is the trinity a biblical doctrine?

reply to post by HIFIGUY

Whether one understands the Trinity or not, it should not take away from the command of Christ in Love one another. Many a great divide amongst men has come from theological sparring.

That's the thing. What happened at Nicea was not "sparring". The side of the bureaucratic elite of the "official" church, approved by the Pontiff (at this time, still a pagan) never actually engaged in debate with the so-called followers of Arius. (they were actually only the people who believed in the idea of freedom of thought) It was a set-up from the get-go, and once they had their little sealed and signed document to throw in people's faces they went on a murder spree that lasted hundreds of years. All of the books of Arius were destroyed and anyone caught with them were executed, so that the only way to get an idea of what the man believed can only be understood in a slanted view from the writings of his attackers.
We would not have this nice little doctrine of the trinity as we know it today without much bloodshed and war.
Isn't there a saying, something like "defy the devil"? Thinking and telling the truth brings out the ire of the evil forces. So, should we skulk about in the shadows, afraid to speak our mind or take the attitude of, "the devil be damned!" I say, damn the devil and Satan and may God put and end to his doctrines of evil and his taking the Honor and glory away from Christ and wrapping it like a cloak about them and claiming to be equal to God and Christ on Earth and the Head of the Church and having all Dominion over the planet! Those who do not condemn the anti-christ and think it is better to just let it be are no followers of Jesus and where is your cross and where is your blood that you are ready to have spilled out for the name of Jesus?

Originally posted by HIFIGUY
Whether one understands the Trinity or not, it should not take away from the command of Christ in Love one another. Many a great divide amongst men has come from theological sparring.

i agree, however, the refusal to worship god in truth tells you something about their motive.

john 4:[23] But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.[24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

its actually a very serious thing to profess faith in god and yet live and act an think contrary to what the bible is saying

Ti 1:16 - They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every god work.

yes, we should love everyone, but that doesnt mean that everyone is a ¨brother¨

Originally posted by miriam0566
its actually a very serious thing to profess faith in god and yet live and act an think contrary to what the bible is saying

Ti 1:16 - They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every god work.

yes, we should love everyone, but that doesnt mean that everyone is a ¨brother¨

reply to post by miriam0566


Is not water found in 3 forms? Ice, Liquid and Gas? yet all are water.

In spirit, and in deed, in heart, and in faith....One cannot be without the other.

How is it that one can have faith witout deeds?

Jesus addresses this issue...

John 14:10-30 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. [11] Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. [12] I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing.

Peace


[edit on 28-3-2009 by HIFIGUY]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


hello

read chapter 18

And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

this is the first born, pre determined a bodily birth on earth

david

To further comment on the same Blue Jay post as Drevill just referenced:

15Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:

Nothing was created that was not created through the word.
The word was god and was the creator.
When did the word become a creature and was born?
When the word became flesh and was born of Mary as the child, Jesus, who was to be called the Son of God.
The word existed before any created thing and when the word became a creature, he could be called the first-born. Meaning he was born a creature and was not directly created by the hand of God, like Adam would have been, as a creature.
I do not find it acceptable to substitute pre-existence, in the place of being god.
Jesus pre-existed as god, not another being also known as Jesus.


[edit on 28-3-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


This is where the divergence of theology really comes into play, the only way trinitarians can explain this scripture is by saying, "that is talking about his earthly birth, that is how he is firstborn."

To me that is twisting a scripture to support dogma. Jesus birth on earth is in no way a firstborn of ALL creation, as the entire universe was already created physical and spiritual. Intellectual honesty needs to be developed by anybody who reads this verse, and still thinks otherwise. Especially when you consider the next verse

Colossians 1 15&16

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him.

Verse 16 sets the context of the time line.

1)Jesus is directly created by God, & time begins.
2)The rest of the universe and it's beings are created by Jesus, according to the purpose and power God gave him.

Furthermore the bible talks about 2 live gods that are not Almighty God in the bible.

2 Corinthians 4 verse 4
(AB)
4For the god of this world has blinded the unbelievers' minds [that they should not discern the truth], preventing them from seeing the illuminating light of the Gospel of the glory of Christ (the Messiah), Who is the Image and Likeness of God.

Notice small "g" for "the god of this world" then big "G" the Almighty God.
We know this blinding is done by Satan who has enough power that he is called a god in the bible.

Then go to John 1 verse 18
(NWT)
18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

Again we have big a "G" and little "g", there can only be one only-begotten god and some bibles even say son.

(God's Word)
No one has ever seen God. God's only Son, the one who is closest to the Father's heart, has made him known.

(KJV)
No man hath seen God at any time, the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

These scriptures lead us to the point where we understand there are other live gods, because of the power that they have, one is Satan, and one is Jesus.

Both are different from the the Almighty God.

A good question too is who is the "Archangel"? Does he not lead all the angels against Satan? Isn't this Angel alone the one that has the power needed to jail a god? Wouldn't that make him have god powers too?

Read Jude 9, Revelation 12 verses 7-9 and also Revelation 20 verses 20 1-3

Thus Michael the Archangel is Jesus Christ.
And thus it is obvious he can't be The Almighty God

Being raised a Seventh Day Adventist, I was taught something remarkably similar to what the Jehovah's Witnesses teach.(including the archangel Michael thing)
I never thought much about it until I was probably 30 years old and realized how heretical what I believed was, from the outlook of the "orthodox" people.
I was taught the same sort of thing you are saying, so I am not trying to support some sort of dogma and I definitely do not want to support the trinity which I consider the invention of the anti-christ.
It all sounds pretty reasonable (the JW and SDA doctrines of Christ) but the more I look into it the less I think the Bible supports it.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
It all sounds pretty reasonable (the JW and SDA doctrines of Christ) but the more I look into it the less I think the Bible supports it.

why do you feel that way?

reply to post by miriam0566

A for instance would be a SDA writer that I was reading, in a book on Revelation, goes right into this issue of how Jesus is telling John about how he is the beginning and the end.
It seemed like what appears to be the logical progression of this idea of Jesus somehow being a distinct separate personality going around manifesting himself in an apparently bodily sort of way,(I am talking about before the Nativity) leads to thinking that Jesus must actually be Jehovah himself. I had to wonder if he was just carrying the concept too far or is there something fundamentally wrong with it, in the first place.
That got me to wondering and trying to see if the verses that are supposed to support it, really do. Like I said in an earlier post on the other thread, Paul is going into a sort of rhetorical speech and can not be taken in a strictly literal way so any arguments based on it are flimsy, in the extreme.


[edit on 28-3-2009 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by jmdewey60


Actually I am finding that for me it's just the opposite, when I have these types of conversions it just reaffirms my faith that what I believe about God & Jesus is correct.

When you are forced to defend your faith with scripture, it bolsters your faith up, and you come to understand you just aren't parroting stuff you learned early in life, but you have checked it out from every angle making sure what you believe is the the truth from the bible. When I was a teen I was honestly too lazy to look into the Greek and Hebrew of the bible, if it made logical sense to me I never pursued it. Later on in life though I needed to double check what I had been told and learned when I was much younger.

Because the Trinity was explain with "it's a mystery" I couldn't accept that type of a dogma cop out.

I also have a much better understanding of why Trinitarians or those that believe in a divine duality believe what they do.

Reminds me of Acts 17 verse 11
11 And the people of Berea were more open-minded than those in Thessalonica, and they listened eagerly to Paul’s message. They searched the Scriptures day after day to see if Paul and Silas were teaching the truth.

Every christan needs to follow the example of the 1st century Berean christians.

"For your Maker is your husband—
the LORD Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
he is called the God of all the earth." Isaiah 54:5

How do you guys explain this? If your Maker is your husband and Jesus is the bridegroom what does this tell you?

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

God redeemed Israel from the slavery of Egypt and bound Himself to her with a covenant.
Christ is the mediator of the new covenant in his own blood. He will appear suddenly as a bridegroom to whisk us away to the New Jerusalem for the marriage feast of the Lamb and he will at that time be our God.

Wow! How did i miss this thread. I tried to read through the whole thing. Some really fantastic posts and reasonable exchanges. The depth of understanding is impressive and it was hard to deny simple logic though some debating was cyclical and too much for me. But i grow tired. Lets just get the show on the road(sorry for my impatience heavenly father)

I just look forward to the day when all will know with out a shadow of doubt the truth of this universal debate on Gods sovereignty/existence and all mankind will be free from the mass confusion propagated by the forces of evil.

its my faith that day is coming
www.biblegateway.com...:21-23,38:23;&version=9;

carry on brave solders.....one day you can put down your sword. At which time i think some champagne is in order.

i now return you to your regular broadcast


[edit on 29-3-2009 by The Great Day]

reply to post by Blue_Jay33


Now please explain to me how Michael is Jesus? It makes no sense to me. I do know that Melzchedek (spelling?) the high priest in which Abraham tithed to was Jesus as the Word of God. Michael was one of 4 original archangels. Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, and Lucifer. Obviously, we know what happened to Lucifer (morningstar, light of the world). Jesus took the roll of the Morning Star and Light of the World as Lucifer gave it up after rebelling with God. Now please explain to me how Michael is Jesus Christ.

I think the answer to that is there is one angelic being who is basically assigned to the Nation of Israel and also happens to be the most powerful. On top of that, he can martial a host of angels to back him up. So you have the Lord of Hosts and is not too big a jump to see how it could be applied to Michael. This is more of a suggestion than a dogma in my church and is not overly emphasized. Also, now that I think about it, Jesus when he was arrested, said he could call on an army of angels. Why not, if he was Michael and an archangel? I am not going to worry about it too much and God can do whatever He wants. As for speculation, at this moment, I would have to be rather negative towards the notion.

reply to post by Locoman8


Ahh now we get into the very deepest things of God's word. The truth is there is only one Archangel or Chief of the angels. And he alone is assigned by God to lead all the Seraphs and Cherubs and the regular angels. And only he has the power to resurrect on a massive scale, illustrated and prefigured by Jesus resurrections when he was on earth.

The answer is found in a scripture most people never think about when they read it, they are so focused on the rapture they miss it altogether.

1 Thessalonians 4 13-17
The Hope of the Resurrection

13 And now, dear brothers and sisters, we want you to know what will happen to the believers who have died so you will not grieve like people who have no hope. 14 For since we believe that Jesus died and was raised to life again, we also believe that when Jesus returns, God will bring back with him the believers who have died.
15 We tell you this directly from the Lord: We who are still living when the Lord returns will not meet him ahead of those who have died. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a commanding shout, with the voice of the archangel , and with the trumpet call of God. First, the Christians who have died will rise from their graves. 17 Then, together with them, we who are still alive and remain on the earth will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Then we will be with the Lord forever.

Jesus voice is the archangels voice, and he is performing a massive resurrection at this point, nobody has been given that level of power but Jesus.

Jude 9
Even the archangel Michael, when he argued with the devil and fought over the body of Moses, did not dare to bring a slanderous accusation against him. Instead, he said, "May the Lord rebuke you!"

Revelations 12 verses 7-9
7Then war broke out in heaven; Michael and his angels went forth to battle with the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought.
8But they were defeated, and there was no room found for them in heaven any longer.
9And the huge dragon was cast down and out--that age-old serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, he who is the seducer (deceiver) of all humanity the world over; he was forced out and down to the earth, and his angels were flung out along with him.

Revelation 20 verse 1-3
1THEN I saw an angel descending from heaven; he was holding the key of the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and a great chain was in his hand.
2And he gripped and overpowered the dragon, that old serpent [of primeval times], who is the devil and Satan, and [securely] bound him for a thousand years.
3Then he hurled him into the Abyss (the bottomless pit) and closed it and sealed it above him, so that he should no longer lead astray and deceive and seduce the nations until the thousand years were at an end. After that he must be liberated for a short time.

This Angel is the same Angel that lead the battle against Satan earlier, only he(Michael) has the power to bind the devil.

Michael name (Mikhael) means "Who Is Like God" in Hebrew a most fitting name for God's only begotten son.

And thus once again the trinity is exposed as false, but from a much different angle this time.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Also, now that I think about it, Jesus when he was arrested, said he could call on an army of angels. Why not, if he was Michael and an archangel?

This is an awesome point because he references a request for 12 Legions of angels. That is a lot of angels under his command, that would be coming if he ordered them to do so. And massive overkill at that, remember what one angel did to an entire army in one night, when it fought for the nation of Israel.

But he was trying to make a point to people who were thinking earthly type thoughts, they knew a Roman General with 12 Legions under his command would be a considered a great leader with an unstoppable army in the 1st century, he was letting them know, he was letting them do this, he could stop them at any moment, he was in control not them, their control was an illusion of power.

Originally posted by Locoman8
reply to post by Blue_Jay33

 

Now please explain to me how Michael is Jesus? It makes no sense to me. I do know that Melzchedek (spelling?) the high priest in which Abraham tithed to was Jesus as the Word of God. Michael was one of 4 original archangels. Gabriel, Michael, Raphael, and Lucifer. Obviously, we know what happened to Lucifer (morningstar, light of the world). Jesus took the roll of the Morning Star and Light of the World as Lucifer gave it up after rebelling with God. Now please explain to me how Michael is Jesus Christ.

blue explained it really well, but i just wanted to add a few points.

first you mention there being 4, but the bible never says that. in fact only micheal is is referred to as a archangel. not only ¨a¨, but ¨the¨ denoting only one.

1 thes 4:[16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

jude [9] Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

for gabriel, nowhere does it specify his rank. since he was a messenger, more than likely he was an angel.

raphael is from apocryphal writings, but even then he makes no claim to the title of ¨archangel¨

tobit 12:[15] I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One.

lucifer, locoman, you should know better

¨lucifer¨ is a mistranslation. the passage itself is talking about the babylonian king, it describes him as the god he was suppose to be incarnate.

if by lucifer you mean satan, there is nothing mentioned of his rank other than he is a powerful angel.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

the major link between micheal and jesus which bluejay already touched on is that they both lead armies.

rev 12:7 ¨micheal and his angels¨

same book describes jesus as the leader of the heavenly army too. (rev 19:14-16)

there are several references to lord jesus with his angels )2 thess 1:7, matt 16:27, 24:31, 1 peter 3:22)

so, if micheal and jesus were 2 separate people, this might imply that there are 2 armies.

likely ¨micheal¨ is jesus´ other name. (gen 49:1,2 and matt 10:2)

reply to post by miriam0566


Michael may be the only angel mentioned as an archangel but reguardless of that, there is believed to be at least 7 archangels and the three highest ranking archangels which were Michael, Gabriel, and Raphael. I understand Raphael being from the Apocryphal books, which were part of the original King James bible of 1611 but understand that men chose what books to keep and take away from the bible. The Greek Jews used the old testament apocrypha as canonical books.

Maybe I misunderstood the place of Lucifer in the bible but my understanding is that He was an angel of the highest ranks but tried to overtake the throne of God. Michael fought him and cast him down to earth and from that day forth, he was known as Satan which means "great deciever." Now as far as the meaning of Michael being "Who is equal to God?", notice that there's a question mark at the end of this meaning. His name literaly is a question asking, "who is like God?" Now take the meaning of Gabriel, "Man of God" or "Might of God". He is the herald of the mysteries of God, especially the Incarnation of God and all other mysteries related to it. So we have Michael who's name asks who can be like God, and Gabriel which is the Might of God. Now the controversial Raphael who's name means, "God's healing" or "God the Healer" (Tobit 3:17, 12:15). So now we have a question by Michael, "Who is like God?", and Gabriel which is the "Might of God" and Raphael who is "God the Healer". If you take these names and their meanings, add Lucifer just for the fact that he was refered to as an angel of the highest ranks and his name meaning "light of God" or "Morning Star" we will see that the Archangel Michael is the question asking "Who is like God?" The answer is in the other "archangels" which are God's Might, God's Healing, and God's Light. Don't just assume that Michael is Jesus because of a shout of an archangel and similarities with leading armies. They fit together in a sense but Jesus is identified in the bible plain and clear as the Word of God, Son of God, Son of Man, etc. Jesus has power over all the angels, that doesn't mean He is an angel. Archangels are angels of the highest rank and though Michael is the only one mentioned as an archangel, the fact that there are other angels of the highest ranks, like your assumption of Michael being Jesus, I would have to assume as most christians do, that at the least Gabriel was an archangel.

I do find it unusual that Gabriel's name means "Might of God" when he is more of a revealer or messenger in the bible. Maybe that's just his roll with humans. Who knows? I also heard something that Cherub angels and archangels were the same and that there are only four cherubs mentioned in the bible. Any comment on that?