The god Paradox And The Choice Offered To You

reply t to post by contemplator

You really do not know what you are talking about.If you are honestly trying to figure out what you believe fine.Seems to me that you have made yourself God and that is your freewill choice.In the end you will figure out that you don't have all the answers and you will still be searching to fill the void in your spirit that we all were created with.You can fill it with whatever turns you on but you will still feel empty.Open your heart and mind,ask God to show you that He is real because you don't think he is,be brutally honest,He can take it.In the end if you seek you will find. Good Luck

reply to post by holywar

The Bible is ONE big and harmonious puzzle with a very clear picture. You can't jam a piece of the puzzle where it does not belong.

What, exactly, does not fit? This parable? Or some misinterpretation of it? Of course a misinterpretation will not fit.
Look at what is going on here. Hell in this case is in conformity with the bible because it is a gathering of the people who died. They are not dead, obviously, at this point. This corresponds with the second resurrection.
The rich man looks up. He is on a low plain with the New Jerusalem above. The marriage of the Lamb is going on and he sees Lazarus enjoying the festivities. (Though the walls are high, he can somehow see people above them.) There is an uncrossable gulf between him and the blessed party and he realizes he can not go there and it causes him tremendous mental torment.
This is a parable but it is the same event that is in Revelation, told from the point of view of the lost person, instead of from up in the city, of which it is said: And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life.
. . .the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. . .
Before that was the first resurrection. The holy were part of the first resurrection. The un-holy await the second resurrection. They end up demonstrating their unrepentant condition by attacking the city, which apparently is there. It may be not so apparent to the casual reader because John does not make his book in strict chronological order.
The scene is set, with the previously dead sinners gathered, and the city with the saved, as the center of attention.



[edit on 31-5-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by holywar
reply to post by heyo

 

I like your thessalonians verset is very powerful. Also see Luke 16: 19-31 for added poignancy. (niv)

You think Jesus' PARABLE of the rich man and Lazarus supports a hell doctrine?

Well, sorry it does NOT, although that seems to be the popular consensus. That PARABLE actually explains a role change between the Jewish religious class, and the poor spiritually hungry class.

Watch THIS

Jesus used hell in the parable to make the two ideas congruent. The idea of infinite hell was so known, that it was the perfect template for the message concerning what is ultimately the fulfillment of the covenant. I know what you're saying...it's the reason why he didn't allow the teacher of the law to join. actions, or blind obedience, worship without heart vs. true love and faith.
We definately don't agree on this!! lol. it's okay tho this is probably the calmest religious discussion thread i've been in.

reply to post by heyo


The idea of an eternal hell is absurd IMO. What parent punishes their child for eternity? If you love your child, then you will have to punish them from time to time. But it's not done to give them pain and such, it's done to teach them a lesson. If you punish your child for eternity, it's not love. It's a sickness.

However, if someone refuses to learn the lessons, then I think it would be possible for someone to spend forever being punished. I would equate that to being like someone who puts their hand on a stove eye, and then refuses to take it off even after knowing the eye is burning them. At which point I think the father would just have to put you out of your misery.

And if you sow bad things, then you will reap them. And that is a bit of hell someone will experience and so on. You are already in hell IMO. You pay for sins all the time.

reply to post by jmdewey60


my puzzle analogy is to help you understand that the mainstream understanding of God torturing eternally does NOT FIT the whole picture.

GOD IS SADISTIC???? how does this fit with all the texts that talk about God being LOVE and all the text that show that dead people ARE NOT CONSCIENCE.

You can't jam a false doctrine into the puzzle, it messes up the picture!!!!!!!!

people that use certain texts that seem to support a hell doctrine is simply because they don't understand the scripture. They take symbolism literally.

the rich man and Lazarus is a classic example.

I'll check to see if there is already a thread about hell, if not, I'll start one.

reply to post by holywar

You can't jam a false doctrine into the puzzle, it messes up the picture

Right, but you should not say the Bible is false, either.
The parable is not a falsehood. It is misunderstood because they have a wrong idea of what hell is. There is a hell, or Jesus is a liar. You just have to define it properly. My way of course is not going to be the same as yours because your religion has already taken over these verses for the purpose of supporting some doctrine. (the resurrection is off-topic for this thread)
Anyway, here is a note on Luke 16:23 from NetBible: Hades is a place of torment, especially as one knows that he is separated from God.


[edit on 1-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60

but you should not say the Bible is false

jmdewey, I'll ask you to please NOT do this. Please don't put words in my mouth. NOT NICE!!!!

me saying a doctrine is false does not equal me saying the Bible is false.

:bnghd:

It is not a difficult concept to understand.

A person points a gun to your head and tells you to do his bidding. Or else you will be shot and die.

This is the same as choosing between heaven and hell.

Christians will argue that it's a choice. Sure, you have a choice, but you'd have to be suicidal to choose the latter.

Your will to live and your will NOT to suffer will push you toward choosing the former. If it is a choice at all.

Nobody in their right mind will choose to suffer for all eternity.

reply to post by Deaf Alien
God did not create man to have a barbecue.
People who will provide a ready made population for the new universe will be brought along.
People who want to keep on with the old one will go into nonexistence, along with the entire universe.
Like I said above, sin is not trivial and God had to die for it, through His Son. Those who will be cleansed can continue on without contaminating our new Earth.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I do not think you are really understanding the paradox.

Scholars have had to struggle with this question for centuries. Calvinist settled with the concept of predestination. That is telling you a lot.

WHO would want to suffer for all eternity? Would you?

Either this is a false concept, or you would have to settle for Calvinism which is another false concept.

my friend blue jay saved me the trouble of having to start a thread on hell, can't believe I missed that blue jay, your OP was awesome!!

blue Jay's thread on Hell here

some HELL related videos

here

and here

this video here talks about the hope for the dead.



[edit on 1-6-2009 by holywar]

reply to post by badmedia



the thing about children is they grow up. Maybe, if you go to hell, you were grown up to know better.

reply to post by Deaf Alien

Either this is a false concept, or you would have to settle for Calvinism which is another false concept.

Double predestination is not appealing to me. There is something that can be said about Calvin though I do not like him as a person.
I was talking to my cousin doctor of theology and said, You have Luther here and Calvin over here, which one is right? He said, Both.
Anyway, the argument you present does not work with me very well because I do not believe in the Greek or Roman or Medieval hell.
I guess there is still a point even if you leave out the everlasting torment. I do not believe we really have a choice. What my cousin likes to say, mainly in trying to persuade me to stop writing on this forum, is that some are just not called and forget about them.


[edit on 1-6-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by heyo
the thing about children is they grow up. Maybe, if you go to hell, you were grown up to know better.

What will happen is that person will simply die, cease to exist as an individual and so forth. Their soul will be killed. Which probably isn't something most people would want, but it's actually not a bad thing really. Just means your soul/consciousness will be absorbed back in by the father. All things of the father will eventually return to the father.

And even that would only be reserved to those who have known and seen the truth, but turned their backs on it. AKA the wicked. The majority of people are just poor in spirit. Meaning, they have no clue what the truth is and do not understand. As such, they have not rejected it either.

So when thinking of adult vs child here, I think you would need to look in terms of understanding rather than age etc. IE: Child would be the majority of people, those who lack understanding and are poor in spirit. Adult would be those who know and understand the truth, no longer poor in spirit.

You don't punish your child when they didn't know better. When they didn't know any better, then you try to teach them better. It is only when they know better that you punish them. And this is also for the purpose of trying to teach them a lesson or for their own good etc.

Not really disagreeing with you here, just clarifying. But you are already in hell. Do you not pay for your mistakes now? Who is it that runs this world? Do you not suffer and feel pain? Would you not like to 'get out'? Move on to a better place? A world not full of lies, deception and manipulation etc.


[edit on 1-6-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by holywar

my friend blue jay saved me the trouble of having to start a thread on hell, can't believe I missed that blue jay, your OP was awesome!!

I might be just paranoid but usually when I start posting on a thread in Conspiracy, it gets booted over here. I will post on it when it shows up on this forum. That way I will know it is not my fault.

reply to post by jmdewey60


I think this section is better anymore anyway. I use to spend the majority of my time in the conspiracy section, but anything of any real value gets thrown over here usually.

The only thread I ever created was about what religious conspirators do in order to manipulate the people. And that was also moved over here.

I don't think the mods have any real clue when it comes to where to put topics between the 2 forums. If a topic describing how conspirators use symbols and such for manipulation isn't a topic dealing with conspiracies in religion, then what is? Preachers touching little boys?

What sucks is the other forum gets alot more traffic and replies. When my thread was in the other forum, it got more attention. It didn't last very long over there, and died almost instantly after being put over here.

reply to post by jmdewey60

I might be just paranoid but usually when I start posting on a thread in Conspiracy, it gets booted over here. I will post on it when it shows up on this forum. That way I will know it is not my fault.

Well, the thread has earned quite a bit of stars and flags, so I think it's earned it's right to remain where it is. But hey, you never know

reply to post by badmedia

What will happen is that person will simply die, cease to exist as an individual and so forth. Their soul will be killed. Which probably isn't something most people would want, but it's actually not a bad thing really.

Which is another paradox in itself.

You either exist or you don't

You just don't wake up and say, "Hey I exist!" and you don't just disappear into oblivion. That would imply that time exists.

From when from eternity past did you exist and from when in eternity future will you disappear?

You either exist or you don't.

Originally posted by Deaf Alien
Which is another paradox in itself.

You either exist or you don't

You just don't wake up and say, "Hey I exist!" and you don't just disappear into oblivion. That would imply that time exists.

From when from eternity past did you exist and from when in eternity future will you disappear?

You either exist or you don't.

Actually, if you really think about it, then you will see that is impossible for you to not exist. As you obviously already do exist. Thus death isn't actually real.

The truth is, you are god. Your soul is an individual consciousness of the father. All are connected and so forth. As it is impossible for you to not exist, then what happens is that you are absorbed by the father. You go back to where you came from. So you do not exactly "die", but "you" as an individual dies.

Even when we speak of souls and consciousness, they are possessions. So it's just your individuality that "dies". That which it is that "is" and knows what it means "to be" and that which "observes" is the father/god. That is eternal and doesn't die. That is the father within you. And all things of the father will return to the father eventually.

Death of the soul = death of the individuality. When you "sell your soul", then you sell your individuality and free will in order to serve another. etc.



[edit on 1-6-2009 by badmedia]