is the trinity a biblical doctrine?

Hello! I am one of Jehovah's Witnesses. I put a video together that I would like to share about a "central doctrine" of the christian faith. This is a VERY touchy subject, so I'm sure there will be a lot of people that will say bad things about my religion or about the JW's, and that's OK, it's the risk I take for posting this video on this site. But I'm also sure that honest truth seekers will learn a little something at least. Thanks for watching!

I tried posting the videos, but I guess I'm not doing it correctly, so I'll give you the links

part 1 of 2

part 2 of 2


[edit on 19-3-2009 by holywar]

Do you need some help on how to post a youtube video?

You just highlight past the equal sign in the youtube url, then paste it in the link above!

Of course you can't see that link above until you are typing the post or editing it!

[edit on 19-3-2009 by interestedalways]

Originally posted by interestedalways
Do you need some help on how to post a youtube video?

You just highlight past the equal sign in the youtube url, then paste it in the link above!

Of course you can't see that link above until you are typing the post or editing it!

[edit on 19-3-2009 by interestedalways]

THANKS! I just provided the links

reply to post by holywar


There are numerous Biblical verses that show the Trinity as you phrased it. Father/Son/Holy Spirit are one...

I didn't watch your videos so I don't know what they said or how this lines up with what you think, I answered the question.

reply to post by theindependentjournal


Depending on what your beleifs are, the Trinity can mean a number of things.
Im not sure of evry one of themand im sure somebody here will chime in with countless versions of them, but one is Earth, Fire, Water, and all sorts of variations in between.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
reply to post by holywar

 

There are numerous Biblical verses that show the Trinity as you phrased it. Father/Son/Holy Spirit are one...

I didn't watch your videos so I don't know what they said or how this lines up with what you think, I answered the question.

the ONLY text I know of that EXPLICITLY says that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are "ONE", is at 1 John 5:7 in the King James Version.

It is also a Scholarly known FACT that this text is a forgery, not found in the early Greek manuscripts, and thus almost all other Bible translations DO NOT include that text. It appears that the so called "correctors" of the word decided to add that text during the many early councils to support this false doctrine.

go to Bible Gateway where you can compare different translations.

reply to post by holywar


I'm having a minor problem with this, as most of the christians (at least in here) don't really worship nor the trinity or the holy spirit as a 'god'. Yes, Jesus is often prayed, as it was said by himself (Jesus) that the way to the God and His kingdom goes thru him.. but as you said yourself in your video, the holy spirit is just an acting force laid and controlled by God, nothing more - but nothing less either. I don't think lutherans/protestants worship the holy spirit in a way catholic people worship Virgin Mary/saints or similar.. (on the other hand, some catholic people don't worship saints or Holy Mother either..)

So I'd like to know your stand on this.. what do you mean by worship and do you prefer not praying in the name of Jesus.. as in, you need to 'believe' that Jesus is son of God, but you need to pray directly to God only.. your video fails to make the point, at least to me?

(Nice music on the videos btw.. sounds a bit 'oriental' in the end part, what music did you use?)

reply to post by PilgriMage


Thank you for watching the videos!

Jesus taught his followers to pray to “our Father in the heavens.” (Matthew 6:9) Our prayers, then, must be directed only to Jehovah God. However, Jehovah requires that we acknowledge the position of his only-begotten Son, Jesus Christ. Jesus was sent to the earth to serve as a ransom to redeem us from sin and death. (John 3:16; Romans 5:12) He is the appointed High Priest and Judge. (John 5:22; Hebrews 6:20) Hence, the Scriptures direct us to offer our prayers through Jesus. He himself said: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” (John 14:6) For our prayers to be heard, we must pray ONLY to Jehovah THROUGH his Son.

Some of the music I used is from the "Gladiator" movie sound track

BTW - According to the Athanasian Creed, there are three divine Persons (the Father, the Son, the Holy Ghost), each said to be eternal, each said to be almighty, none greater or less than another, each said to be God, and yet together being but one God. Other statements of the dogma emphasize that these three “Persons” are not separate and distinct individuals but are three modes in which the divine essence exists. Thus some Trinitarians emphasize their belief that Jesus Christ is God, or that Jesus and the Holy Ghost are Jehovah.

"the Father and I are one".....

"I AM"

As a JW, I would suggest that you research the history and translation of your watchtower bible......Its translations of the greek are VERY weak and misleading.

I thought that was "made up" and considered doctrine at the Council of Nicaea, where it was also infused with other characteristics of the Roman cult of "Mithra."

en.wikipedia.org...

This seems to have been a point at which the definitions of heresies and doctrine were starting to solidify amongst the various christian churches at the time. Many of these churches had completely disparate views on the divinity of Christ and many other issues.

[edit on 02/21/09 by daeoeste]

I like to think of the trinity as we are all "One." Jesus talked about that others will be performing miracles greater than himself...hmmm that means we are all sons of god.

The Kingdom of Heaven is within you. -Jesus

reply to post by holywar


Look at Hebrews 2:14 and John 1:1, then I shall return with more.

Isn't Earth wind and fire a band? I thought that one was Earth Water Air and Fire??? The Quadrany

EDIT - Colossians 1:14-17

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:



[edit on 3/19/2009 by theindependentjournal]

Originally posted by edsinger
"the Father and I are one....

jesus himself clarifies this statement when the jews get ready to stone him because they reached the same conclusion trinitarians did.

¨one¨ in this context means ¨united in one purpose¨

same way a married couple will become ¨one¨ flesh

"I AM"

there is nothing in this passage grammatically to suggest that this should be translated ¨i am¨ or even to suggest that jesus was referring to exodus 3:14

the literal translation would be ¨I have been¨

the connection between the 2 verses is a fairytale.

Originally posted by theindependentjournal
Look at Hebrews 2:14

verse 10 - ¨for whom are all things, and by whom are all things¨

we see jesus´role as master worker as mentioned by isaiah.

verse 14 - ¨through death¨

GOD cannot die (1 tim 1:17)

verse 18 - ¨For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.¨

GOD cannot be tempted. (james 1:13)

and John 1:1, then I shall return with more.

this scripture is literally translated ¨he was A god¨

even greek orthodox who believe in the trinity dont use this scripture to support it.

Colossians 1:14-17

14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins: 15 Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: 16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:

verse 15 blatantly shows that jesus was created. ¨firstborn of every creature¨. it is impossible to reconcile GOD´s eternal nature with this passage.

yes all things were created by jesus. the same way an architect will hire a builder.

[edit on 20-3-2009 by miriam0566]

I believe trinity, means a man a woman and one child! (not more)

Imagine if the church did not conveniently remove the female from this equation(and replace it with a ghost), life would not be a business. Violence would be tempered, women would not be subjected to so much humiliation, poverty, rape...

Perversion, homosexuality and over population would not exist! The family unit would function perfectly!

When God created woman, He didn't create an inferior being, He created what He delights to call "the glory of man."(1 Cor. 11:7)


I believe the Vatican will be reduced to smithereens, shameful liars and theifs, all the riches they have surrounded themselves with could feed all the starving on this planet! Blatant Hypocrites




[edit on 20-3-2009 by HulaAnglers]

Originally posted by edsinger
"the Father and I are one".....

"I AM"

As a JW, I would suggest that you research the history and translation of your watchtower bible......Its translations of the greek are VERY weak and misleading.

Sorry mate, that is an incorrect statement

Subject: Jeopardy Game Show Question. Recently on Jeopardy,one of the answers was "It's the most accurate translation of the Holy Scriptures?" No one got the correct question, so Alex Trebek said "What is the; New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures, printed by the Watchtower Bible & Tract Society." The basis for that answer is in the following book. Book: "TRUTH IN TRANSLATION: ACCURACY AND BIAS IN ENGLISH TRANSLATIONS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT" Author: Jason David BeDuhn is the Associate Professor of Religious Studies at Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff. He holds a B.A. in Religious Studies from the University of Illinois, Urbana, an M.T.S. in New Testament and Christian Origins form Harvard Divinity School, and a Ph.D. in Comparative Study of Religions form Indiana University, Bloomington The Nine English Translation.

This is what that book even says on John 1:1, one of the scriptures that is erroneously used to support the trinity

A discussion of John 1:1: "Surprisingly, only one, the NW, adheres to the literal meaning of the Greek, and translates "a god." "Translators of the KJV, NRSV, NIV, NAB, NASB, AB, TEV and LB all approached the text at John 1:1 already believing certain things about the Word... and made sure that the translations came out in accordance with their beliefs. ... Ironically, some of these same scholars are quick to charge the NW translation with "doctrinal bias" for translating the verse literally, free of KJV influence, following the sense of the Greek. It may very well be that the NW translators came to the task of translating John 1:1 with as much bias as the other translators did. It just so happens that their bias corresponds in this case to a more accurate translation of the Greek" "Some early Christians maintained their monotheism by believing that the one God simply took on a human form and came to earth -- in effect, God the Father was born and crucified as Jesus. They are entitled to their belief, but it cannot be derived legitimately from the Gospel according to John." "John himself has not formulated a Trinity concept in his Gospel." "All that we can ask is that a translation be an accurate starting point for exposition and interpretation. Only the NW achieves that, as provocative as it sounds to the modern reader. The other translations cut off the exploration of the verse's meaning before it has even begun."

Further commenting on this and backing this up, is a Greek speaking person from Greece.

"I am Greek, I have been raised in Greece, I have studied Classical Greek for two years in high school (Classical Greek is much more complicated than koine, or Common Greek) and I have been studding the original Greek text of the Bible for about 10 years. Having this background, I responsibly say that this book presents quite right, well documented and reliable linguistic information. Yes, its writer must be considered adequate as regards his knowledge of the Biblical Greek. So, this book sheds plenty of light about subjects of which the common English reader has no idea. For example: English readers often claim that NW is false in John 1:1. Trinitarians in Greece have never used this specific verse to claim that the New World Translation (NW) is wrong, since all the Orthodox versions read actually the same with the Greek version of the NW. And this happens because the wording of this verse is very clear for the Greek reader, and there is no place for debate. I am sorry to say this, but for a Greek it is ridiculous to debate on John 1:1. Of course, many will be disappointed by BeDunh because he proves that many of the famous Bible versions are inaccurate and mislead their readers. But face the facts! What matters is not what translators say but what Bible says!"- Basileios Tsialas (Athens,Greece)

The Trinity is part of the Apostasy Jesus foretold would happen.

It was cemented with finality at
the First Council of Nicaea that was convened in Nicaea in Bithynia (present-day İznik in Turkey) by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in 325 CE. The Council was historically significant as the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom.

The agenda of the synod were:
1. The Arian question regarding the relationship between God the Father and Jesus; i.e. are the Father and Son one in purpose only or also one in being
2. The date of celebration of the Paschal/Easter observation
3. The Meletian schism;
4. The validity of baptism by heretics;
5. The status of the lapsed in the persecution under Licinius.

See link en.wikipedia.org...

And I was very surprised to see that the Council of Nicaea made the top list of conspiracies at ATS, the amount of collective knowledge at ATS is the best anywhere on the internet.
Check it out - www.abovetopsecret.com...
(Listed tenth from the bottom.)

So my question to all sincere truth seeking Christians is, are you going to let a bunch of men from 325 CE decide this for you? Or are you going to make up your own mind and choice on this doctrine.

It's important
John 4:24 (Amplified Bible)
24God is a Spirit (a spiritual Being) and those who worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth (reality).





[edit on 20-3-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 20-3-2009 by Blue_Jay33]

[edit on 20-3-2009 by Blue_Jay33]