Escaping Religious Images and Delusions

Originally posted by John Matrix

I set before you the two ways of living. Which one do you think is responsible for all the crime and corruption? Self, or the one's that live by the Spirit of God?

But John...... these ways have always been set before the people of earth and most don't want to hear it. Crime and corruption has existed from the Garden of Eden until now and will continue until all this crap comes to a head.

We break down into two groups - those with experiences and those without. The Bible is like a template of experiences of the things that we can expect to happen, but if people aren't open to the mysteries - God is not going to reveal himself to them. Jesus reveals himself to those who are worthy. Most are not worthy because they neglect their maker. Disaster can be anywhere and everywhere and the people cry in their misery but most fail to cry out to him - to repent of their neglect and ignorance of the things they can't see because they failed from the beginning to earnestly seek his face.

The work of the Holy Spirit is to make a people ready for God but if people don't start recognizing the wonders and signs for what they are - confusion will run rampant and nothing is going to get accomplished.

Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would teach us all things - so what has the Spirit taught you? What secrets can you share to advance this kingdom besides the fact that we should live by his Holy Spirit? That's a no-brainer - but if people haven't had experiences they aren't going to get it.

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct


I agree with all that you said. But this message is not really meant for people that are bent against God, it is directed at belivers who worship false images of Jesus and probably don't even know they are doing it. My hope is that after reading the OP that they begin to research scriptures for themselves to see if what I say has merit.

What I have observed through the Spirit is that many Christians are not unchanged, seem to get more worldly and selfish, and are not partaking in the Divine Nature. I believe it's because they are centering their thoughts on the creature rather than the creator. In other words, they are looking to false images of Jesus that they have in their minds, rather than the Spiritual image which is the Divine Nature.

The most cruel, heartless and callous people I have ever known are those people that warm church pews three or four times per week, and have done so for years. This ought not to be. Something is wrong because the Way is so plain and simple yet so many are lacking the Divine Nature of God and the Power to "Love your neighbor as yourself". So I feel moved to say what I have to say.




[edit on 24/1/09 by John Matrix]

After reading your view this came to mind:

John Wesley Quotes...

"Give me one hundred men who fear nothing but sin and desire nothing but God, and I care not whether they be clergyman or laymen, they alone will shake the gates of Hell and set up the kingdom of Heaven upon the earth.”

[edit on 24-1-2009 by Siren]

I must admit I am disappointed in the ultimate premise of the thread. As I read along I just knew it would end up this was largely of the biblical take on god and Jesus. I don't think my post will be off topic, but I invested the time in reading the whole thread and have some thoughts.

Images and Delusions. What if the primary delusion is the need for the salvation of a persons soul or spirit. The notion of Original Sin is what places all mankind in the need of a savior and separates man from god, so say its proponents. Yet the concept that the creator of a universe so large that we are only beginning to comprehend would send billions of souls into the great set up is ludicrous. We are sparks of creation, like every thing in the universe and time, thoughts of the Creator bought forth into physical reality. (The means by which this happened is not important)

We exist to experience physically, emotionally and spiritually. If none are in need of a spiritual rebirth at the age of mental ability to comprehend the idea of salvation, then why did Jesus himself reference the need for us to be childlike? All humans are spiritual beings, some are more able to sense things of the spirit, more open, love flows easier to them. We are each here as individuals on the path of development, as we are naturally driven to develop in the physical so too in the spiritual.

If no need for a savior, then what is Jesus role, who is he if not the Savior of mankind. Perhaps he is the firstborn of all creation, I happen to think so. But if not a savior, most certainly he was here as a teacher, like so many others that presented in human history and society. He taught the kingdom of God is within. The message was a message of spirit not organization of religious teachings, doctrines, dogma and hierarchy. In fact the one and only thing Jesus spoke very harshly to and of were RELIGIOUS LEADERS.

I know that my ideas, are totally different from the flow of the thread, but I had to throw in my two cents. Delusions and Images......

Angry vengeful god
one book, one way, one savior
blood sacrifice
sin...proper translation missing the mark
Jesus as the only way to god

What if indeed, these are the images and delusions???? I think so

reply to post by redhead57


Hi Redhead

Just wanted to give you a star, I think you brought great points to this thread.

I see this thread no different then any other religious belief, people think that words like humility, meekness ect....shows they have a deeper understanding of something, but I find this not to be so all the time. Especially when the idea of a divine hate exists for the believer.

If there is love and hate, wrath and peace in a divine nature....then what is so divine about it? What makes that nature differ from mans nature? If man believes a divine nature does have hate, anger, wrath....then surely man will continue to make excuses for man acting in the same nature when it comes to thinking they can act in these way for a Divine way. I do not see it this way, I do not think we can fight evil with hate and I dont find that a Divine nature would fight evil with hate either. But always, each to their own.

Just because a Christian does see that images are not righteous, doesn't mean they are still not influenced by a delusion.

Peace to all,
LV

reply to post by John Matrix


John,

Do you believe there is a point that we stop loving our neighbor?

How does one consistently show a divine nature of love and peace if they go to war and kill?

My point to all of the posts I have made here is that your using certain words that cover a religious delusion.

You speak of against religious delusions....but then you preach them.

How is it you know divine nature can hate anything?

If ones child grows up to not be what the parents hoped them to be, does the parent disown that child? Does the parent stop loving that child?

How are you not partaking in religious delusions, because I do not see that you are doing this. So I see this thread having no merit except bringing people attention by the title, but then preaching the normal mainstream belief.

I found it frustrating that you used the 'religious delusions' in the title, but yet, your view is not new or unique.

Just a new title for the same ol same

I dont like to feel like Im being ugly, but I also dont like people placing a false cover on something when to find nothing new within the book.

Just because there have always been religious fold that do not live a humble life does not make the ones that point this out any more so filled with wisdom.

My best intentions, even if you dont think they are,
Peace to you,
LV

Originally posted by Siren
After reading your view this came to mind:

John Wesley Quotes...

"Give me one hundred men who fear nothing but sin and desire nothing but God, and I care not whether they be clergyman or laymen, they alone will shake the gates of Hell and set up the kingdom of Heaven upon the earth.”

Amen for that brother....and a star.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by redhead57

 

If there is love and hate, wrath and peace in a divine nature....then what is so divine about it? What makes that nature differ from mans nature? If man believes a divine nature does have hate, anger, wrath....then surely man will continue to make excuses for man acting in the same nature when it comes to thinking they can act in these way for a Divine way. I do not see it this way, I do not think we can fight evil with hate and I dont find that a Divine nature would fight evil with hate either. But always, each to their own.


Peace to all,
LV

First off thanks for giving me my first star.

Herein is my issue with much of the history of the Jewish nation as written in the OT. I find they are blaming their god for their own desire for conquest and to wipe out the peaceful people of a matriarchal and agricultural societies that were in "their" land of milk and honey. Like so much religious mythology, their gods were to blame for their carnage upon their fellow man. What makes Joshua's order that every living thing in the city of Jericho be delivered to the sword, old and young, male and female any less horrific than the human sacrifice of the ancient Mayan's to their gods? Nothing but tradition.

If we have natural and instinctual love for our offspring for they are a part of us and we are mere humans, how much more the love of the Creator for his? I have a couple of very difficult kids, one in prison for being stupid, but never no matter what would I burn them for eternity or even one minute. Surely we can expect far more of the love of this god the christians speak so much of. Lest I not be fair, the Jewish faith and the Islamic too have these basic notions of sin and punishment from the pages of the same texts and others.

red

Originally posted by redhead57
Images and Delusions. What if the primary delusion is the need for the salvation of a persons soul or spirit. The notion of Original Sin is what places all mankind in the need of a savior and separates man from god, so say its proponents. Yet the concept that the creator of a universe so large that we are only beginning to comprehend would send billions of souls into the great set up is ludicrous. We are sparks of creation, like every thing in the universe and time, thoughts of the Creator bought forth into physical reality. (The means by which this happened is not important)

You are entitled to believe all of that. As for me, I see the natural man as living a soulish sefish existance while being infatuated by the Spirit of the World. I see the natural or "Self Life" as a life of rebellion against the Spirit of God.

We exist to experience physically, emotionally and spiritually. If none are in need of a spiritual rebirth at the age of mental ability to comprehend the idea of salvation, then why did Jesus himself reference the need for us to be childlike?

Hmmm? I don't understand the question because I did not make that claim. I believe Spiritual rebirth is absolutely necessary.

All humans are spiritual beings, some are more able to sense things of the spirit, more open, love flows easier to them. We are each here as individuals on the path of development, as we are naturally driven to develop in the physical so too in the spiritual.

True, but the humans that do not have a rebirth of the Spirit of God cannot understand the things of God and can only live for the Spirit of this World, with all it's false images, delusions, temporal pleasures, pain and suffering etc.

If no need for a savior, then what is Jesus role, who is he if not the Savior of mankind. Perhaps he is the firstborn of all creation, I happen to think so. But if not a savior, most certainly he was here as a teacher, like so many others that presented in human history and society. He taught the kingdom of God is within. The message was a message of spirit not organization of religious teachings, doctrines, dogma and hierarchy. In fact the one and only thing Jesus spoke very harshly to and of were RELIGIOUS LEADERS.

Jesus was the savior, the Divine Nature incarnate, who died, was raised from death, glorified, and ascended to Heaven to sit at the right hand of the Father. I see nothing in what I said that contradicts your beliefs.

I know that my ideas, are totally different from the flow of the thread, but I had to throw in my two cents. Delusions and Images......

Angry vengeful god
one book, one way, one savior
blood sacrifice
sin...proper translation missing the mark
Jesus as the only way to god

What if indeed, these are the images and delusions???? I think so

A delusion is a false belief grounded on deception. To limit God to a book, is referred to as bible-idolatry.
I agree there is one bible, one way and one savior.
One does not need to know anything about blood sacrifices to be saved.
Jesus is the only way, but it is not the physical image of Jesus one might have in their mind, or the man Jesus(creature), it is the Divine Nature of Jesus in which we find the Power of God for salvation and which leads us to spiritual growth and bearing spiritual fruit.

To behonest, I don't find your comments to be all that forthright. They are somewhat confusing and send a mixed message.

[edit on 24/1/09 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by John Matrix

 

John,

Do you believe there is a point that we stop loving our neighbor?

No. But if you plan to throw at me some crazy situation where one's neighbor is attacking you, and you are forced to defend yourself, and in the process the neighbor dies, I will tell you that in those situations, killing someone in self defence, or in defence of one's wife and children, or in defence of any innocent person, those situations have nothing to do with whether or not you love your neighbour. We are not to be fools and allow people to use us. It would be ignorant and foolish to allow someone to hurt you because of a false understanding of Love. Your Love for neighbor does not give anyone an opening to abuse you.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by John Matrix

 

John,
How does one consistently show a divine nature of love and peace if they go to war and kill?

Many people have asked this question thoughout the centuries. I suggest that you search Google for your answer. There are many sites that explain this.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by John Matrix

 

John,

How is it you know divine nature can hate anything?

As I told you already, this was really something I had in mind for another discussion.

I will say this, it is proper to HATE that which is at ENMITY to the Spirit of God. Ever read,

"Hate evil and love good"?

I must not have made myself very clear because the very things that I personally do not accept you say we are in agreement with so I will clarify.

I do not believe man is in need of salvation or any sort of spiritual rebirth,

hence I do not believe Jesus is the savior of the world.

I believe he was a teacher among many other teachers that have come to earth such as Buddha.

I do not accept Original Sin there fore the entire premise of salvation and separation from god has no meaning to me.

I do however find that if one chooses any particular path that helps them to become a more loving person it is beneficial. Religions such as Christianity and Islam that separate themselves from non believers and proclaim theirs as the ONLY way to salvation IMHO are wrong and divisive and part of what has kept man killing and dominating man from the very beginning.

I think I clearly stated my point. Though I have no particular issues with you or your beliefs, we stand worlds apart on the basics.

reply to post by John Matrix


That which you focus on you feed. If you feed what you perceive as evil with more evil/hatred, you are part of the problem rather than the solution. Instead focus on love and you become part of the solution.

For example: To hate the aggressor in war is to feed that energy, to love them and to send them loving energy is far more beneficial than to send more hatred. To defend yourself when your life is threatened directly is instinct, to beat the person to death in a rage once your safety is assured is hatred. Big difference.

Focus on sin and the evil in the world and your world is dark and cloudy, focus on love and give that energy out to even that in the world that is dark is clear and bright.

Doing that in all circumstances, well that is where we are all hoping to be. No one does it perfectly but if we all keep working towards that how much better the world would be.

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
How are you not partaking in religious delusions, because I do not see that you are doing this. So I see this thread having no merit except bringing people attention by the title, but then preaching the normal mainstream belief.

You see a lot for having never met me.

I found it frustrating that you used the 'religious delusions' in the title, but yet, your view is not new or unique.

Oh! Sorry this is not that something new that you hoped for.
Perhaps you had a more difficult path in mind. Something that tickled your ears and intellect.

I dont like to feel like Im being ugly, but I also dont like people placing a false cover on something when to find nothing new within the book.

Some opinions not kept to one's self can indeed be ugly.

Just because there have always been religious fold that do not live a humble life does not make the ones that point this out any more so filled with wisdom.

It's so simple a child can understand, and it has nothing to do with religion. What I wrote about transcends all religions. I never said you have to like what I said or believe it.

My best intentions, even if you dont think they are,
Peace to you,
LV

The OP is made with my best intentions, even though you turn it around and malign the message and the messenger.

Originally posted by redhead57
I do not accept Original Sin there fore the entire premise of salvation and separation from god has no meaning to me.

Then you have no need to escape any false religious delusions and images of Christ.

Others might get something from what I have to say. Let them decide. Don't try to decide for them.

Have a nice day?

Originally posted by redhead57
reply to post by John Matrix

 

That which you focus on you feed. If you feed what you perceive as evil with more evil/hatred, you are part of the problem rather than the solution. Instead focus on love and you become part of the solution.

Hate evil and Love Good.
If an Evil nation attacks a Godly nation by murdering innocent people, I will recommened that they call you to Love the evil enemy to death on the front lines.

Have a nice day!

We all realize demons dont exist to right? Hopefully everyone realizes that those stage shows are fake and for the ignorant.

Originally posted by redhead57

Focus on sin and the evil in the world and your world is dark and cloudy, focus on love and give that energy out to even that in the world that is dark is clear and bright.

Right, which is what I said exactly!! To live according to self and the spirit of the world, is denying the the life and Spirit of God in you. OR, to live by the spirit, you will not fulfill the desires of the old man!!
Same thing, just different wording.

Why did you not see that?

Originally posted by Wertdagf
We all realize demons dont exist to right? Hopefully everyone realizes that those stage shows are fake and for the ignorant.

I see demons as existing in a realm that manifests through thoughts.

I will start my explanation with Mr. Fool because Mr. Fool says in his heart that there is no God.
Mr.Fool lives for the Kingdom of Self and rejects the Kingdom of Heaven. Mr.Fool is sleeping because he has not accepted the spiritual awakening within him.
Mr. Fool lives for the Spirit of this World and he is subject to many delusions that keep him in his sleep and dream state.
Mr. Demon comes along and plants an evil seed(thought) in Mr. Fools mind.
Mr. Fool begins to entertain the evil thought, which begins to validate the evil thought and make it grow.
Thoughts have magnetism and gravity, so other evil thoughts become attracted to the evil thought that was planted by Mr.Demon, and now Mr. Fool becomes even more of a fool for entertaining the evil thought and making it grow. Soon the little seed planted by Mr.Demon becomes a large tree with many fractal thoughts joined to it. Then one Day Mr. Fool goes postal and Kills a bunch of innocent people. Poor Mr. Fool right?
And the Demons are released into the consciousness of the Universe to freely find the next Mr. Fool.

Mr. Believer Lives by the Spirit and has put on the whole "Armour of God". Mr. Demon , His Father of Lies: Mr. Satan, Mr. Lucifer, Mr. Devil; has no power over Mr. Believer.

Hopefully that helps explain how Demons are really just thoughts that effect the mind of Fools.


[edit on 24/1/09 by John Matrix]