I know this is a very minority opinion around here but...

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Proof? Read it yourself, that's why your here right?

I can't believe people don't believe in a NWO when they are on this site.


Then, read more.

NEWSFLASH- i have a sneaking suspicion that certain members/mods are here to discredit the NWO, 911, JFK and any number of other true conspiracies.
It is quite apparent from the biased views, the intentional spreading of disinformation, and the harrasment of individuals that hold certain beliefs, that there is indeed an agenda here at ATS.
Before you ask, i have no proof, only speculation.

Originally posted by aware
NEWSFLASH- i have a sneaking suspicion that certain members/mods are here to discredit the NWO, 911, JFK and any number of other true conspiracies.It is quite apparent from the biased views, the intentional spreading of disinformation, and the harrasment of individuals that hold certain beliefs, that there is indeed an agenda here at ATS.
Before you ask, i have no proof, only speculation.

Spreading misinformation and harrasment? Puh-lease. I have a pretty open mind and just because I do not agree with your belief does not mean I am out to get you.

And while I can only speak for myself, I would imagine that most other members here have the same intentions and goals as me. ie. discussion and truth.

Are your beliefs so fragile that they cannot stand some debate and critical thinking?

.

Originally posted by Illmatic67
Proof? Read it yourself, that's why your here right?

I'm here to read and discuss, not believe everything that someone says.

I can't believe people don't believe in a NWO when they are on this site.

I get this alot. "You don't believe in every conspracy here, so why are you here in the first place!"

Not only that but many current events are linked in some way or another to the NWO.

Prove it.

Why don't you read about the Congress of Vienna and how the Illuminati was completely tore down and shut down, for a while of course.

I don't beliee everything I read. Neither should you.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.
1)It is not my responsibiltiy to prove your argument. If you want someone to beleive in the NWO (or whatever), it is soley your responsibility to provide the evidence.
2) It is impossible to prove a negative. So saying "If you can't disprove the Illuminati, it must be real" is of no value at all. I can't disprove there are invisible elves running around, but that is not a reason to beleive in them.
3) I am here to read and discuss. So are most other people. Just because I don't believe in your pet conspiracy does not mean I should not be here. If you can't handle someone diagreeing with you, that may be a sign you should not be on a public forum. If all you want is yes men, start a newsgroup and kick out any dissenters.

What would constitute proof, in your opinion? There have been many public proclamations made by prestigious and credible people, both for and opposed to the NWO and shadow government. If verification from the horse's mouth isn't considered valid evidence, what would? Is it possible to present a form of evidence you would believe (short of the NWO coming to fruition)?

Originally posted by aware
NEWSFLASH- i have a sneaking suspicion that certain members/mods are here to discredit the NWO, 911, JFK and any number of other true conspiracies.
It is quite apparent from the biased views, the intentional spreading of disinformation, and the harrasment of individuals that hold certain beliefs, that there is indeed an agenda here at ATS.
Before you ask, i have no proof, only speculation.

No way dude. I haven't been here that long but I can guess that this group was created in part so that those who believed in the kinds of topics discussed here would have a place where they could come together after living their daily 3-D lives feeling like fish out of water, or worse, aliens from another planet (no pun intended, sometimes this is exactly how I DO feel when I look around out there, sometimes I feel like there is NO way I belong on THIS planet).

I am so glad I started really getting into this site because it's really nice to know that other people out there have questions too, and that I'm not surrounded by Pod People everywhere I turn. This I think was another reason ATS was created.

Originally posted by aware
NEWSFLASH- i have a sneaking suspicion that certain members/mods are here to discredit the NWO, 911, JFK and any number of other true conspiracies.
It is quite apparent from the biased views, the intentional spreading of disinformation, and the harrasment of individuals that hold certain beliefs, that there is indeed an agenda here at ATS.
Before you ask, i have no proof, only speculation.

No offense, but I think you're #ing paranoid
And before you ask, yes, I have proof. It's about three lines up

jezebel

What would I accept as proof?

Well, first off, you would need to define which NWO we're talking about, since it comes in many flavors, depending on which conspiracy you subscribe to.

But to take one of the more popular theories-

The Illuminati.

Show me evidence they even exist today. Show me convincing evidence they exist today. Show me reliable evidence they exist today. Show me they are more than a 300 year old group that pretty much disbanded themselves two centuries ago.


[Edited on 4-25-2004 by Esoterica]

Originally posted by Esoterica
The Illuminati.

Show me evidence they even exist today. Show me convincing evidence they exist today. Show me reliable evidence they exist today. Show me they are more than a 300 year old group that pretty much disbanded themselves two centuries ago.
[Edited on 4-25-2004 by Esoterica]

Agreed.

The Illuminati strikes me more as a catch-phrase than an actual modern-day reality. Any proof of them would be highly appreciated.

~Face

Illuminati - deep rift that has been existed between science and religion. A bunch of outspoken surviving scientists. They were murdered by the church for describing scientiffic facts. For some reason, science and religion dont go all too well. I heard somewhere that back in the 1500's a group of men who were actual founding members fought back against the catholic church, then most of italys scientist, mathematicians and astronomers began meeting secretly to share their concerns about the churches ''inaccurate'' teachings.

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
Illuminati - deep rift that has been existed between science and religion. A bunch of outspoken surviving scientists. They were murdered by the church for describing scientiffic facts. For some reason, science and religion dont go all too well. I heard somewhere that back in the 1500's a group of men who were actual founding members fought back against the catholic church, then most of italys scientist, mathematicians and astronomers began meeting secretly to share their concerns about the churches ''inaccurate'' teachings.

That's not evidence, though, just words on a computer monitor.

Originally posted by jezebel
If verification from the horse's mouth isn't considered valid evidence, what would? Is it possible to present a form of evidence you would believe (short of the NWO coming to fruition)?

What horse are you talking about?
The only mention of NWO I have ever heard is Bush Sr's NWO phrase in a speech almost 15 years ago.

Show us the facts that have convinced you that there is a NWO.
If you are convinced, then there must be some solid proof behind your belief that led you to your conclusion?

Share it.

Originally posted by Facefirst
What horse are you talking about?
The only mention of NWO I have ever heard is Bush Sr's NWO phrase in a speech almost 15 years ago.

Show us the facts that have convinced you that there is a NWO.
If you are convinced, then there must be some solid proof behind your belief that led you to your conclusion?

Share it.

Here are some quotes from a few a the "horses":

"This present window of opportunity, during which a truly peaceful and interdependent world order might be built, will not be open for too long - We are on the verge of a global transformation. All we need is the right major crisis and the nations will accept the New World Order." - David Rockefeller Sept. 23, 1994

"Today, America would be outraged if U.N. troops entered Los Angeles to restore order. Tomorrow they will be grateful! This is especially true if they were told that there were an outside threat from beyond, whether real or promulgated, that threatened our very existence. It is then that all peoples of the world will plead to deliver them from this evil. The one thing every man fears is the unknown. When presented with this scenario, individual rights will be willingly relinquished for the guarantee of their well-being granted to them by the World Government."
Dr. Henry Kissinger, Bilderberger Conference, Evians, France, 1991

"The drive of the Rockefellers and their allies is to create a one-world government combining supercapitalism and Communism under the same tent, all under their control.... Do I mean conspiracy? Yes I do. I am convinced there is such a plot, international in scope, generations old in planning, and incredibly evil in intent."
Congressman Larry P. McDonald, 1976, killed in the Korean Airlines 747 that was shot down by the Soviets

"We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries."
David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission, in an address to a meeting of The Trilateral Commission, in June, 1991

"We shall have world government whether or not you like it, by conquest or consent."
Statement by Council on Foreign Relations (CFR) member James Warburg to The Senate Foreign Relations Committee on February 17th, l950

"Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the Field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it."
Woodrow Wilson,The New Freedom (1913)

"From the days of Sparticus, Wieskhopf, Karl Marx, Trotsky, Rosa Luxemberg, and Emma Goldman, this world conspiracy has been steadily growing. This conspiracy played a definite recognizable role in the tragedy of the French revolution. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century. And now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their head and have become the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."
Winston Churchill, stated to the London Press, in l922

"The real truth of the matter is, as you and I know, that a financial element in the larger centers has owned the Government ever since the days of Andrew Jackson."
A letter written by FDR to Colonel House, November 21st, l933

"The Council on Foreign Relations is "the establishment." Not only does it have influence and power in key decision-making positions at the highest levels of government to apply pressure from above, but it also announces and uses individuals and groups to bring pressure from below, to justify the high level decisions for converting the U.S. from a sovereign Constitutional Republic into a servile member state of a one-world dictatorship."
Former Congressman John Rarick 1971

"How to Achieve The New World Order"
Title of book excerpt by Henry Kissinger, in Time magazine (March 1994)

"The term Internationalism has been popularized in recent years to cover an interlocking financial, political, and economic world force for the purpose of establishing a World Government. Today Internationalism is heralded from pulpit and platform as a 'League of Nations' or a 'Federated Union' to which the United States must surrender a definite part of its National Sovereignty. The World Government plan is being advocated under such alluring names as the 'New International Order,' 'The New World Order,' 'World Union Now,' 'World Commonwealth of Nations,' 'World Community,' etc. All the terms have the same objective; however, the line of approach may be religious or political according to the taste or training of the individual."

Excerpt from A Memorial to be Addressed to the House of Bishops and the House of Clerical and Lay Deputies of the Protestant Episcopal Church in General Convention (October 1940)

This is just a sampling of the huge number of quotes by respected individuals in the last 100 years. They can't all be wrong or liars.

This is just a sampling of the huge number of quotes by respected individuals in the last 100 years. They can't all be wrong or liars.

They most certainly can, considering that they keep talking about the NWO, but it's never actually happened yet. Cryptic references to 'something' are not very convincing.

[Edited on 4-26-2004 by Esoterica]

why wouldnt anyone ever cross the fact that the nwo may exist in their puny small sized mental capacity....look at rare events....look at future events.....were leading to the new world order....people are dying everyday now....like seconds....for their religion....

Originally posted by Esoterica

This is just a sampling of the huge number of quotes by respected individuals in the last 100 years. They can't all be wrong or liars.

They most certainly can, considering that they keep talking about the NWO, but it's never actually happened yet. Cryptic references to 'something' are not very convincing.

[Edited on 4-26-2004 by Esoterica]

So how long do you think it should take to covertly supplant the independent nations of the world with a one-world government? Do you think people would have accepted it in 1920? 1950? Or would it make more sense to slowly acclimate everyone to the idea over a long period of time so that the conversion would be simple and smooth?

Major changes in countries happen one of 2 ways: through subversion and coercion or through violent revolution. We already know how the latter works, since that is how the US came to be. We also have some idea of how the former works, since that is how Germany came to be under the control of Hitler. Now consider how much more time and planning and manipulation it would have taken Hitler to trick the whole world into accepting a one world government.

One more thought, the world is already under the control of a central power. The World Bank owns almost every developing country, and it does own every developed country, including the US, in the world. Since money is what makes the world go round, and people would rather have money than be free, the World Bank has the power to call the shots, whether we want to admit it or not.

Originally posted by topsecretombomb
why wouldnt anyone ever cross the fact that the nwo may exist in their puny small sized mental capacity....

well my dear because there are those out there who either dont want to believe it or dont care to research it and then there are those who do everything they can to suppress the truth even from the mouths of those who are planning it ...no matter how much info you throw at them they will always say....."prove it!!"...The proof they would want would be to arrange a meeting between them and Kissinger...Rockefeler....Rothchilds and any other number of the global elite and they would have to sit down with said non believer...aka sometimes disinfo agent and they would all have to say in a grand chorus ...."YES THERE IS A NEW WORLD ORDER"
Then they might believe.

[Edited on 26-4-2004 by watcheroftheskies]

The new world order is proven. It is well known and it is even shown on our currency. What would be the point of haveing New World Order on a dollar bill if it didn't mean anything?

Originally posted by Zuzubar
The new world order is proven. It is well known and it is even shown on our currency. What would be the point of haveing New World Order on a dollar bill if it didn't mean anything?

THE New World Order is quite different from A New World Order.

why wouldnt anyone ever cross the fact that the nwo may exist in their puny small sized mental capacity....look at rare events....look at future events.....were leading to the new world order....people are dying everyday now....like seconds....for their religion....

Holy #! People are dying! Seriously?!?!?



People always die. People always die for religion. It's no different now than it was thousands of years ago.

well my dear because there are those out there who either dont want to believe it or dont care to research it and then there are those who do everything they can to suppress the truth even from the mouths of those who are planning it ...no matter how much info you throw at them they will always say....."prove it!!"...The proof they would want would be to arrange a meeting between them and Kissinger...Rockefeler....Rothchilds and any other number of the global elite and they would have to sit down with said non believer...aka sometimes disinfo agent and they would all have to say in a grand chorus ...."YES THERE IS A NEW WORLD ORDER"
Then they might believe.

Or maybe out-of-context quotes and vague allusions to old and dead men ruling the world don't exactly float my boat, mmmkay.

So how long do you think it should take to covertly supplant the independent nations of the world with a one-world government? Do you think people would have accepted it in 1920? 1950? Or would it make more sense to slowly acclimate everyone to the idea over a long period of time so that the conversion would be simple and smooth?

In theory, yes. In theory, Communism works. Think about that.

Major changes in countries happen one of 2 ways: through subversion and coercion or through violent revolution. We already know how the latter works, since that is how the US came to be. We also have some idea of how the former works, since that is how Germany came to be under the control of Hitler. Now consider how much more time and planning and manipulation it would have taken Hitler to trick the whole world into accepting a one world government.

He couldn't have, since his whole "Germans are the amster race" shtick wouldn't have gone over too well with the rest of the world. That, and his whole facist agenda.

One more thought, the world is already under the control of a central power. The World Bank owns almost every developing country, and it does own every developed country, including the US, in the world. Since money is what makes the world go round, and people would rather have money than be free, the World Bank has the power to call the shots, whether we want to admit it or not.

Um...no. The world bank does not own developed nations. Developed nations own the World Bank. Developed nations are shareholders in the company. "Shareholder" is another word for "Owner."




[Edited on 4-27-2004 by Esoterica]

I said in an earlier post that I picked up rule by secracy by Jim Marrs. "The Hidden History that connects The Trilateral Commision, The Freemasons, and The Great Pyramids"

I assume this is the type of thing that people suggest reading to educate themselves about the NWO. The author uses a lot of sources, some more reputible than others. Having only read about the realitivly modern stuff so far, I can say this:

Yes, I conceed that there is some truely machiavellian s*** going on with the money and how the corperate structures of industry are interconnected and controlled, going back at least a few generations and on an international level and by a fairly small group of people. The same names and orginizations keep popping up over and over again in some really funky places and for a long time going back into the 1700s at least. That is difficult for even the most skeptical to ignore for long.

This doesn't surprise me really. I think it's human nature to group up and make effort to advance the status of your group in relation to other groups. But that very dynamic is why I don't think such a group can grow past a certain point and not ever get big or powerful enough to establish dominance over everything. Any group large enough to do that would naturally divide itself in to smaller factions within that group, becoming more groups.

Yeah, there is a small group of people that have an incredible amount of power and control in relation to others. At this point, I think it's mainly greed and a willingness to do whatever it takes, no matter how ruthless, to dominate that's behind this. My question is, when has it ever not been that way and how do you imagine, given human nature, that it can ever be any different?

What it comes down to is manipulation of the masses, for whatever reason. People have always done this, from Alpha Males, to Village Elders, to Shaman/Priests, to Kings, to Churches, to Nations. We are a competitive species. The "playing field" is now the whole planet. More people means more players for higher stakes which include other players.

Frankly, I would be really surprised if there wasn't some group (or several) that was behind the scenes pulling as many strings as they can keep hold of. I think they can only hold so many though. As my friend, Variable pointed out to me, there is too much that is unpredictable, and too much that will naturally be beyond their control, no matter who and how clever they are.

Or maybe out-of-context quotes and vague allusions to old and dead men ruling the world don't exactly float my boat, mmmkay.

or maybe you cant stand the fact that there isnt anything vague about it so you label it vague and maybe theese old men like kissinger are influencing world events more than you realize or care to realize or maybe you think its living young men who would set up the new world order....maybe that would float your boat. or maybe your taking out of context quotes your self. maybe thats what your doing to others statements or may be you support the new world order and want to discredit anyone who comes up with anything or maybe you can come up with a million other reasons to beleive its not happening or maybe you would like a chip and one world army with a one world bank with a one world government or maybe your serving an agenda that nobody but you and a few others know about or maybe the grays got a hold of you and told you what to say and do ....LOL.... there is just so many maybes to so many scenarios ...of course you can deny that anything even remotely looks like NWO till the cows come home and it wont matter.....maybe?
and maybe i cant understand why anyone would waste so much of there valuble "one life and thats all there is " time on trying to debate something that you just dont believe exists.....i know i wouldnt ......must be some needling pet peeve that drives you

I'd have to agree with points made by several people here:

Faisca - learning about it is cool
Flinx / Amuk - incompetencies of current leadership make NWO impossible

I always try to keep an open mind but I just can't believe that over the years, someone hasn't turned whistleblower and published some documents. How else do the NWO/Illuminati guidelines get passed along if they're not written down anywhere. I'd love to hear that there is alien life on earth today (I think we could all debate that some celebrities and politicians fit that mold) but again I can't believe they have so much control over us.

Just my $.02.