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Are the Old and New testament God the same God?

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posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 07:28 AM

Originally posted by Titen-Sxull
reply to post by Ichabod

So liars and thieves will go to Hell?

Good then Hell will be absolutely PACKED, in fact I'd say 99.9% of human beings will be in Hell if we take the Bible as a literal guide book to getting into Heaven.

All the interesting and cool people will be in Hell if there's any truth to the Bible.

You are so silly, I honestly shook my head in amusement as I read your reply. You can't defend a silly erroneous belief system from the blinding light of logic and truth, in fact you didn't really even defend it from any of my points.

I'm not attacking or resisting God, I'm merely attacking one narrow view point of Him, a view point which stems from the false belief in the Bible as anything more than a flawed man-made collection of documents... There is no evidence to support the Bible as having any authority or being truly from God, the book merely CLAIMS to be a divine product of God... A claim that can either be blindly bought into or can be TESTED with the use of logic...

Well I'm here to say, sadly enough, the Bible failed the test, now the search for the REAL God begins...

Oh come now. You think it's great that a place like hell would be packed? What kind of a fool wants to spend eternity in hell no matter how many people are there rather than simply accept the authority of God? It's silly false bravado. Would your children be happy about your choice if you're wrong, the bible is true and hell is packed? Who is being heartless and cruel now? Your foolish pride is sending you and everyone you can convince to hell. Well done.

...and are you a greater logician than say, David or Solomon? Or would you claim that they never existed? Never wrote the Psalms and Proverbs I suppose. Judges, Samuel, Kings, Chronicles? Just all a fairy tale in your mind I suppose. What about the book of Ester? Do you think that's a fairy tale? Would you say that Jesus, being a Jew from 2000 years ago had a better or worse understanding of the scriptures and Hebrew than modern day scholars? Why did he spend so much time quoting old testament scripture if he didn't agree with it? Would you say that Paul, being a Jew among Jews, trained by the greatest Rabbi of his time, had a better or worse understanding of scriptures than modern day scholars? But I suppose all his letters are just contrivances, brushed away by the spurious notions of book hocking pseudo-intellectuals.

Here's a little logic for you - when you hear hoof beats, it's most probably horses, not giraffes.

You're making the classic mistake of substituting rationality for logic. By expressing incredulity at the manner in which God works, you're simply saying you don't like his methods. That's preferential and thus a topic of rationality not logic.

So, here's the problem. You can only make arguments about the situation we find ourselves in based on your own, personal rationality and use this as supposed evidence that the bible is false, etc. E.G. - How could a loving God do this kind of thing!? Since you don't share God's preferences and understanding, this will always remain a handy device for your resistance to and attack on God. It's the same thing Adam and Eve used. It's the same thing Cain used.

So, once again, you're in good company. Billions of mockers and scoffers couldn't be wrong, right?

Place your bets ladies and gentlemen.

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 12:48 PM
reply to post by undo

You are correct ,about the cultural origins of the El prefix namiology

I have found fragments of Sumerian, Babylonian ,and Egyptian texts embedded in the Old testament ,there are more too

just like to say that the sacrifice of the Red Heifer is straight up Egyptian

in reference not only to texts and names but practice and ritual as well

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 01:14 PM
reply to post by invisiblewoman

their gods were the same. the same council of gods. just different names and some traditions. RA, for example, appears to have been associated with EA (Enki). Hathor was Isis, who was also Inana, Astoreth and a few others. Osiris was Nimrod, Enmerkar, Narmer (and later, appears to be Gilgamesh as well). These are the same as the later Grecian, Roman and Norse gods as well.

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 01:51 PM
reply to post by undo

I'm believing there are even older cultures from which they inherited these traditions

It has just been discovered that there was a North African wide ,culture that had many of the same animal headed Gods and mummified their dead ,and had many similarities to the subsequent Egyptian culture,but pre date it by nearly 5 thousand years ,that makes it roughly 10 thousand years old!

I can't wait to find out more about it

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 01:54 PM

Originally posted by karl 12
I think its possible hell could have just been a rubbish tip on the outskirts of ancient Judea - it seems a more plausible and feasible explanation than the alternative anyway.

Who knows, anything is possible.
But didn't Jesus give a parable which was talking about a man who was burning in Hell for years, and he wanted to give a message to his relatives to not live a selfish life, "lest" they end up in Hell?

Then again, if I remember correctly, I think there were two words which were translated to "Hell". One was meant to describe the grave, or final resting place. But I thought the other was meant to describe the mythical "lake of fire".

Who knows...
The Bible is so vague when describing life after death.

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 02:18 PM
reply to post by invisiblewoman

oh yeah? oh i'd be interested in seeing that.
got a link?

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 02:43 PM
reply to post by undo

no alas, I saw it onone of those discovery programs ,and because as frequently happens I miss the end the middle or the beginning,but they recycle these shows all the time so next time I get a crack at it ,I'll look it up and get a link

interesting stuff ,I was agog over this one though because I'm an archeology nut and I had not heard of this before ,turns out it's brand new to science !

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 03:11 PM
reply to post by invisiblewoman

betcha that's the reptilian folks

i haven't been able to find a human statue prior to 3000 BC

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 03:13 PM
From what the Christians tell me, there's only ONE God.
I think they were intended to be the same.

Saying that they aren't would mean that Christianity is polytheistic! That means they would all have to go to hell for worshipping idols, right?

My vote is out on the issue, obviously.

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 03:18 PM
reply to post by ravenshadow13

there are many gods but
only one MOST HIGH GOD.

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 03:21 PM
reply to post by undo

I believe the Greeks get credit for personifying Gods as glorified humans,true the Egyptians and Babylonians had human imagery for powerful figures but they were in the vein of God Kings

I also don't discount that the very beginnings of people deifying Gods was as we see depicted in caves art

in the very beginning our Gods were the animals that we depended on

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 03:33 PM
reply to post by invisiblewoman

well i have an outlandish version of what happened prior to about 5000 BC. i don't think we humans were here at that point. i think we were brought here sometime after that but before 4000BC. rather, i think the "bipedal" beings that were here prior to us, were reptilian-mammalian, amphibian-mammalian and insectoid-mammalian. i could be wrong, but i doubt it.

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 04:36 PM
reply to post by undo

undo ,I can totally concoct a reality that goes something like that!

there really isn't anything I love more than speculating about how it all really went down

and I'm not ready to say there isn't something to your theory

so far I 've been able to find a perfectly,terrestrial source for it all 'which doesn't at all mean I know all the answers

my current theory is there's an Alien in there somewhere,but where ? when?

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 04:49 PM
reply to post by invisiblewoman

i think we are the "aliens."

the other fellas were here first. (hint: the Angels... lucifer had to come from somewhere yes?)

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 05:48 PM
umm let me think about that

don't know how to quantify 'Lucifer' not sure where such an entity fits in to the picture

nor am I clear on what exactly an 'Angel might be,still working on that one

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 06:10 PM
reply to post by invisiblewoman

look up seraph in strong's concordance

Result of search for "seraph":

8314 saraph saw-rawf' from 8313; burning, i.e. (figuratively) poisonous (serpent); specifically, a saraph or symbolical creature (from their copper color):--fiery (serpent), seraph.

wiki says

A seraph (Heb. שׂרף, pl. שׂרפים Seraphim, lat. seraph[us], pl. seraphi[m]) is one of a class of celestial beings mentioned once in the Hebrew Bible (Tanakh or Old Testament), in Isaiah. Later Jewish imagery perceived them as having human form, and in that way they passed into the ranks of Christian angels. In the Christian angelic hierarchy, seraphim represent the highest known rank of angels.

that's singular for seraphim (angels)

so, a bunch of these guys were created before humans.
doesn't say where they were from. i think they were from here. check the statues in the iraqi museum (this one has more than 6 fingers on each hand, huge snake like eyes, and scales... circa 4000 BC ...Eridu! (enki's place)

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 06:34 PM
I know what the definition is according to religion

but I don't think they exist,at least not as described

what I think they represent is the Gods of ancient peoples,that were overwhelmed during the Mesopotamian Invasions starting with the Sumerians being conquered by the Assyrians and continuing down to the Romans and Early Crusaders

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 10:46 PM
reply to post by Ichabod

I'm not being heartless and cruel, most Christians are. Most Christians are excited and happy when they think about the supposed "End Times" and being taken to Heaven, but they forget that at least 90% of all human beings (if the Bible is to be taken seriously) are likely going to Hell (not to mention all the plagues, famines, and death spoken of in Revelation). Even if there are a few billion Christians on Earth how many of them are truly following Christ, at least here in America its a very small margin, most Christians (from my Church going experience a good half of them) are only going through the motions, they buy into the beliefs because that's what they were taught, and they were also taught that disbelief or holding a seperate belief would result in burning, not just for a lifetime, but for ETERNITY.
Try to wrap your head around how long an eternity is than try to figure out how a God who IS LOVE (he's not just loving, He's actually equated with LOVE) is going to be sending people to a burning fiery lake of torment forEVER.

I do not make the assertion that the Bible is a bunch of fairy-tales, there is some level of historical accuracy but I can say with no certainty what in the Bible is or isn't true. There are certainly portions of the Bible which CANNOT be taken literally, for instance, the absurd belief that all the millions of species on Earth could have fit on a boat of the size Noah is said to have built.

Let's not forget that Paul was the guy telling women to be quiet during Church. To say that the Bible is the Word of God is to believe that God not only condones terrible acts of barbarism but that he sometimes commits these acts Himself. In Job he takes away all of Jobs wealth and kills Jobs children, seemingly to settle a bet with SATAN (who, apparently, gets an escort of angels!).

Once again you are confusing what I am talking about with disagreeing with God. I am disagreeing with a collection of Books that make up our modern Bible. I am disagreeing, due to a great deal of cognitive dissonance which built up during my years spent trying to be a Christian, with the notion of God put forth in the Bible.

I do not believe an Almighty Loving being would kill innocent people, smite children, condone slavery, punish people for eternity, diseminate His truth in only one book, in only one religion (which has a thousand different branches and denominations). A God so great He created THE UNIVERSE and yet He can't create an Afterlife of Lenient punishment for the not-so-wicked? A God of EVERYTHING who chooses one people, one religion, and says "screw the rest of you belief systems, you guys can go to Hell, LITERALLY!"

Sorry Ichabod, there's nothing you can do to disuade me, and it has NOTHING to do with the other doubters and everything to do with weighing the truth in my own heart and mind. And remember what your wonderful belief system has done for the world:

Racism and Prejudice
Suppression of Scientific Discovery
Holding up the tyrants of the world who claimed to have "Divine Right"
Crusades and other wars

None of these things would have come about if they'd ACTUALLY been following Christ's teachings.

Its not any attack on God, Ichabod, remember that, its an attack on a notion of God, ideas of God that MAN has come up with. My search for the true God, of the whole Universe, goes on, and it requires me to question everything that claims to be the answer. Blind-belief, buying into the first answer that comes along just because it makes the claim of being the truth, is ignorance and folly.

posted on Feb, 4 2009 @ 11:12 PM
(just for the record, the animals in the ark thing? you need to read it again. )

posted on Feb, 5 2009 @ 12:33 AM
reply to post by undo

Which version, Gilgamesh or Genesis?

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