is the trinity a biblical doctrine?

27. Bible says twice that Jesus was accused of being God, but he denied it

According to the Bible, on only two instances the Jews opposed Jesus on the basis that he pretended to be God or equal with God. Had Jesus, may the blessing and mercy of God be upon him, claimed to be God, he is likely to have been opposed on this basis more frequently. Because in these two instances, when charged, in the one case, with making himself God, and in the other, with making himself equal with God, he denied the charges. In reply to the charge of being an equal with God, he says immediately:

John 5:19, 30 “The son can do nothing of himself, but what he sees the Father do”; and directly after:

“I can of mine own self do nothing.”

In answer to the charge of making himself God, he appeals to the Jews in substance thus: Your own Scriptures call Moses a god, and your magistrates gods; I am surely not inferior to them, yet I did not call myself God, but only the “son” of God (John 10:34-36).

Additional Problems with Trinity

To a Christian, God had to take human form to understand temptation and human suffering, but the concept is not based on any clear words of Jesus. In contrast, God does not need to be tempted and suffer in order to be able to understand and forgive man’s sins, for He is the all knowing Creator of man. This is expressed in the verse:

Exodus 3:7 “And the Lord said: ‘I have surely seen the affliction of My people that are in Egypt, and I have heard their cry because of their taskmasters; for I know their pains.’”

Christians claim that in the birth of Jesus, there occurred the miracle of the incarnation of God in the form of a human being. To say that God became truly a human being invites a number of questions. Let us ask the following about the man-God Jesus. What happened to his foreskin after his circumcision (Luke 2:21)? Did it ascend to heaven, or did it decompose as with any human piece of flesh? During his lifetime what happened to his hair, nails, and blood shed from wounds? Did the cells of his body die as in ordinary human beings? If his body did not function in a truly human way, he could not be truly human as well as truly God. Yet, if his body functioned exactly in a human way, this would nullify any claim to divinity. It would be impossible for any part of God, even if incarnate, to decompose in any way and still be considered God. The everlasting, one God, in whole or in part, does not die, disintegrate, or decompose:

Malachi 3:6 “For I the Lord do not change.”

Did Jesus’ flesh dwell in safety after his death? Unless Jesus’ body never underwent “decay” during his lifetime he could not be God, but if it did not undergo “decay” then he was not truly human.

reply to post by miriam0566


You go girl, got you on a roll now

I am afraid those that stubbornly cling emotionally and dogmatically to the Trinity, but are really sincere end up having Romans 10:2&3 apply to themselves.

(Amplified Bible)
2I bear them witness that they have a [certain] zeal and enthusiasm for God, but it is not enlightened and according to [correct and vital] knowledge.
3For being ignorant of the righteousness that God ascribes [which makes one acceptable to Him in word, thought, and deed] and seeking to establish a righteousness (a means of salvation) of their own, they did not obey or submit themselves to God's righteousness.

&

(God's Word)
2 I can assure you that they are deeply devoted to God, but they are misguided. 3 They don't understand how to receive God's approval. So they try to set up their own way to get it, and they have not accepted God's way for receiving his approval.

To be in this category is very sad.

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Yes, bluejay, very sad indeed!

If people could just understand the real dangers of holding on to this false doctrine. Not only does the believer of this doctrine NULLIFY Jesus' ransom sacrifice, but they end up worshiping a FALSE GOD!

Trinitarians, can you not see how this is a satanical doctrine? It serves Satan quite well. It does not allow you to KNOW (and therefore correctly worship) the TRUE God, Jehovah. (JOHN 17:3)



[edit on 26-3-2009 by holywar]

hello All

I would like to point out the following verses, the debate for KJV is another issue.

1 Peter 2:3 KJV

If so be ye have tasted that the Lord is gracious

1 Peter 2:3 NLT

now that you have had a taste of the Lord’s kindness.

This verse in both Bibles is a quote from Psalms 34:8 and the Lord in 34:8 is Jehovah = "the existing One"

Yet in context of the scripture and you can read on in 1 Peter 2 that this is so clear it is talking about Christ and yet the NLT uses the greek word for God.

david

reply to post by drevill


Yes it could be confusing, but it isn't, once you do the research on the Greek on this.

“The Lord.” Gr., ho Ky′ri·os. In a comment on this vs F. J. A. Hort wrote in The First Epistle of St Peter, London, 1898, p. 104: “In the Psalm [34:8] ὁ κύριος stands for Jehovah, as it very often does, the LXX. inserting and omitting the article with κύριος on no apparent principle. On the other hand the next verse shews St Peter to have used ὁ κύριος in its commonest though not universal N.T. sense, of Christ. It would be rash however to conclude that he meant to identify Jehovah with Christ. No such identification can be clearly made out in the N.T.  St Peter is not here making a formal quotation, but merely borrowing O.T. language, and applying it in his own manner. His use, though different from that of the Psalm, is not at variance with it, for it is through the χρηστότης [khre·sto′tes, “kindness”] of the Son that the χρηστότης of the Father is clearly made known to Christians: ‘he that hath seen me hath seen the Father.’

Originally posted by drevill
Yet in context of the scripture and you can read on in 1 Peter 2 that this is so clear it is talking about Christ and yet the NLT uses the greek word for God.

blue jay explained that very well. but likely trinitarians will say that is just interpretation.

ok, but now i have a question.

in the context of the bible as a whole, being able to cite scripture after scripture showing jesus to be separate person from god, which interpretation is more likely given the context?

im not necessarily asking you drevill, but its more a general question.

it seems like to get evidence for the trinity, you have to climb uphill. you have to go against context, even twisting the meaning of certain scriptures (like john 1:1), or making obscure connection like ¨i am¨, to get what you are looking for. shouldnt the scriptures speak for themselves?

isnt it more logical to see where the large body of evidence is taking you?

to pit john 10:30 ¨I and my Father are one.¨ against scriptures like john 14:38 ¨my Father is greater than I.¨ or luke 18:19 ¨Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.¨, wouldnt it be obvious that john 10:30 is metaphoric?

i just cant comprehend how logic and reason can take you into the opposite direction

reply to post by miriam0566

Not voicing my personal beliefs here, but from what I've understood through previous conversations on this topic, Luke 18:19 is actually PROOF that Jesus is God, because he was called good, and only God is good, thus Jesus was actually making a point in his rebuke.

A rather roundabout explanation, but an explanation nonetheless, which is why I didn't include it in my question in the previous page: it had already been explained.

I got a question, who is Jesus if he is not God?

reply to post by Aliengurl

Apparently he is "Son of God". At least according to the Bible.

[edit on 26-3-2009 by babloyi]

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by Aliengurl

 

Apparently he is the "Son of God". At least according to the Bible.

Who was he in the beginning as the "Word" before he became Jesus?

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by miriam0566

 

Not voicing my personal beliefs here, but from what I've understood through previous conversations on this topic, Luke 18:19 is actually PROOF that Jesus is God, because he was called good, and only God is good, thus Jesus was actually making a point in his rebuke.

A rather roundabout explanation, but an explanation nonetheless, which is why I didn't include it in my question in the previous page: it had already been explained.

ok, if he was right to call jesus good, then why was jesus rebuking him?

Originally posted by Aliengurl
Who was he in the beginning as the "Word" before he became Jesus?

son of god, firstborn of all creation. the beginning of god´s creation

reply to post by babloyi

I think you are pulling out those quotes from memory so I looked up what seemed to me to fit what you wrote.
first
John 10:30 (King James Version)
I and my Father are one.
second
Revelation 22:13 (King James Version)
I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Exodus 20:3 (King James Version)
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Exodus 34:14 (King James Version)
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God:
Mark 12:32 (King James Version)
And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:
1 Corinthians 8:4 (King James Version)
As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
third
John 14:28 (King James Version)
Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.
fourth
Exodus 18:11 (King James Version)
Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods: for in the thing wherein they dealt proudly he was above them.
Your questions are absolutely legitimate and deserve to be addressed. I will take a stab at it.
I think the first thing to do is drop the word “trinity” because it should not be used to describe God. It is a later invention that has at its core, pagan philosophy. Paul says there is one God and one Lord and one Holy Spirit in whom we have communion. He does not go ahead and describe how these are parts of God. God is not a “thing” that we can lay out and examine and from our human understanding, make determinations about how it can be taken apart.
God was able to begat a son. We do not know how he did this exactly but we can get a couple of clues about it. There was an existence of an aspect of God that is maybe something that could possibly be understood as a fractal, that in itself, as a part, is everything that is in the whole. The Bible says it was with God and it was God. Again, it is not really a thing, but an existence that is far beyond what is comprehensible to the human mind. So, the Gospel of John starts right out developing this concept that there was a pre-existent something that could live somewhat apart from the whole but still retain everything that is of the whole.
I have to think that Jesus is not like an ambassador to man from God who works as a mere representative. By some unfathomable mechanism, we have God actually with us, but in the form of a normal human. Now that human, known to us as Jesus, is not a phantom or specter. He is fully and completely human in the flesh. He was conceived by the overshadowing of the spirit of God and was gestated by and given birth to, by a female human being. In every aspect, he was a human and lived a life as any person would, but he was the son of God. Was Jesus God? Yes he was. Was Jesus a human? Yes he was. Was Jesus lacking, in any degree, any of the attributes of God? No. Was Jesus, as a human, subordinate to the will of God? Yes, he was. Was his father, to him, as a human, greater than he? Yes, the Father was Greater than the Son.
Now, do we end up somehow with a fractured God who is now divisible into three equal parts? No, because God is one and within God is complete unity. Is there a seed of Abraham who was born to fulfill the promise and to cause God to give blessing to all the world through him? Yes, Jesus was that seed that was promised. Is there a mediator between Jesus and God? No because God is one and there are no two parties, as Paul points out in Galatians 3: 19 and 20. We have no mediation between man and God other than in the person of Jesus who is man and also God.


[edit on 26-3-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Aliengurl
Who was he in the beginning as the "Word" before he became Jesus?

son of god, firstborn of all creation. the beginning of god´s creation

But before he became a man and the Son Of God, who was he in heaven, was he just the "Word"?

reply to post by jmdewey60

Actually the second verse I quoted was Isaiah 44:6


So you are saying that Jesus is a sort of Avatar? Also, just to clarify, what happened to the human side of Jesus, born of a woman here on earth? Is it dead now? Is it gone? Also, I didn't really understand the part you said about the mediator...if Jesus is God, then why do we need a mediator between us and God (Jesus)?

Originally posted by Aliengurl
But before he became a man and the Son Of God, who was he in heaven, was he just the "Word"?

he always was and always will be the only begotten son of god. before he was human and after. he is the only of creation directly created by god.

being the "word" of god is no mere title. it implies that god used jesus to convey his will. this job wasnt just limited to his time before coming to earth. jesus taught the will of god during his life on earth and also revealed god's will after (to paul and even to john in revelations)

its likely too that angels recieved instructions through jesus (although there are scriptures for and against this assumption)

jesus was also god's "masterworker". since he is "only begotten" it is likely that god used jesus to create everything else. (proverbs 8)

jesus did many things before coming to earth.

Originally posted by babloyi
if Jesus is God, then why do we need a mediator between us and God (Jesus)?

exactly.

the ransom falls apart the second you elevate jesus to equality of god.

Originally posted by babloyi
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

Actually the second verse I quoted was Isaiah 44:6

So you are saying that Jesus is a sort of Avatar? Also, just to clarify, what happened to the human side of Jesus, born of a woman here on earth? Is it dead now? Is it gone? Also, I didn't really understand the part you said about the mediator...if Jesus is God, then why do we need a mediator between us and God (Jesus)?

No, Jesus is not an Avatar. Jesus is an actual person and has a status as a person that was necessary to complete his work on earth. While he was on earth, he hid his god-like aspect of his full identity. Now that he is in heaven, that part of himself is evident, as those in heaven are of a spiritual nature and can withstand the sight of him. John was in heaven, in a spiritual way though he seems to have retained a body of sorts. John was able to see Jesus as he is, and he was recognizable as a person with human form but having a glorified aspect about him. When John reacted to the sight and fell down, Jesus explained to John who he was and acknowledged that he had, once he was in heaven all the full powers of God and was in fact God, as we know Him. That human who was born God, once his act of redemption was made sure, in a normal bodily form, was given, or received, the power to carry out the completion of work to collect the souls of fallen men who believed in him and to safeguard them and then to bring them back to life.
We need a mediator because our own transformation is not complete and that is where the Holy spirit comes in, to bring about a direction within us to turn towards what we should be. Once the whole thing is complete and Satan is restrained from doing any further harm to us, we will be gathered and we become, "all in all" and have a unity about us that is a reflection of the unity of God. Then there will be no need of any mediation and we will all be face to face, god and man without discord. Meanwhile, Jesus is in full harmony with God and stands before Him as a representation of our future selves.

reply to post by babloyi

I am looking at your post again and I see the nuance here. So, I did not answer what you really were trying to get at. If Jesus is God, why is he mediating with God. Another incomprehensible thing.
The thing is, to me, and what I really take a dislike to, is this idea that God transformed Himself from this cruel, vindictive Old Testament God into this kind and forgiving God and the old God no longer exists. That is just not true. God is loving in one aspect, towards those who believe in Him but is destructive to those who defy Him. That nature of God did not go away. The fact that He did not wipe out the planet is because of the mediation of Christ, although he was yet to have an actual physical existence. God was kind to David not because he was a good man but because he trusted in God completely and God said, your son shall be my son and I will be his Father. God sought out that line to be His path to carry out His will to have a redeemer for man. God had an intention to do all these things and He was not to be averted from what He set Himself to accomplish, so to Him, it was as good as done and upon that surety he held back His hand from wiping us out. Now, this person is the seed and though He gave the promise to Abraham, the actual promise was to the seed, himself and when the man, Jesus, recognized that he was that seed spoken of in the scripture, he had the faith of David, his earthly father, to grasp upon that faith that he directed to his heavenly Father and was able to keep his whits about him and not fall prey to the snares of Satan.
The real tricky part that required Jesus to be directly born of God was that more than human ability to take upon himself the full condemnation of the sins of all the world, from Adam to the last person before the trump of resurrection is sounded. No mere mortal could have withstood the crushing weight of it and Jesus had to draw upon the God nature, out of himself, to hold him up until the human nature was finally put to death, from his torture at the hands of the agents of Satan.


[edit on 27-3-2009 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by Aliengurl

Originally posted by miriam0566

Originally posted by Aliengurl
Who was he in the beginning as the "Word" before he became Jesus?

son of god, firstborn of all creation. the beginning of god´s creation

But before he became a man and the Son Of God, who was he in heaven, was he just the "Word"?

It is found that Jesus gave quite a few "I am" declarations in the Gospel of John. He clearly says he existed before Abraham:

"I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" John 8: 58.

Another "I am" declaration is also found in verse 8:

"When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, "I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life." John 8:12

Jesus is not referring to regular sunlight but to what is known as the primordial light of creation. The creation of this light occurred on the very first day of creation:

"And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning--the first day." Genesis 1:3-5

There are only three things that preceed this light. The first is the utterance of the actual words "Let there be light." Jesus is this utterance and he became the light of life.

The second thing that preceeded the WORD here - is the Spirit of God hovering over the WATERS:

"Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters." Genesis 1:

The Holy Spirit doesn't change. If it hovered over the darkness and the waters of this world and brought them to life, it is more than capable to do this with us, as individuals. The Holy Spirit of God moves upon us and this is the New Covenant:

"And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth. For there are three that testify: the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement." 1John 5:6-8

If you do not have the Holy Spirit - you don't KNOW the truth and you don't know Jesus nor the Father and cannot possibly understand how God has worked through people, from the beginning of time because he is Spirit. This is how Jesus was able to say to Philip, 'if you've seen me - you've seen the Father."

So just how ancient is our Jesus?

"But you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, though you are small among the clans of Judah, out of you will come for me one who will be ruler over Israel, whose origins are from of old, from ancient times. " Micah 5:2

And lastly, before God's Spirit hovered over the waters, heaven and earth were created:

"In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:1

And King David sang:

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth." Psalm 33:6

When a word is spoken, the very breath in us is used.

Jesus as the word is the very breath of God.

If Jesus is the very breath of God - what does that tell you?