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Are the Old and New testament God the same God?

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posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 12:43 AM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 


we were talking about the bible.


if you want to talk about the epic version, i have no problem with that, but pick one.

odd question.




posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 10:34 AM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 


God is many things. He's also just. Imagine the scenario you appear to be promoting. Since your way is apparently 'broad' rather than 'narrow' we would find all manner of people making their way to heaven to commune with a perfect, sinless, and holy God. On the other hand, if faith in Christ is the criterion, then it's a level playing field with an absolute basis. Nobody can point a finger at anyone else and say, "What is HE doing here? I did many more good things in my life than he did! He is SO wicked!"

In your denial, you seem very preoccupied with the death and suffering on this planet. This is a result of man's sin, our sin, not God's indifference or amusement. So typical. No wrath for the sons of Satan murdering millions but plenty of wrath for God who you'd like to ORDER to wave his magic wand to have it all be O.K. What rubbish.

You are obviously a very shallow reader if you get the idea that Job was tormented because of a bet between God and Satan. Toward the middle of the story, I think you start to see that Job actually needed some refinement. He was convinced that he was sinless and he really spends way too much time defending his righteousness to the 3 friends. It isn't until the younger man speaks that you start getting the picture and when God speaks, that pretty much exposes what is going on. Did you get to the end of the book or were you too busy crying your little eyes out trying to get through the part about the shiftless, partying, fornicating children having a roof dropped on them?

Oh boo hoo, Doctor Smith. Oh, the humanity, the humanity!

The story of Job is exactly the same story that every unrepentant sinner in enmity with God goes through. Some turn, some don't. God wants them to turn and restore their relationship. I suppose you have a better method, perhaps a little cake and some cookies to deal with their thieving, lying, adulterous, fornicating transgressions? That's about how most mothers raise their children these days so that's probably your proposition.

Maybe you should try wrapping your eyes around the bible and start asking God to reveal the truth that is in it instead of hanging around on ATS arguing with people like Ichabod.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 10:57 AM
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Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
So liars and thieves will go to Hell?

Good then Hell will be absolutely PACKED, in fact I'd say 99.9% of human beings will be in Hell if we take the Bible as a literal guide book to getting into Heaven.


Good point,here are some apt quotes:

Heaven:

Those people who tell me that I'm going to hell while they are going to heaven somehow make me very glad that we're going to separate destinations.
Martin Terman

Thousands have gone to heaven who never read one page of the Bible.
Francis A. Baker



Other:

"At least two-thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity: idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religous or political ideas".
Aldous Huxley

"When the churches literally ruled society, the human drama encompassed: (a) slavery; ( b ) the cruel subjection of women;©the most savage forms of legal punishment; (d) the absurd belief that kings ruled by divine right; (e) the daily imposition of physical abuse; (f) cold heartlessness for the sufferings of the poor; as well as (g) assorted pogroms ('ethnic cleansing' wars) between rival religions, capital punishment for literally hundreds of offenses, and countless other daily imposed moral outrages. . . . It was the free-thinking, challenging work by people of conscience, who almost invariably had to defy the religious and political status quo of their times, that brought us out of such darkness." Steve Allen


I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.
Thomas Jefferson - Third President of the United States

You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world.
Bertrand Russell

To crush out fanaticism and revere the infinite, such is the law. Let us not confine ourselves to falling prostrate beneath the tree of creation and contemplating its vast ramifications full of stars. We have a duty to perform, to cultivate the human soul, to defend mystery against miracle, to adore the incomprehensible and to reject the absurd; to admit nothing that is inexplicable excepting what is necessary, to purify faith and obliterate superstition from the face of religion, to remove the vermin from the garden of God.
Victor Hugo


And about the abrahamic god and the bible:

"The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." - Richard Dawkins

"The bible is a blueprint of in-group morality,complete with instructions for genocide,enslavement of out groups,and world domination.
But the bible is not evil by virtue of its objectives or even its glorification of murder,cruelty and rape.
Many ancient works do that-the Iliad, the Icelandic sagas, the tales of the ancient Syrians and the inscriptions of the ancient Mayans,for example.
But noone is selling the Iliad as a foundation for morality.
Therein lies the problem."



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:00 AM
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reply to post by Mynaeris
 


Actually they are the same is just that in the first one during the time conquest of the chosen people God became violent and despot.

In the second testament when the chosen people were forced into slavery God became human.




posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:18 AM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


he apparently was consistent since he wiped out over 100,000 israelites for reinstituting the golden calf thing while moses was up the mountain having his meeting with the burning bush. that's alot of people to suddenly die, all at once. all israelites. which kinda wipes the idea that he was only vengeful to the enemies of israel.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:26 AM
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reply to post by undo
 


Dear by the bible accounts he wipe out a lot of people during his first testament accounts and he was chosy too, unless it was virgins and young girls, males were no so lucky.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:30 AM
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Oh yeah? How about the time God killed all those people with a flood huh? And all those times people die, God kills them too because He could stop it.

Someday, mankind will take individual responsibility for our actions...but it seems today is not that day. Until then, know that God never destroyed anything He did not create. Mankind on the otherhand...



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:38 AM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


survival tactic.
more females means more babies. jesus even mentions that some things that are construed as God's laws are not. they are Moses' laws. moses was a man, living in troubled times, in an era where women had the value of the family heifer



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:43 AM
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reply to post by undo
 


You know that is true, one of the reason I find very amusing in the first testament of the bible is how human the feelings and actions of God were.

The second testament as much of humanity as the will of the church of the times to believe in a human Saviour.

BTW I am not a believer in Christianity and neither a follower of organized religion.

I have my own set of believes that while acknowledge a power I don't give it as much human characteristics and the bible does.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 11:47 AM
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reply to post by marg6043
 


jesus did not agree with treating women in that fashion and indicated that by his treatment of women he encountered in the texts. the text is historical. it shows us the various interactions people have had over the millenia with various supernatural powers, some of which could very well be "extra-terrestrial" and some of which are clearly "other dimensional". the message is consistently about getting along with each other in the human community, as healthfully as possible.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 12:02 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


Thanks for bringing the issue of the extraterrestial link, I do have believes that many encounters in the first testament does indeed match what could be considered of extraterrestial nature.

I have seen a documetary in the science discovery debating about that.

But that belongs in another thread.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 04:35 PM
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reply to post by Ichabod
 


No thanks, I've put the Bible (and all the other arcane and irrelevant faiths that keep people in line and bickering amongst themselves) aside to search for the true God. If He wants to reveal Himself he'll have to do without religion, which I assume He can because He's All-Powerful. An All-Powerful God who created the Universe which every religion has managed to narrow into a tiny little window that puts their religion on top and all the others in some sort of eternal torment (except for the few peaceful religions).

Once again you claim I am angry with God, how can I be? I do not know God, I have set religion aside to pursue the TRUTH from scratch. I would not arrogantly claim to have the whole truth, all I have is measure for truth in my heart, the reason and logic and emotion which guides me. I have given the Bible and Christianity its fair chance, weighed it carefully, and come to an honest conclusion with a solid basis. I looked at the Bible for what it is, a book, a book that before that I dared not doubt. For doubting the word, for a Christian is tantamount to the worst sin. But I looked at it for what it was, a book, and that it claimed to be the Word of a Perfect God. And yet the Bible is not perfect and therefore cannot be the Word of God.

So suffering is caused by man's sin and stupidity eh? Yeah a ten year old kid getting Cancer and dying sure sounds like justice to me
what did he did forget to clean his room?

Or the first born of Egypt supposedly being slaughtered by God Himself simply because of the Pharaoh's evil and stupidity, yeah punishing a bunch of kids for someone else's sins, sounds like Justice to me


Sorry but that's not the work of a just God, its the work of the story-tellers who wrote the Bible.

I've known plenty of "sinners" in my day, I've known people from every religion imaginable, and you know what, a lot of atheists are good moral people and a lot of Christians are terrible wicked 'sinners'.

So you can go on pretending you know everything there is to know about God, and pretending that by disagreeing with your religion I am somehow attacking God. Me, I'm gonna go out looking for the truth with eyes open...



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 04:48 PM
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reply to post by Titen-Sxull
 


um, what's with the "christians" are this and that syndrome? we're people, human beings, just like you. this kind of description of your fellow humans just drives them in the opposite direction than the one you'd prefer to see them go, because it's so illogical to assume the title instantly makes them more or less of something. the title doesn't do jack.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 05:31 PM
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reply to post by Mynaeris
 





Are the Old and New testament God the same God?


As jesus never claimed to be Yaweh or a god and persistently referred to yaweh as the father.

Is it not reasonable to conclude that the jews in the time period spoken of in the new testament worshiped yaweh no differently than the jews of the time period spoken of in the old testament?

Jesus was not made a god until the council of nicea , so shouldn't the question be rephrased - Are jesus and yaweh one and the same entity ?



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 05:36 PM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


No the question refers to the God in the Old Testament and the God in the New Testament , due to the rather DID attributes of this entity. OT - vengeful , jealous, always smiting away , the need for circumcision - NT - loving, forgiving, you can keep your foreskin etc. The question does not refer to Jesus.



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 06:01 PM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


sadly, this is a very old argument that has pro and con on both sides. the thing every one appears to be missing is that there were many gods --- a divine council, over which Jehovah presided. the council was comprised of what the texts call THE SONS OF GOD, yet they were also called gods. This solves the entire dilemma. Jesus IS God. Jesus IS THE SON OF GOD. And Jehovah IS his Father. Elegant solution for a very warn out argument that just refuses to accept that there was a divine council



[edit on 5-2-2009 by undo]



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 06:11 PM
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divine council (.pdf file) - michael s. heiser, phD
www.thedivinecouncil.com...

the heavenly divine council (.html website)
users.aristotle.net...



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 06:42 PM
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Originally posted by Mynaeris
reply to post by moocowman
 


No the question refers to the God in the Old Testament and the God in the New Testament , due to the rather DID attributes of this entity. OT - vengeful , jealous, always smiting away , the need for circumcision - NT - loving, forgiving, you can keep your foreskin etc. The question does not refer to Jesus.


Obviously from what you typed we are either dealing with 2 different gods or a schizophrenic, quite obvious really.,given the fact that there is no evidences proving the existence of this god then a believer will accept what they want or are told to accept regardless of reason or evidence.

[edit on 5-2-2009 by moocowman]



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 06:57 PM
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reply to post by moocowman
 


evidence? you're saying you can prove God doesn't exist? you realize how impossible that is, of course?



posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 10:36 PM
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reply to post by undo
 


I know Christians are people. In no way am I saying that all Christians are a certain way, only most of the ones I've met, known, or heard about.

Lot's of Christians are good people but one of my points (at least in my last post) was that so are lot's of agnostics, atheists, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc...

Being a good or bad person is all about what you say and do and not about what religion you follow, there are lot's of bad people supposedly serving a good God, and some good people who choose not to believe in any god at all...



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