Was the abrahamic god the worst serial killer in human history?

In reference to the "Good and Bad" of the two seeds...

We have to understand that good and bad has nothing at all to do with either of the two seeds, once again remembering that the concept of good and bad is merely a personal opinion governed by personal understanding.

True Love is blind to good and bad, with God being Love. It is mankind that must place conditions upon love in order to fully fathom what it is. They try to, because they wish to be god-like. But unfortunately we as a species cannot truly understand love because of fear. Fear creates dominion, which is the exact opposite of love.

No my friend, unfortunately (and I am still undecided as to this point so, lol, my mind may change) the issue with the division of the two seeds has everything to do with a grander purpose, one that I had a vision of one night that described a replenashing of two nearly extinct races of God's Creation in which two rivals nearly destroyed eachother (which said war inevitably unbalanced the original creation, which caused what is known as the Big Bang) and it was this prehistoric war that caused the creation of a physical flesh and blood man - a "New Creation" that took the existance of these two races out away from the main sphere of existance (inevitably quarantining these two nemisis species from the rest of the creation so they could do no further damage to it) and placed them together into this embryo we call Earth.

Originally, the new creation was a single man, implanted upon this embryo by one of the two survivors of that war who had the consciousness of preserving his kind, whereas the other rival didn't have that form of consciousness at all. That was the way they were created, so it was their nature. When mankind sprang back into the consciousness of the creation with this new creation, all of creation marveled at it. Obviously the rival became conscious of it too, and challenged the Creator to the right of the rival species being able to continue existance while it was not, challenging the fact that their species was originally created too, and therefore must be allowed to exist as well.

The challenge was a valid one, one that the Creator had to concur with, so the original new creation was then split into two halves, Male and Female, and given the command to do nothing more and nothing less than produce babies.

It was this division that the challenging rival, known as Samael, was afforded the opportunity to not only govern this new creation's progress, but interfere with it to take from it a people for his own. It was when Samael made a move to dominate the entire new creation away from the original progenitor, known as Michael, with the murder of Abel that Samael's ability to interfere directly was cut off, and Seth, the "replacement", was introduced to progenerate the two species fairly.

Thus the emnity between the two seeds...

Mankind's interperatation of Genesis 3: 15 makes the mistake, once again, of being biased in that the actions of brusing heal and head must mean that one will strike the other and cause injury while the other will strike back and cause death. How can we think that a God of Love would destroy one of his creations for excercising it's Free Will?

No, like the parable of the weeds and wheat, the sheep and the goats, the two will be "harvested" - or gathered one kind to kind and the other to it's kind, and ultimately be divided from eachother forever.

This way, the nemesis is corrected, and creation can go on with God's purpose - and find happiness that will be free from dominion.

Once again, this is just my interperatation of a vision I had almost 9 years ago... one that changed my paradigm in life and has continued to fascinate it to this day... as evident truths emerge to verify this new understanding of mine.

Biblically... it explains a great deal about why things are the way they are, and why God brought death to some people.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by holywar

 

Hello holywar,

There is nothing wrong with learning history as long as one can use discernment to know what nature influenced that history.

Many accept blindly.

LV

True, but I am not one of them.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
Im saying, we are human...what makes divinity divinity? Its a nature we cant imagine, a love that has no bounds. That to me is what makes God righteous above all...Love is the strongest power, there is no other that can conquered love.

love without justice, can it be called love? if god permits your abuser to go on abusing you because of his love for him, can it be said that he loves you?

people latch on to that quality of god because its a wonderful quality. but they forget the other 3 qualities he has. justice. wisdom. power.

all of them god has in an absolute sense.

now consider this, what 2 commandments does the whole law hang? 1 love god with all your heart sould and mind 2 love your neighbor as yourself.

thats what god commands us. everything in the mosaic law refers to those 2 commands.

what happens when someone disregards those commands? karl put it "when nonbelievers dont take god seriously" which was an attempt to water down god's commandments, to make it sound like they are infantile. but essentially man breaks one or both of those commandments when they break away from god.

is it loving to your son to burn him alive to an idol that isnt alive?

is it loving to be violent in your everyday dealings?

is it loving to rape visitors to your city?

you cant go on and on about god's love, and then ignore justice. god has the ability and the right to judge people. is he holding us to a perfect standard? not yet, otherwise we would all be dead. in this respect he is showing us mercy.

so instead of relishing god's mercy, people condem god for enacting justice on those who disregard 2 basic commandments.
still

We are responsible for the souls given to us is how I see it.

in this respect i understand what you are saying and i agree. but look at it this way. if ted bundy is sent to the electric chair, is the executioner responsible for ted's death? or is ted?

Originally posted by karl 12
Miriam -you have no idea about who or what god is -your opinions are just based on speculation,conjecture and guesswork... so for you to go postulating about god's divine murderous motivations 'in a factual context' seems to me to be a highly presumptuous (not to mention a little arrogant)

hysterical. you ask a question, then anyone who answers it is presumptuous and arrogant.

if the deaths in the bible are to be debated seriously, then one must at least accept the possibility that the bible is a divinely inspired set of books. its not presumptuous to deduce answers that can be derived from the bible.

in fact you did it too in the OP. you ASSUMED that god is all about love. in fact your whole theory on the hypocrisy of god hinges on god calling himself love. somehow you can deduce this quality of god, yet i dont know who or what god is? are you being presumptuous?

I ask you again-after purposefully murdering all these people and showing no remorse or regret-why do you think he came down and told Moses that killing other people was an bad thing to do?

Do you think God is the ultimate hypocrite or do you just think he got it wrong?

ask and answered. the fact that you give me only 2 possible answers doesnt change my response.

you didnt answer my question.

are suggesting that someone like ted bundy should be alive today?

Originally posted by jakyll
Some very well thought out and presented posts there.

thank you, even if im wrong at least i feel better about it.

But,when it comes to military conquest,you forgot to mention this important fact;God hardened the hearts of Israels enemies,deliberately and on a regular basis.Does it sound like they had a choice in attacking Israel or not.

mistranslation.

its actually and idiom meaning "he allowed them to harden their heart". the phrase acknowledged god's ability to force a change, yet god would let these people make up their own mind.

bible-translation.110mb.com...

And lets not forget that many of the laws within the OT that require the death penalty are just insane,and obviously the workings of an irrational mind.(see link for details) www.religioustolerance.org...

no, symbolic. there was a point being made. without jesus there is no life. sin = death, no exceptions.

adam and eve died for eating fruit they were told not to. it wasnt a hard commandment to keep, it wasnt like they were burdened with the keeping of that law. it was the only law they had. but they rebelled. thats what sin is, it is rebellion. it is saying you want to do things your way instead of gods.

the problem was that adam and eves kids were born with an inclination to sin. they sin and earn death and they dont have a choice. this is were god's justice comes in, he realizes that that is unfair. the question is, how can god save these people legally, without breaking his own justice. this is why we have the ransom.

those who dies because of the law will be resurrected. jesus said so in the book of john. they will have the ability to benefit from jesus' ransom. but here's the key: if they choose to.

Also,and this is important,a child under a certain age (who does not know right from wrong) cannot be guilty of committing a sin.

what age? does the bible state an age? granted i agree that children are not born sinners, however they do have an inclination to sin. it really wouldnt be long before they did.

the second thing you are forgetting is that sometimes the children suffer for the sins of the parents. a mother who drinks while pregnant could damage her baby. is it the babies fault? certainly not. and abortion kills a baby. is it the babies fault? no.

So,i'll ask again,what justification did God have for killing them,thousands of them? (lets not forget he himself intentionally killed all the first born sons in Egypt,many of them young children and babies)

its not a question of justification. its a question of consequence. god specifically told people what to do to prevent that tragedy. it is supposed that some Egyptians did spare their children by doing as god commanded.

as for the ones that didnt, 2 things you must consider.

1- the parent is responsible for the child's life. in this respect, the child is dependent on the wisdom and decisions of their parents. for example, if you go into a car and dont strap your child in, then who is to blame when your child gets hurt or dies in an accident?

2- the people put their faith in pharaoh. by doing this, they suffered for his sins. it was pharaoh's father who tried to stem the isrealites numbers, and it was pharaoh who refused to acknowledge that god was against him. after 9 plagues, you think the people would get the hint. if you have a leader who tells you to jump off a cliff, and you listen to him and you suffer because of it, who is the fool?

I also agree with what Karl12,is the excuse 'they were warned' justifiable?

yes. i remember reading one time that the state of texas has this law (i think it was ron white), if 2 or more people witness you murdering someone, who get executed right away, you dont spend alot of time in jail. can a person who is about to be executed for killing someone in public justly say that the state isnt justified in putting him to death?

if someone says to you, dont touch the fire, you'll get burnt, whos fault is it if you get burnt?

someone says, that is an electric fence, not touch it, who fault is it if you get electrocuted?

life has consequences. people dont like to acknowledge that. the core of this discussion isnt whether or not god is justified in killing. its really about whether or not god has the right to tell us what to do. and whether or not he has the right to enforce his rules.

Can you be justified for disembowling someone when you can either kill them peacefully and painlessly or not at all?

i have a thoery about this, just a thoery

its possible that god didnt directly kill him. he may have allowed whatever sickness he had to grow.

like adam and eve. god didnt technically kill them. but they were allowed to grow old and die.

just a thoery

reply to post by miriam0566


Hello Miriam,

You bring up great points, but I think we are still getting lost in the way humans fix things and associating that to how God fixes things with a swipe of a hand. Love is boundless...love in the spirit world is what holds this world together, love can be a force that we cant understand due to our perception of things. The bad things are a part of being in a physical world instead of a spiritual world.

Look how much the world learned from Hitler, Martin Luther King, Saddam, slavery in America....slowly, we evolve from seeing and observing wrong actions of others and hopefully we evolve away from it as a lesson learned. We have a black president now....I think we have evolved somewhat, wouldn't you say so?

Ted Bundys fate lies in heavens plan...man shouldn't take the seat of God and take his life. This is the fall, we become unrighteous trying to force righteousness. It is not our duty to take a life. We can govern without taking lives. Who is to say that we are not interfering with a person who might one day, come to God, seek God and seek forgiveness with a pure heart?

Sometimes the worst of actions of our human self brings those to God. Sometimes someones actions isn't so much a lesson for them, but a lesson for the world.

Take the ones starving in Africa for example....a lesson for the world that lies at our feet and the world is failing with this lesson. But I do see hope that we will evolve from this...mabey our children or childrens children, but somewhere along the lines, a nation will stand up and say 'this should be a world priority to turn this around'. Those people are not suffering because God is wrathful or Satan is evil...its a failure of mankind, God is waiting on us, not us waiting on God.

As always, just personal thoughts Miriam...
Peace always,
LV

I think this thread is the most disturbing thread I have ever seen on ATS .
It is one thing to not believe in GOD ..it is yet another thing to call God a murderer ...

Fallible wicked mankind calling an infallible HOLY God wicked and murderous .
If I ever had a doubt about satan existing or not ..I sure do not have any doubts now ....after watching so many threads like this get posted and seeing the many stars it gets from others who agree with them .
You can forget the theory we are evolving ..because if this is the mentality of this generation of people then we have sunken to about the deepest depths of spiritual wickedness as we could go .
Karl I am praying for you ......may the Lord have mercy on your soul .

GOD HELP US ......

reply to post by Simplynoone



I think its more like God is waitin on us to come away from wars, come away from seperation, come away from relying on predictions and have faith that we are worthy to change things.

The fear you express is felt by me also, but in a different light. I fear that so many people have placed aspects to God that can not be of Thee....so I see God saying to these people....you do not know me.

The title of the thread is ugly yes....but so is the idea that God lead Abraham's people to kill nations so they could have that land. Its ugly! But so many jump up and down and say 'But he is God, he can do what he wants'. Its crazy! He is not spiteful! And the idea of these people justifying a god to come kill babies for others to learn a lesson....I see a serpent crawling all over it. Then on top of the ugliness, a humble man like Jesus gets tied to this belief and they claim him as the final bloodletting. Christ died to show us things but I dont think it was for a blood covering of sins, I believe this is again, where man fails a lesson.

Talk about evolving...we are stalemated due to this belief...it keeps us from growing and keeps us from really trying to believe there can be a difference in this world...because were all waiting on God to fix it. We should not be waiting but acting...in righteous ways and be the peacekeepers.

Just as though your passion burns and aches for others...so does mine Simplynoon.

Peace to you and yours,
LV

this is not the article that I mentioned I wanted to post, but while looking for it, I found this one which is somewhat relevant to the thread.

What is the value of the "old testament"

reply to post by holywar


There is just a few problems with just tossing out the OT ....it still has unfulfilled prophecies written all over in it ..it has parts and pieces in it about the END TIMES (Things like what each of the 12 tribes of Israel would go through during the end of times etc) .It also has many scriptures about the Second coming of Christ ..also some things are foreshadows of the Rapture (people like Elijah,Enoch and Elisha) .....Daniel has not been completely fulfilled Jeremiah ...Zechariah,Obadiah etc .Job is certainly prophetic in nature ..(he goes through just about everything that many will endure during the trib ) ...Proverbs and Psalms have BUNCHES of goodies in them ..>Ezek is very much an end times book .....etc etc ....Not to mention (what has been before will be again ..nothing new under the sun etc ) there are parallel prophecies all in it ..

Originally posted by Simplynoone
I think this thread is the most disturbing thread I have ever seen on ATS .
It is one thing to not believe in GOD ..it is yet another thing to call God a murderer ...

Thanks for the reply,I think its quite a legitimate question/observation as ,looked at objectively and without emotive agenda,abrahamic mythology is positively littered with advocations and encouragements by god to commit truly heinous,terrible acts.

I often hear justifications/excuses for these attrocities and religious punishments (like stoning a woman to death for adultery or burning someone alive who attempts to disuade a jewish person from their faith) but IMHO all these murderous,barbaric acts only go to further strengthen the conviction that the 'fear based on fear' psychology present in abrahamic texts is man made.

I also often hear the line of reasoning that biblicaly approved murderous activity and the hystericaly sociopathic rules on capital punishment are 'out of context' and should be adapted to fit in with today's heightened awareness of ethics.
If indeed abrahamic lore is the word of the all encompassing creator of the universe....and he/it did indeed come down to this planet orbiting just one of milllions of stars in just one of milllions of galaxies....then surely his/its word or opinion on law would be universal,timeless,constant and immutable....in other words perfect.
Why should it be up to man to superimpose his adaptive interpretations onto them if they came directly from a faultless,sublime omnipotent being?

I realise overt beleivers always have a way of (ab)using fuzzy logic and selective reasoning when it comes to being confronted with many of these quite legitmate questions but it appears to me that any deity (and the biblical one is just one of thousands) who would condone and actively encourage such brutal,depraved actions as stoning and burning people to death warrants pity instead of praise.

Just look at Saudi Arabia where they still stone women to death and commit all manner of other terrible attrocities under the guise of religious punishment-do you also advocate this as being the justice of the abrahamic god or do you just think they are just deluded?

As for your other comments,I'd point you towards these quite (brutally honest) quotes and observations.
I don't necessarily agree with all of them but they certainly make you think (which can only be a good thing):

"When the churches literally ruled society, the human drama encompassed: (a) slavery;(b) the cruel subjection of women;(c)the most savage forms of legal punishment;(d)the absurd belief that kings ruled by divine right;(e)the daily imposition of physical abuse;(f) cold heartlessness for the sufferings of the poor; as well as (g) assorted pogroms ('ethnic cleansing' wars) between rival religions,capital punishment for literally hundreds of offenses,and countless other daily imposed moral outrages. . . . It was the free-thinking, challenging work by people of conscience, who almost invariably had to defy the religious and political status quo of their times, that brought us out of such darkness." Steve Allen

"You find as you look around the world that every single bit of progress in humane feeling, every improvement in the criminal law, every step toward the diminution of war, every step toward better treatment of the colored races, or every mitigation of slavery, every moral progress that there has been in the world, has been consistently opposed by the organized churches of the world. I say quite deliberately that the Christian religion, as organized in its churches, has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world". -Bertrand Russell

"Religion is a disease. It is born of fear; it compensates through hate in the guise of authority, revelation. Religion, enthroned in a powerful social organization, can become incredibly sadistic. No religion has been more cruel than the Christian". -Dr. George A. Dorsey

"I assert most unhesitatingly, that the religion of the South is a mere covering for the most horrid crimes-- a justifier of the most appalling barbarity, a sanctifier of the most hateful frauds, and a dark shelter under which the darkest, foulest, grossest, and most infernal deeds of slaveholders find the strongest protection. Where I to be again reduced to the chains of slavery, next to that enslavement, I should regard being the slave of a religious master the greatest calamity that could befall me. . . I. . . hate the corrupt, slaveholding, women-whipping, cradle-plundering, partial and hypocritical Christianity of this land".
Frederick Douglas

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
If I ever had a doubt about satan existing or not ..I sure do not have any doubts now ....after watching so many threads like this get posted and seeing the many stars it gets from others who agree with them.

"Live a good life. If there are gods and they are just, then they will not care how devout you have been, but will welcome you based on the virtues you have lived by. If there are gods, but unjust, then you should not want to worship them. If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid. "
~ Marcus Aurelius

I'm sorry, there are gods, and they are not just. Two sides of godness, each against the other, and here on Earth, they both feel that their energy (awareness) food crop, humanity (mankind) are theirs.

Look at the evidence of Reality as we know it. Seen any goodness from the leaders lately? No, thought not.

IN front of the vatican is a staue of a giant soul-sphere (orb sculpture); not far from that, is a giant statue of a pine cone (pineal gland). This is never shown on tv, nor mentioned. It represents that actual truth that is kept from the cringing masses, the humancoop (like chickencoop, GET IT?).

The words of spiritual love they propound and profess and speak endlessly on about, even at the very highest levels, is deathly fiendish when perceived through their actions.

Don't forget the new god, the one taking over the minds of the 'rebels' (excuse me why I have a public chuckle: haahhaa): Spaceee...Jesusss!
Sananda (replacing the terrestrial jesu, but still mighty sum of god).

And have you ever seen a dog bite and refuse to let go, even when it hurts like hell? That's the religious creating excuses for continual murder...err, their brand of love and peace, that is.

This is a wondrous thread, but it achieves little. Evil is live, spelled backwards. Dog is god spelled backwards. Now, there's some truth to sink your teeth in.

Isn't that Santa I see comin' to town? (Satan) What a joyous moment for christians, hallelujah! Go get that oil, jr., and remember, you're doing it for a good cause (killing something else that lives that doesn't have your beliefs).

Hoho-Ho.

Originally posted by SS,Naga
I'm sorry, there are gods, and they are not just.

You forgot to add 'in my opinion' the end

And have you ever seen a dog bite and refuse to let go, even when it hurts like hell? That's the religious creating excuses for continual murder...err, their brand of love and peace, that is.

Yes I agree there,its not a pretty sight-true beleivers murdering people out of some warped,twisted religious conviction is about as low as you can go ...and all the more worrying since there is not one speck of evidence for any of it.

This is a wondrous thread, but it achieves little. Evil is live, spelled backwards. Dog is god spelled backwards. Now, there's some truth to sink your teeth in.

And 'If' is the middle word in life my friend

[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

reply to post by karl 12


Karl I think you could have least worded the thread a tad more tactful than God is a murdering thug ..dont ya think ?

You were not there ..we were not there .so how can any one explain anything about those times if we were not there ? >.....we live in a very modern society (sure there are still wars etc) but that was a different time with a whole different society going on ..and as has been pointed out there were canabilistic Giants (wicked children of evil angels) running amuck back then ...and they persued the children of Israel all throughout their trek across the lands ....(Read up on WIKI about those peoples they were told to kill )
Not to mention as far as laws etc .. what has also been pointed out a few times...God set LIMITS on man because man went about just doing whatever he wanted to do ...God set down some laws ..rules and regulations ..(We may not think they are fair etc ) ...which we still have some of those laws to this day that may not seem like fair laws....If you did not put some rules down for your children to follow ..they would run amuck and not give a crap about consequences unless they were severe enough that they would not even want to go there ....(Which is why I am sure the laws were so strict ) .....in other words they were strict and saying like here is the very worse thing that will happen if you do this that or the other ....which if you thought your punishment would be that harsh you would think twice before doing it ....

Now remember that even on our books of laws there are still laws on the books where you can be hanged for stealing a horse .....does that mean that everyone who steals a horse will be hanged ? No ....it just means that was written in the law as the most severest of punishments for that crime .
I am sure though that since so many people know what is the MAXIMUM punishment for stealing a horse it will surely make them think twice before they go and steal that horse ..DONT YA THINK ?

Also as far as them (the Israelites) being told to take out every man woman and child when they went about going to their promised land ..
Well isnt that just about what the armies did who came into America to take the land that belonged to the Indians ? Why ? Because those Indians were SAVAGES and were not going to just go along with what was happening when we came to take their land ....and it was either kill or be killed .....Was it wrong what happened here in America too ? I dont know ..But we are here now and we are playing a huge role in this world ...and it was taken over by alot of savage blood shed going on (alot like the Israelites ) ...so I suppose it was just meant to be that way ...

I personally hate any form of violence so I do not condone any violence.
But I also know that I am not God and I am not in charge of this world and all these people in it and I was not there then (thank God) so I have no answers for why etc ../And I also know I cannot speak for GOD because his ways are not our ways ...and we cannot even comprehend what we are doing here and why we are here ...so I do not strain my brain to try and figure out or comprehend what happened WAY BACK WHEN ....
I live in the here and now and it is hard enough to even try and figure out what is happening in our time .....and it is also hard enough to try and figure out why we do things the way we do ..(so really it is a non issue at least to me on what they were doing then and why they were doing it ) ...........

Anyway this is really just my feeble attempt to explain away something I know nothing about (because I am not God and I cannot know the mind of God and I was not there at that time) ..
Just like we were not those first Americans who came to this land and was faced with wild savage Indians as we took over this land ..and set up camp here and put down many laws for the whole country to follow ....( I am pretty sure there are many laws we do not like that were here from our beginning in America ) ...............just because they are there does not mean they are all enforced with the MAXIMUM sentence ...

Indians? Heck, the good christians brought them peace & love, ya all know that.

First, they killed over a million of the unrestrainable ones; then they confiscated all their land (except a few tiny patches called reservations), then they outlawed their true religious belief/practices: Sun worship (this, in the land they declared 'freedom of religion').

Any others lovng thoughts? Nothing like Jehovah & jesu gettin' it on, and all their mindless rabble ready to kill for their truth, life, liberty, and freedom of worship (as long as it's christianity, yes?).

Sun worship is no long outlawed, but in bad disfavor, where the natives do not dare to admit to it (I have many native friends, thanks).

Short answer: Yes.

Long Answer: Yes, he was.

The title of this thread reminds me of the parable of the talents. You sound like the last of the 3 servants in this parable.

Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.

- Matthew 25

Is God terrible and vengeful? Yes of course but God is also loving and merciful. God is like a multi-faceted jewel and the light that comes off it varies depending on which angle you look at it from. If you wish to see God as terrible you will not be disappointed.

reply to post by dbates


Multi-faceted? More like bipolar! He's more evil than Satan at times.

reply to post by SS,Naga


One thing you are leaving out is that the Vatican and GW Bush etc ...believe that they are godmen of this earth and they are taking the law into their own hands for purposes of power and vain glory ..that was not what God had in mind for men to do ....in fact that was what God was trying to convey of what would happen when he told Adam and Eve not to eat of that fruit they ate from ....
This is what you get when you think you are gods ...
It is man trying to play God who are the wicked ones (Bringing wickedness upon themselves and on everyone under them) not GOD .

They are modern day Pharohs ....and we are modern day hebrews under their control (We are really back to square one arent we ?) ...


[edit on 5-12-2008 by Simplynoone]