Are the Old and New testament God the same God?

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by TruthParadox
... the fact that the God of the Old Testament is completely different than the God of the Old Testament.

Explain how this is fact.

God of the Old Testament: Commands us to kill those who do not hold the same belief.
God of the New Testament: Commands us to love those who do not hold the same belief.

It doesn't get any more different than that.
It is a fact, though it's totally up to you to see it or ignore it.

Originally posted by saint4God
How many acts of creation had he committed? How many acts of creation have we committed (none) and how much have we destroyed? It makes people we think are perfect saints look like sinners.

So just because he created us gives him the right to kill us and send us to Hell?
Just because you have a baby does that give you the right to kill it?
Seriously?

Originally posted by Simplynoone
God is not bipolar ...we get mad ..we get jelious we get all those things that God did in the OT ..not one of us does not at some point act on those things (anger etc ) ..................What makes God any different > We were created in his image ..we dont see it as strange or odd when a human gets jelious or when a human gets mad and uses tough love on someone

Ok, see, that might work.
Except when God gets mad he kills countless people...

We get mad, yes, but we control our anger.
A bipolar person would be one who says we should love our neighbor and then lets his anger get the best of him and decides to kill his neighbor AND his neighbor's dog.

That is bipolar...

If God is the holder of spirits (the spirit goes back to God where it came from) ..and it is he who sends the spirits here in the flesh .(by being born in human form) all of us human beings ............
Then why is it so difficult to see God taking back that spirit of which he sent here in the first place ?

I think God views death different than we do ..he has to ...
I mean he knows there is life after death(we can only guess and believe or not believe ..he knows for sure) and that death is really nothing to him ....otherwise I doubt be would have sent his own son here for humans to kill ..
Why would he have done that unless he views it different than we do ..
And he also would not have sent men to go and kill those Giants ...he knew it would only kill their bodies not the souls in those bodies .....

I just dont know ..this is one of those subjects that really gives me a headache and makes me stress out thinking about it .....

reply to post by Mynaeris


It’s the same God. In the old testament you have to remember when it talks of other cultures they are heathen people who worship many Gods. The Jews of the time were mainly the only one who believe in One true God. As when Jesus came down and was sacrificed it opened up for everybody else to become saved. If they can believe in him. The Jews and Gentiles actually meant nothing any longer because even Gentiles can find forgiveness in the Lord.

No they are not the same GOD, this is also why the gnostic scriptures have been attacked, burned and considered heretical in the past and have since been found, interpreted and more or less kept hidden away from public knowledge. Jesus spoke of a different GOD, the True Father, he said...:

King James Bible

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

People's New Testament

14:6 I am the way, and the truth, and the life. This is said in reply to Thomas. Without him there would be no Way revealed; no divine and saving truth, no immortal life.

No man cometh unto the Father, but by me. Not only can no one enter the Father's house without him, but no man can come to the Father on earth so as to enjoy his favor. There is no other name given under heaven among men whereby we must be saved (Ac 4:12).

www.gnosis.org...

"And the Sophia of the Epinoia, being an aeon, conceived a thought from herself and the conception of the invisible Spirit and foreknowledge. She wanted to bring forth a likeness out of herself without the consent of the Spirit, - he had not approved - and without her consort, and without his consideration. And though the person of her maleness had not approved, and she had not found her agreement, and she had thought without the consent of the Spirit and the knowledge of her agreement, (yet) she brought forth. And because of the invincible power which is in her, her thought did not remain idle, and something came out of her which was imperfect and different from her appearance, because she had created it without her consort. And it was dissimilar to the likeness of its mother, for it has another form.

"And when she saw (the consequences of) her desire, it changed into a form of a lion-faced serpent. And its eyes were like lightning fires which flash. She cast it away from her, outside that place, that no one of the immortal ones might see it, for she had created it in ignorance. And she surrounded it with a luminous cloud, and she placed a throne in the middle of the cloud that no one might see it except the holy Spirit who is called the mother of the living. And she called his name Yaltabaoth.

"This is the first archon who took a great power from his mother. And he removed himself from her and moved away from the places in which he was born. He became strong and created for himself other aeons with a flame of luminous fire which (still) exists now. And he joined with his arrogance which is in him and begot authorities for himself. The name of the first one is Athoth, whom the generations call the reaper.

I would say if the gnostic scriptures are right it would account for A WHOLE LOT of garbage that takes place on this planet, and it would also DIRECTLY answer the question of ....."The Vatican?"

[edit on 1/29/2009 by PuRe EnErGy]

The God of the OT and NT are not the descriptions of the real God. The book was written by man for man, and cannot possibly describe the real thing because his description was in the eyes of the interpreter. Whether this person was a perfectionist, hostile, control freak, having a bad day, self righteous or just not a good writer.

Keep in mind that none of the books were written by professionals.

reply to post by TruthParadox

We get mad, yes, but we control our anger.
A bipolar person would be one who says we should love our neighbor and then lets his anger get the best of him and decides to kill his neighbor AND his neighbor's dog.

God is not bi-polar, schizophrenic, rage-oholic or codependent. But the Bible was written by many who had "issues."

Originally posted by TruthParadox
God of the Old Testament: Commands us to kill those who do not hold the same belief.

O rly? plz quote scripture taht sez "kill those who do not hold the same belief".

"You shall not murder." - Exodus 20:13

Oops, that not it. Maybe this is it:

"You shall not murder." - Deuteronomy 5:17

Odd, both of these books are in the old testament. Go figure. Is the unclear part "You" or "shall not"?

Originally posted by TruthParadox
Just because you have a baby does that give you the right to kill it?
Seriously?

El oh el, humans don't create babies. You see, there are these cells in a male and a female that are haploid cells. These cells are not created by mankind. Did you design your DNA? Did you make yourself grow? Seriously? Are we going to have a birds and bees discussion here?

[edit on 30-1-2009 by saint4God]

reply to post by saint4God


Hmmm maybe here:

Joshua 7:10
Then Yahweh said to Joshua, 'Israel has taken something that was put under the curse of destruction. That is why the Israelites cannot stand up to their foes.'

Joshua 7:14-15
'Tomorrow morning, the man who took cursed objects must be burnt to death, he and all those who belong to him.’

Sounds like brutal murder to me? Or maybe here?

Exodus 11:4-5
Moses then said, 'Yahweh says this: At midnight I shall pass through Egypt, and all the first-born will die.'


Maybe how to deal with the kids:

Deuteronomy 21:20
'They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard."
Deuteronomy 21:21
'All the men of the town must then stone him to death. You must banish this evil from among you.'

God teaching Israel how to raise kids.

Should I find a few hundred more?




[edit on 30-1-2009 by Mynaeris]

Originally posted by TruthParadox
God of the Old Testament: Commands us to kill those who do not hold the same belief.

Good post
Some of the comments/instructions to 'true beleivers' issued in the bible seem quite sociopathic,bigoted and dangerously unhinged to me:

A Christian can not be accused of any wrongdoing. Romans 8:33

You must kill those who worship another god. Exodus 22:20

Kill any friends or family that worship a god that is different than your own. Deuteronomy 13:6-10

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

Kill everyone who has religious views that are different than your own. Deuteronomy 17:2-7

Kill anyone who refuses to listen to a priest. Deuteronomy 17:12-13

Kill any false prophets. Deuteronomy 18:20

Any city that doesn’t receive the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. Mark 6:11

Jude reminds us that God destroys those who don’t believe in him. Jude 5

Don’t associate with non-Christians. Don’t receive them into your house or even exchange greeting with them. 2 John 1:10

Shun those who disagree with your religious views. Romans 16:17

Paul, knowing that their faith would crumble if subjected to free and critical inquiry, tells his followers to avoid philosophy. Colossians 2:8

Whoever denies “that Jesus is the Christ” is a liar and an anti-Christ. 1 John 2:22

Christians are “of God;” everyone else is wicked. 1 John 5:19

The non-Christian is “a deceiver and an anti-Christ” 2 John 1:7

Anyone who doesn’t share Paul’s beliefs has “an evil heart.” Hebrews 3:12

False Jews are members of “the synagogue of Satan.” Revelations 2:9, 3:9

Kill all the inhabitants of any city where you find people that worship differently than you. Deuteronomy 13:12-16

But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them - bring them here and kill them in front of me. Luke 19:27

Other relevant threads:
Abrahamic lore Vs Non beleivers:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Bible god not a nice chap:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

Homicidal bible quotes:
www.abovetopsecret.com...

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by saint4God


I guess the "thou shallt not kill rule" has numerous exceptions - some for war, some vengeance, some God wants you to, some because the kids are brats. On the other hand he seems pretty okay with killing.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by TruthParadox
God of the Old Testament: Commands us to kill those who do not hold the same belief.

O rly? plz quote scripture taht sez "kill those who do not hold the same belief".

"You shall not murder." - Exodus 20:13

Oops, that not it. Maybe this is it:

"You shall not murder." - Deuteronomy 5:17

Odd, both of these books are in the old testament. Go figure. Is the unclear part "You" or "shall not"?

Really?
You want me to point out the scriptures (plural)?
I think Karl 12 covered most of them, so start there.
What you did here was merely bring to light a contradiction - one which I myself have brought up several times.
Yes, God says "thou shalt not kill", but then in the same book he says "thou SHALT kill if" - what follows is an extremely long list which apparently does give us a 'license to kill'.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by TruthParadox
Just because you have a baby does that give you the right to kill it?
Seriously?

El oh el, humans don't create babies. You see, there are these cells in a male and a female that are haploid cells. These cells are not created by mankind. Did you design your DNA? Did you make yourself grow? Seriously? Are we going to have a birds and bees discussion here?

Our universe runs on cause/effect.
Cause: sex
effect: baby
Yes, humans do make babies.
Why do the specifics matter?
You pretty much said that God is justified in making us flawed and then killing us for being just how he made us - just how he knew we would be.
That is retarded (put simply).
In fact, he is less justified solely BECAUSE he knows the specifics and because he created them to be JUST THAT - he had to if he is all knowing and all powerful.

Either way, one thing is for sure. No crime fits the punishment of eternal torment - let alone the refusal to believe in sky fairies.

Originally posted by MatrixProphet
The God of the OT and NT are not the descriptions of the real God. The book was written by man for man, and cannot possibly describe the real thing because his description was in the eyes of the interpreter. Whether this person was a perfectionist, hostile, control freak, having a bad day, self righteous or just not a good writer.

Keep in mind that none of the books were written by professionals.

Agreed and disagreed... how's that for bi-polar traits

The NT god is not the G.d of the Tanakh. The Tanakh very clearly lays out the Nature of G.d and while I agree that the stories are allegorical, the Nature of G.d is not and it is not what others here are portraying it to be.

The following is now speaking in general:

His beef was not with mankind and His beef with His children was FOR THE SAKE of makind and the covenant He made with Noah to not destroy all of mankind off the face of the earth again.

This is mentioned many places in the Tanakh two books of which are Job and Isaiah.

So, since His children are willing to take the brunt of the punishments, why do so many have to misconstrue it to seem so ugly when really it is in fact quite beautiful?

the Christians came in and misconstrued the whole meaning and thus, what was not meant for all is now being torn apart without any decent seeking and research on any one's part to see the Truth. Instead, people choose to pick apart and blame G.d and blame others when it was NEVER about that.

So many "want" to be a part of it and yet how can they when not only do they not understand it, but they curse the Creator and who He is by saying that the chastisements of Israel were meant for all. Gah! He was showing kindness to all of mankind!!

I for one see how very justified His jealousy is. Look around you people.. this did not all just appear and here you all are... but instead of enjoying it, you worry... you condemn... you seek forgiveness as though He is breathing down your neck even now with a gun pressed to your head... you miss out on the great thing called LIFE by your own choose and then to add insult to injury, you refuse to even TRY to honestly understand Him and the Tanakh and curse and blame Him instead. I don't understand it and quite frankly.. there are just moments where I have to say it.. you deserve whatever it is you are bringing on yourselves.. because it is YOU all bringing it on yourselves and not Him.

reply to post by TruthParadox



You are confusing the G.d of the Tanakh with the god in the NT. Hell is not a punishment according to the Tanakh (the part of the bible the christians pay little attention to).

The Tanakh is allegorical... We know this because it is even said many times over in there. It is meant to search and reflect the heart of His children (the real Israel.. not the state of ..) so that they could continue to honor their covenant with Him so that He could continue to honor His covenant with mankind.

G.d does not (as is clearly stated in there) work outside the Laws of Nature (which He created).

Death is not a flaw in my personal opinion. It is natural... otherwise how could creation continue to evolve... the earth would either get overpopulated or a bunch of the same people would be stuck here indefinitely and with nothing new to bring into the world (no new life if death ceases to be a natural part of the life process), things would grow stale.

Everyone misses the brilliance while they are so busy complaining and blaming Him as if they could do any better. Good luck! Mankind is one hell of a stubborn and prideful species and it is a wonder He has put up with us and our haughty attitudes for so long. The world does not revolve around us... either take place in LIFE so that you will be too busy to complain about your Creator or accept that you're just a waste of space. (not directed at TruthParadox personally... generic "you")

I know there is still billions of people who believe in one god or another and could never give up their religion or beliefs in their god,
but seriously people its time to drop it all, its all basically lies, the story of Jesus is older than Jesus himself as the same story has been told of others that were held in a god like view way before Jesus was born,

sure there may have been a man who went by the name Jesus and he may have been the kind of person who could do favours for the needy or weak or might have even spared a few quid to thy neighbour for some groceries, and helped a few old ladies across the road and carried their shopping for them and might have even helped out father shamus Flannigan O'reily with the sex education in the local catholic school for boys and over time all these good deeds would have been noticed by many others and soon those others would have come to him for help and guidance then the words Oh your a life saver and oh your a god send would have been used to thank him for his help which most likely just grew from there,,,

And your correct in saying that "The world does not revolve around us... "
it revolves around the sun.

you can prove AND disprove science but you cannot do the same with god as there is none prove or disprove.




[edit on 30/1/2009 by heretic today gone tomorr]

Originally posted by justamomma
Death is not a flaw in my personal opinion. It is natural... otherwise how could creation continue to evolve... the earth would either get overpopulated or a bunch of the same people would be stuck here indefinitely and with nothing new to bring into the world (no new life if death ceases to be a natural part of the life process), things would grow stale.

That's not the flaw I was talking about.
The flaw is that which gives God the right to punish us.
He's the one that made us with the flaw, so it's his responsibility.

Originally posted by justamomma
Everyone misses the brilliance while they are so busy complaining and blaming Him as if they could do any better. Good luck! Mankind is one hell of a stubborn and prideful species and it is a wonder He has put up with us and our haughty attitudes for so long.

But if he is omnipotent and omniscient, then he MADE us to have such "haughty attitudes".
Any omnipotent and omniscient being who created the universe would have created us knowing exactly which flaws would be exploited in us. He would have created us to be exactly how we are.
That's why such a being would not be justified in judging us - because everything is HIS will. If everything is HIS will, then why punish us?
If there is an omnipotent and omniscient being, then we can only become what he/she made us to become.
Once you understand that, you will understand how the whole bases of judgement, tests, tribulations, etc (about 95% of the Bible) is redundant, pointless, and even backwards.

Originally posted by justamomma
The world does not revolve around us... either take place in LIFE so that you will be too busy to complain about your Creator or accept that you're just a waste of space. (not directed at TruthParadox personally... generic "you")

I don't believe that there is a creator. This is all for the purpose of expanding awareness.
You can take the scripture where God commands you to kill your child if he/she disobeyes, and you can spin it and make it look like a good thing all you want. It doesn't change the facts.

reply to post by TruthParadox

But if he is omnipotent and omniscient, then he MADE us to have such "haughty attitudes".
Any omnipotent and omniscient being who created the universe would have created us knowing exactly which flaws would be exploited in us. He would have created us to be exactly how we are.
That's why such a being would not be justified in judging us - because everything is HIS will. If everything is HIS will, then why punish us?
If there is an omnipotent and omniscient being, then we can only become what he/she made us to become.
Once you understand that, you will understand how the whole bases of judgement, tests, tribulations, etc (about 95% of the Bible) is redundant, pointless, and even backwards.

It is not as black and white as you would like to think! There are other options - such as this one. And this one.

reply to post by Mynaeris


The short answer...

is....

YES.

I have a theory that the Hebrews or Hibirus were around in the time of the Great Pyramid at Gizeh. If you look at the sign at the entrance of the pyramid, which goes back to 2623 BC it is believed, the word on the entrance looks very much like the Greek word for God roughly translated as Theon. The New testament was written in Greek, and I think that the word was written differently after two and a half thousand years, but it still can be translated as Theon._javascript:icon('')

I have read that like certain Roman emperors are considered and called a god when they are dead. Is this also true of other cultures for that time? It seems this could be somewhat likely among the Egyptians, but I'm not sure on it.

It made me think of this thread and this question. Perhaps this is where what seems like the different gods comes from? Although there is a certainly an element which is beyond the scope of just the earth, so I'm not sure. But some of the other things however, which are generally the ones I can't see a reason behind would seem to fit the idea of a king on the ground.