in order to give up our right to create our own reality using our own powers of free will.

You may initially think I am wrong about humans not sacrificing each other for a banana or a piece of gold but think about it for a second.The reasons we manipulate each other are always part of a group(see cumulative reality that we create whenever we are together)agenda ALWAYS WITHOUT FAIL,even an individual who is seemingly acting alone MUST HAVE A GROUP OF HUMANS THAT ARE CREATING A CUMULATIVE REALITY WITH THEM.

These groups all act as individual entities fighting to enlarge their realities with all of their resources.This is a constant in human existance.Religon,countrys,governments,sports teams,bridge clubs,special interest groups,corporate entities,these are all groups that compete with each other based on the same principal,we have to put forth a cumulative effort with other humans for these realities to exist,and we choose to participate in cumulative realities based on HUMAN NEEDS BOTH PHYSICAL AND EMOTIONAL,WHICHEVER HAPPENS TO BE STRONGEST AT THE TIME WILL BE THE DECIDING FACTOR WHEN WE ARE OFFERED AN ALTERNATE PERSPECTIVE OR REALITY AND HAVE THE CHANCE TO JOIN IT TO FULLFILL OUR NEEDS.

So you see my friends when you manipulate humans needs you force them or direct them based on those needs to "feel"that they must choose a reality that YOU CAN ANTICIPATE AND USE TO YOUR ADVANTAGE BASED ON MANIPULATION AND LIES.

Look at it this way,if you put a laptop in front of every human on earth within a one year period our problems would be solved because we would all suddenly be syncronised in terms of understanding our choices we can choose from in terms of the cumulative realities we feel would fulfill our needs the best.Goodbye to any group that isnt global and humanitarian in nature this includes all of the groups I listed earlier.There wouldnt be a military ,ANYWHERE ON EARTH.

If the millions in Africa could all see the choices they really have they would refuse the aid they are getting and demant THE OPPORTUNITY TO PARTICIPATE IN A NEW CUMULATIVE REALITY WHICH WOULD FREE THEM FROM THE BONDS OF STARVATION AND SUBJUGATION.Im from Canada,most of them would probably want to move here and I want anyone on the planet who wants to live here to be able to do just that.The only thing stopping this from happening is ALL OF THE LIES AND MANIPULATIONS THAT HAVE been forced upon billions of people by withholding education and information that would allow all of huamity to be syncronised in REAL TIME WITH EACH OTHER giving us an opportunity to unite in one six billion strong cumulative reality that we all must see would by nature be humanitarian without war and starvation,but also without religon and government and society as we know it.It is the cracks called "what is simply lost in translation that these groups use as a weapon"it is intentionally creating roadblocks on the global information highway thereby screwing with REAL TIME by manipulating the way humans feel about their needs and using these small pauses or roadblocks to encourage humans to make MANIPULATED DECISIONS AT A TIME THAT IS MOST BENEFICIAL TO THE MANIPULATOR AND THE VICTIM DOESNT EVEN KNOW IT IS HAPPENING OR HAS HAPPENED.This is an information-hence-time-hence-perspective--hence-reality issue.

It is not that complicated and the monkeys sure were fun but I hope I helped some people actually see what is being done to them and how it is being done ,the guy who thought up the monkey example is on his way to the conclusions I just gifted to you.


reply posted on 10-6-2009 @ 11:50 AM by Bearack
reply to post by GioTheGreek



Using monkeys as a moniker for human behavior is just asinine. Humans are of polymorphic equilibrium and revolve on a totally different contribution level than primates. Their synopsis is irrelevant to human behavior!


reply posted on 10-6-2009 @ 12:49 PM by RichieScott1
reply to post by Ian McLean



Did you happen to notice that the monkeys had "human" bodies? I do not think this video was meant to be taken in a literal sense. Instead, imagine the monkeys as humans. Then it should make more sense to you and not require any validity.
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