Escaping Religious Images and Delusions

Originally posted by AlphaOmega814
Okay, if Jesus is the son of God, who determined that?
The council of Nicaea, that technically makes him an ordinary mortal.
Why is he held at a higher status than all the rest of us?
We all could be walking Jesus' but nobody calls us Divine or the son/daughter of God himself.

If you want the answer just google it and research it. You would be surprised at all the information available, in relation to your question.
King Jesus is not just found in the bible either, there are other historical records you research too. I used to have a few dozen books just on the Historicity of Jesus.

It won't hurt you to conduct your own investigation and see what you come up with. But set aside your personal prejudices and keep an unbiased open mind to all the facts, then judge for yourself.


[edit on 24/1/09 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by AlphaOmega814
Okay, if Jesus is the son of God, who determined that?
The council of Nicaea, that technically makes him an ordinary mortal.
Why is he held at a higher status than all the rest of us?
We all could be walking Jesus' but nobody calls us Divine or the son/daughter of God himself.

The lie here is that Jesus is, and that you are not. The lie is to keep you from realizing the truth of who you are. This is where they have to use manipulations. This is why they put you down in threads like these. Because if you actually knew the truth, then you would not serve the manipulators.

The difference between you and Jesus is that Jesus actually knew the truth. And because he knew it and showed others, he was killed for it. It was the father who spoke through him, the same father that is in you. The same thing can happen to you if you are able to see the truth. This is described In John 14:20, which is the moment you are actually saved. You won't have to take my word for it, or anyone elses either. On that day you will know it your self.

The pharisees plotted against him because they knew they would lose their power on earth. Those who worship the death of Jesus and not his life and what he showed see Jesus as a sacrifice of truth so that the lie of this world could live.

The only thing about dropping "self" is to realize the physical body is not your true self. If you focus on the material body, then that isn't yourself. You are your consciousness/soul. That is your true self. It is important to realize your true self, which has nothing to do with getting rid of ego or "self", but rather by finding your true self you will realize what is not you, and thus get rid of any false ego, or the false self(that you are your body, and without it "you" die).



[edit on 24-1-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by badmedia

 

This is why i love them... and have said it many times to many people.

Your Turth as authority thing makes no sense... sounds like some more religious ignorant babble.

"They must find it difficult...
Those who have taken authority as the truth,
Rather than truth as the authority." -G. Massey, Egyptologist

"Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using his memory." -Leonardo da Vinci

When you take the bible as fact and authority, then you begin to quote from your memory. When you dismiss the bible as babble, then you have done the same thing. You are dismissing it because you do not think it is an authority. In neither case are you using your intelligence, or speaking about any actual understandings. You completely dismissed everything as ignorant because I said something from the book. Same level of ignorance as those who accept it.

I look at the bible to find truth as well... unfortuantely it seems as though jesus may be the imaginary hero their religion needed to keep its members. Jesus said alot of wise things which is the exact contrary of the rest of the bible. Jesus is the only reason i still keep an afterlife as a strong possibility. Its a pitty that all of the words of jesus were throw out of the window by religious leaders every time they needed to kill some people to make more money.

Also just because wise words are said by a comicbook character... it doesnt make him real.

Do some reading on empathy. If you understood that then you may see how i know what i do.

Edit: its funny how you realize that the religious leaders a the time were distorting and confusing the population for evil, but you dont seem to realize they never left power... the whole time. The bible that you read... the churches you attend.. those were all things "allowed" by those that have been in power. Do you not see a possibility here.... if it only seems but such a slim chance to you.




[edit on 24-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

reply to post by badmedia


Stay on topic and stop attacking people...please.

Be nice.

Originally posted by John Matrix
reply to post by badmedia

 

Stay on topic and stop attacking people...please.

Be nice.

You really have some nerve.. and you wear your hypocrisy quite nicely I might add....

Jesus was not the begotten Son of G.d. Jesus was the illusion to draw people away from the truth... You do much the same. You feed people the illusions. I have watched as you use the truths that badmedia and I had
given out and you twist them into lies and feed them by the handfuls. I hope people are smarter than to bite into the garbage you are giving them. *shrugs*

Originally posted by Wertdagf
I look at the bible to find truth as well... unfortuantely it seems as though jesus may be the imaginary hero their religion needed to keep its members. Jesus said alot of wise things which is the exact contrary of the rest of the bible. Jesus is the only reason i still keep an afterlife as a strong possibility. Its a pitty that all of the words of jesus were throw out of the window by religious leaders every time they needed to kill some people to make more money.

Also just because wise words are said by a comicbook character... it doesnt make him real.

Do some reading on empathy. If you understood that then you may see how i know what i do.

Does it matter if Jesus is real or not? It seriously doesn't. If you worry about such things, then you are only worrying about the idol. You are missing the important things that he says this is true.

You could flat out prove and convince me that Jesus is fake and it wouldn't change my beliefs at all. Either way, I can see the father is speaking through him. Even if it is just a writer telling the story, the father and truth is being spoken in that things attributed to Jesus.

Ever seen the movie the matrix? Is it technically real? No. But does it speak truth of another level in many different ways? YES! If I say the matrix is real, I certainly don't mean that neo is fighting the machines literally. I mean it is real when you are able to apply the symbolism to todays world. And I'm certainly not going to let some nerd who is stuck on the action, or runs around saying believe in neo! to take the wisdom contained away from me.

And you aren't even meant to take Jesus as so literal. There are "keys" in the verses. 1 such key is that Jesus says he is the truth, the way and the light. What this means is that for full meaning you can replace Jesus for these things. When Jesus says only by him can you come to the father, he is saying only by truth can you come to the father.

If the comic book character speaks wisdom, is the wisdom also false if the character isn't real? What is more important? The wisdom or the character?

The focus on the idol is done for manipulation purposes. If you focus on the idol you are unable to actually see that what he says of himself is also true of you if you find the father within. This is why people aren't supposed to create idols in the first place.



[edit on 24-1-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


You have misunderstood the way I use the term "Self". Please read the OP carefully, and very slowly.

Your consciousness, soul, mind, heart, and your will are effected by the sin nature which I call "Self" or the "Old Man" Carnal Mind, etc.
When you lived without the Spirit of God you lived for the Spirit of this World, and your Soul was filled with darkness and the stains of sin.

But now if you have the Spirit of God, your soul will be cleaned and transformed of all the sinful habits of the old sin nature, or Self, that left their marks on your soul, mind, consciousness, subconscious mind, heart, etc. That cleansing process takes time and you have to live according to the Spirit of God for this process to work.

So You never sell your soul as you have said a few times. No one asks you to do that. You cleanse your soul.

reply to post by badmedia


I know this badmedia. i see the symbolism... even though it may have been unintentional. The design of infinity creates casuality... and casuality creates the design of infinity. There is no free will in this infinite universe... its all cause and effect. We are all products of our perspectives in casuality...

It isnt a man on a cloud granting wishes... the father is nothing more than a fractal. Its a moon... a sun... a rock poking out the side of a mountian. All placed there by time... all following the design of infinity. Its taken millions of years for these things to come to pass...... there are trillions of other life habitable planets in this universe. All possibly in varying stages of development. ALL a part of GOD/causality... all placed there through time... following the design of inifinity.

reply to post by justamomma



Be nice!


[edit on 25/1/09 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by badmedia

 

I know this badmedia. i see the symbolism... even though it may have been unintentional. The design of infinity creates casuality... and casuality creates the design of infinity. There is no free will in this infinite universe... its all cause and effect. We are all products of our perspectives in casuality...

It isnt a man on a cloud granting wishes... the father is nothing more than a fractal. Its a moon... a sun... a rock poking out the side of a mountian. All placed there by time... all following the design of infinity. Its taken millions of years for these things to come to pass...... there are trillions of other life habitable planets in this universe. All possibly in varying stages of development. ALL a part of GOD/causality... all placed there through time... following the design of inifinity.

Causality is the law of creation. This is logic. Creation and things do follow causality. Because I applied force to the ball, the ball goes through the air. This is causality. Science works on this level, and is good for it. I'm a programmer, so everything I create in programming is all a result of casuality. It's all "If this happens, then do this, else do this. While this is happening, do this. For each item here, do this". And so on. All causality. I'd be in for a nightmare if my programs just decided to not follow the logic. But they have no choice, so they do.

In casuality, there is no choice or free will. This allows us to do things like make rockets. We can calculate where they will go because there is no choice in the matter. If the rockets had choice, then who knows where they will end up. Not very useful.

Only if you see yourself as being a part of this world do you think in such ways. You see yourself as being your body, that you mind is your brain, and that being from this casuality creation, you must also. But your consciousness is not from this creation. What you truly are is not of this creation, it is of god. This is described in genesis. It talks about god makes all of creation, and then the spirit of god comes in and fills creation to bring it life. Thus, the pure consciousness of god comes in and gives it consciousness. When you realize this, then you will no longer see yourself as a body, and thus see yourself as only consciousness in a vessel, and then you gotten rid of the false self.

People argue because in the bible, it says Joseph is not the father of Jesus, but then when it gives the line, it has Jesus in the line of Joseph. And there is also argument over son of man, vs son of god. These are easily explained with understanding.

Jesus as son of man is the son of Mary and Joseph. As son of man, he is flesh. He has a fleshly body, which can be killed. As son of man, Jesus identifies self as flesh(he has to in order to be here). Son of god however comes from a virgin birth. Because it is not flesh. It is consciousness/soul. There is only 1 father for soul/consciousness. When Jesus identifies with the father, then this is his only true father, and so the virgin birth.

To realize this is to be born again, or to be born from the virgin, when you realize the true father and so on.

Which self are you identifying with? The flesh or the soul?

Consciousness is what allows you "to be", what makes you aware. It can not be created from causality, this is why science avoids it. In science, consciousness is called randomness.

The only thing that can create something out of nothing is consciousness. What is created is a thought. You are the thinker, not the thought. I think, therefore I AM. I AM! I come in the name of the one known as I AM!

I will have to write up that free will post. It's just kind of like writing a paper, so I've been procrastinating.



[edit on 25-1-2009 by badmedia]

Originally posted by John Matrix
reply to post by justamomma

 

You attack me and accuse, calling me a liar and manipulater. Edit your post, or I will complain.

Make your point on topic, and do it without attacking people.

Be nice!

Not even a chance... complain away! It is true and I stand by what I said... I will be happy to direct whomever you complain to the posts you have made to others.

You are twisting truths that you had made fun of within the last 3 weeks. YOu mocked us and now you are here twisting what we said and my guess is that you could see there were people who desperate for the truth and so you twisted it...

This thread is full of hypocritical statements made by you... you made fun of me in my thread and now you say the same things, only in a different light? I have nothing to apologize for. tsk tsk.

Edited to add: Oh, and yet another twisting of yours I should address. I wasn't attacking "people" ... I was calling *you* out. Own up to your words.

[edit on 25-1-2009 by justamomma]

To realize this is to be born again, or to be born from the virgin, when you realize the true father and so on. Which self are you identifying with? The flesh or the soul? Consciousness is what allows you "to be", what makes you aware. It can not be created from causality, this is why science avoids it. In science, consciousness is called randomness. The only thing that can create something out of nothing is consciousness. What is created is a thought. You are the thinker, not the thought. I think, therefore I AM. I AM! I come in the name of the one known as I AM! I will have to write up that free will post. It's just kind of like writing a paper, so I've been procrastinating.

That virgin birth thing is a good explination of somthing that may be all made up to begin with.

Just saying i think therefore i am does NOT prove that conciousness isnt a product of causality. It is possible that it is all a product of design of this universe and that it forms without attention or help by a greater being.

It is also possible that Conciousness is some magical outside force that becomes entangled in flesh which gives you a soul and spirit wings to fly and hug the father, or what ever religious babble you want to throw in.

Even if conciousness is outside of reality,,, that does not mean that your soul outside of this reality is not formed through casuality by all of its previous lives in the next level of determinism.

We have no solid proof for either possibility... all i have that separate us in what conclusion we find more probable is my empathy. I can see emotions in people from signals they dont realize they are giving. I see how expreiances shape emotions and thoughts. I see how the emotions that are unexpressed effect those people later in life. I see how childhood experaince influence decisions years later without the "thinker" realizing it.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
That virgin birth thing is a good explination of somthing that may be all made up to begin with.

Just saying i think therefore i am does NOT prove that conciousness isnt a product of causality. It is possible that it is all a product of design of this universe and that it forms without attention or help by a greater being.

It is also possible that Conciousness is some magical outside force that becomes entangled in flesh which gives you a soul and spirit wings to fly and hug the father, or what ever religious babble you want to throw in.

Even if conciousness is outside of reality,,, that does not mean that your soul outside of this reality is not formed through casuality by all of its previous lives in the next level of determinism.

We have no solid proof for either possibility... all i have that separate us in what conclusion we find more probable is my empathy. I can see emotions in people from signals they dont realize they are giving. I see how expreiances shape emotions and thoughts. I see how the emotions that are unexpressed effect those people later in life. I see how childhood experaince influence decisions years later without the "thinker" realizing it.

What is the word love? It is word/symbol/sound/wave/pattern that is used to describe something that isn't physical. The word itself is dead, and used to express things which aren't.

The words of the bible are used to give understanding. You are still looking at only the literal word and rejecting it because of that, which is no different than those who accept the literal word. Am I really talking about a physical thing? No. I am showing you the understanding the bible is showing. When they talk about this, this is what it means.

1+1=2. Is true right? Or is 1+1=2 not an expression of A+B=C? And so the bible is like a literal version of an expression. It is important to see beyond the literal word and see what is being shown, and then you can see how it applies to you. Christians run around blind, yelling 1+1=2 and it's the truth! and because they have no real understanding, they have no clue 1+2=3, and they don't know how to "add". They do not understand A+B=C. This is how the "keys" of the bible work. Because when you have understanding, then you are able to exchange those keys/words and see the truth beyond the literal. This is why they say you can't understand the bible without the holy spirit, because you won't have the understanding needed to see the keys and such. Unable to see beyond the literal.

And it is on the literal level that you "debunk", and for me to try to argue against it is like me trying to argue with someone over if the Matrix is real. I have little interest in defending the dogmatic and literal views of mainstream Christians, or those who can only see 1+1=2 and not A+B=C. So if you are going to argue on that level, not much I can say. What you say about the virgin birth part was not based on the understanding I gave you, instead you tried to reduce it down to the literal meaning.

If you are looking for truth, then you must look for the truth in what people say and show. If you look for only ways of dismissing what they say, you do not actually look for the truth. The artist tells a lie in order to reveal the truth, and if you want to focus on the lie and point it out, then not much to talk about really. If you want to look for the understanding, then there is much to talk about.








[edit on 25-1-2009 by badmedia]

reply to post by badmedia


Love is physical.... it is chemical. So is sadness... anger... they are all chemicals in your brain that are released by stimulus from your enviroment. which form your personality... everything you are is a causal production of chemicals.

Do you still believe that demons are real? that satan is real? where does sybolism stop and literal begin? You seem to have picked and choosed what you would take as figurative and literal... why do you still speak of satan as a person then?

What i see in the bible is a bunch of people suffering who needed something to justify it with... something as a reward.

Is it not then possible that even your GOD is figurative? And that i have been right all along?

[edit on 25-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

Originally posted by Wertdagf
Love is physical.... it is chemical. So is sadness... anger... they are all chemicals in your brain that are released by stimulus from your enviroment. which form your personality... everything you are is a causal production of chemicals.

Do you still believe that demons are real? that satan is real? where does sybolism stop and literal begin? You seem to have picked and choosed what you would take as figurative and literal... why do you still speak of satan as a person then?

What i see in the bible is a bunch of people suffering who needed something to justify it with... something as a reward.

Is it not then possible that even your GOD is figurative? And that i have been right all along?

Ok fine, they are just chemicals. To whom or what are they presented to? What "feels" them? To what are the senses presenting things to? YOU. You have just proven that you believe yourself to be nothing but of this world. The flesh only. But to what are these things presented too? What is observing all of this?

I am not figurative. Are you?

reply to post by badmedia


So your proving that the magical god and satan talked about in the bible are not figurative story telling devices because you yourself are not figurative??? where is the logic in that... seems more like a wounded bird flopping around.

What makes me feel happy or sad is based on what encourages growth in understanding or inhibits it. good and evil. These are definitions created in my mind by the thousands of experainces i have understood which extend beyond my own life with my empathy.

I choose to deny ignorance... you know nothing beyond this reality, pretending to do so would be quite a grand delusion. You claim the things that dont support your delusion as figurative... and those that do as litteral.. all why refusing to admit that you are possibly wrong.

Atleast i can stand here and say that conciousness may exist outside of this reality, i just dont have any proof. Using a book full of holes to justify something like that beyond this reality is a stretch.

What i do have proof of is how enviroment creates our personalitys... how stimulus creates emotion. I have proof of how experainces shape our thoughts and choices.

I hope there is an afterlife just like i have said many times.




[edit on 25-1-2009 by Wertdagf]

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by AlphaOmega814
Okay, if Jesus is the son of God, who determined that?
The council of Nicaea, that technically makes him an ordinary mortal.
Why is he held at a higher status than all the rest of us?
We all could be walking Jesus' but nobody calls us Divine or the son/daughter of God himself.

The lie here is that Jesus is, and that you are not. The lie is to keep you from realizing the truth of who you are. This is where they have to use manipulations. This is why they put you down in threads like these. Because if you actually knew the truth, then you would not serve the manipulators.

The difference between you and Jesus is that Jesus actually knew the truth. And because he knew it and showed others, he was killed for it. It was the father who spoke through him, the same father that is in you. The same thing can happen to you if you are able to see the truth. This is described In John 14:20, which is the moment you are actually saved. You won't have to take my word for it, or anyone elses either. On that day you will know it your self.

The pharisees plotted against him because they knew they would lose their power on earth. Those who worship the death of Jesus and not his life and what he showed see Jesus as a sacrifice of truth so that the lie of this world could live.

The only thing about dropping "self" is to realize the physical body is not your true self. If you focus on the material body, then that isn't yourself. You are your consciousness/soul. That is your true self. It is important to realize your true self, which has nothing to do with getting rid of ego or "self", but rather by finding your true self you will realize what is not you, and thus get rid of any false ego, or the false self(that you are your body, and without it "you" die).



[edit on 24-1-2009 by badmedia]

The greatest delusion is to imagine that God is outside of oneself ,somewhere out there. I totally agree with your viewpoint badmedia. Once you realize that your identity is not confined to your physical body, and are conscious that you are much more than that body, the ego becomes your own personal puppet that you can use as you wish for the betterment of mankind. He is yourguy.Your motives are always pure because they emerge from your Heart which is aligned with the father's will. You are then free from delusion because all your actions and words are inspired from beyond your ego. Words flow through you and not from you. You then stand detached from results, and dispassion is your constant companion.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
So your proving that the magical god and satan talked about in the bible are not figurative story telling devices because you yourself are not figurative??? where is the logic in that... seems more like a wounded bird flopping around.

What makes me feel happy or sad is based on what encourages growth in understanding or inhibits it. good and evil. These are definitions created in my mind by the thousands of experainces i have understood which extend beyond my own life with my empathy.

I choose to deny ignorance... you know nothing beyond this reality, pretending to do so would be quite a grand delusion. You claim the things that dont support your delusion as figurative... and those that do as litteral.. all why refusing to admit that you are possibly wrong.

Atleast i can stand here and say that conciousness may exist outside of this reality, i just dont have any proof. Using a book full of holes to justify something like that beyond this reality is a stretch.

What i do have proof of is how enviroment creates our personalitys... how stimulus creates emotion. I have proof of how experainces shape our thoughts and choices.

I hope there is an afterlife just like i have said many times.

Nothing really magical about it. I am god, and I am arguing with myself(you). The one you seek is within you.

Creation is logical. You see the way you do because you associate yourself with creation and as being part of creation. There isn't much I can say that is going to change your mind as long as you associate yourself as being only flesh. It is pointless for me to even try. I'd be better off trying to teach a blind man what the color blue looks like.

Should the day come when you see the father that is inside you, John 14:20, then maybe you can understand. If you want to look out into creation and logic for god, then you aren't going to find it. Because there is nothing but logic and casuality out there. If you want to find god, look within.

There is no logic that can create consciousness. Consciousness creates logic, not the other way around. Prove otherwise and I'll make you rich because you have the power to create real intelligence, not just artificial intelligence. Of course, there is no such logic, but whatever. It's the reason every religion says no logic can ever explain God. Same reason science, the study of logic/casuality avoids it and so on.

You have no proof of environment creating any personalities. You are just making claims. For every example you can find examples of the opposite. The entire branch of Science called psychology is nothing more than the study of behavioral patterns, which they are then able to classify and group things into.

What is the only thing that can create something out of nothing? Thought. Where does thought come from? Consciousness. What is god? Pure consciousness and the sum of all consciousness is the world. The one and only observer.

reply to post by badmedia

You have no proof of environment creating any personalities. You are just making claims. For every example you can find examples of the opposite. The entire branch of Science called psychology is nothing more than the study of behavioral patterns, which they are then able to classify and group things into.

This is why you cant understand. Untill you know how your enviroment created your personality then you cannot know another. This is why it says to know yourself first. Do you know what empathy is? It may be the only way to truley udnerstanding how experainces create our personalitys.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by badmedia

 

This is why you cant understand. Untill you know how your enviroment created your personality then you cannot know another. This is why it says to know yourself first. Do you know what empathy is? It may be the only way to truley udnerstanding how experainces create our personalitys.

Environment determines the experience, it doesn't define that which is experiencing it. You can let your experience and culture define you, but it is a choice you made each and every time.

We all have our own individual and unique experience. Everyone will think they are right because of this. But I am talking about things that are beyond the unique experience. Things which can be understood but not seen. I understand the idea that everything was decided at the start and so on.

As I said, you look out into the logic/creation for something that is within. You can keep looking out there if you want. Deny and so on all you want, such is part of the free will you claim to not have. Part of free will is the will to give it away. Have fun with that.