Avalon – Gateway to Annwn – Celtic Underworld 'Land of the Dead' believed found.

Always good to see a thread on Wales. Travelled thru many time the most recently in October.

Many cultures assign portals and passages to different worlds or worlds of the dead, usually in creepy nasty places which before science would have appeared very odd indeed. Caves, volcanic activity, swamps and island off shore or in lakes were common. The Romans felt that near the Phlegraean Fields the Volcana Solfatara was an entry to hell.




To the entry of hell

The Japanese have Jigokudani, famous for the snow apes but also as hell valley

etc

(image tags)

[edit on Fri Jan 23 2009 by Jbird]

reply to post by vonspurter

Hold on to your torque but it seems that, genetically, Britons are linked more to the Basque people than the Celts.

"But the English still derive most of their current gene pool from the same early Basque source as the Irish, Welsh and Scots. These figures are at odds with the modern perceptions of Celtic and Anglo-Saxon ethnicity based on more recent invasions. There were many later invasions, as well as less violent immigrations, and each left a genetic signal, but no individual event contributed much more than 5 per cent to our modern genetic mix."

See Myths of British Ancestry in Prospect Magazine. www.prospect-magazine.co.uk...


Mod Note: External Source Tags – Please Review This Link.

[edit on Fri Jan 23 2009 by Jbird]

Vonspurter great find Bach S+F from me, Cwmru Am Byth!

As long as we win the first game eh

Being of 100% Celtic and mainly Welsh Heritage and living in God's own great land itself I do, as a famous Pop Song stated recently "Wake up every morning and Thank the Lord I am Welsh"

I am sure sometimes too the long grammatical and very padded out posts I sometimes contribute may hint at this rich and flowery and indeed poetic, past rising in my genes

I am also a bit of an Arthurian and Glastonbury Obsessive etc.

So for those who don't know just to briefly explain the Mabinogion in a very light sketch, and give some Facts I am sure many don't know to dovetail with your OP.

The Mabinogion or Mabinogi name given was actually penned by an English Lady of literary research who seems to have made a Mistake, the name is only in the four branches of such said works, or the rest of the Welsh Romances, comprising the Eleven Stories collectively known as the Mabinogion, or even their allied Irish ones just Once and seems to have come from the said such lady called Lady Guest I think its Charlotte.

She created it from an misunderstanding of the phrase as a plural of mabogi, which is spoken as Mabynnogyon. This was a descriptive way or grouping together the Four Branches you mention in your Op in folklore, but as the Mabinogion in a modern understanding contains the welsh Romances as well as the four Branches you mention, it is infact an middle ages error that has never been resolved!

So what does the Mabinogion contain, well for many who know Arthur and the stories it is the seed of this myth, and Geoffrey of Monmouth is the man who added the rounded tables and merged other things such as one of the romances of the Lady of the lake into one medieval Romantic novel that, swept Europe, and is truly the font of the Arthur as understood by the masses and described in hollywood fiction.

The true Mabinogion, and therefore containing as well the Arthur stories as a part of it is sourced by Lady Guest from two books called the Red Book and the White Book which were the laying down of ancient oral stories told and recounted, acted out in communities well before being written down. This is keeping with the traditional Welsh custom of passing information on in an Oral manner from the Druidic roots, when entire schools and centres of learning, levels of recognition were taught, and conveyed with no Written material. When the Normans and Romans invaded the UK well before these books were written, even though Wales never fell like England to the invaders, when parts of the south were occupied, a favourite genocidal habit of both the Romans and Normans was to find the Druids of the community, that is the Shaman, Keepers of knowledge, tradition , History and healing and cut out their tongues.

This practise obviously had a massive impact on the Welsh and Druidic culture and much knowledge was lost. There is even some evidence that the original Welsh tongue, is one if not the oldest official language in the world, though it is open to conjecture.

So back on topic, lol see what I mean this Lady Charlotte took the two welsh collections of "The White Book of Rhydderch" (Llyfr Gwyn Rhyddersch)
& "The Red Book of Hergest" (Llyfr Coch Hergest) written about 1310 & 1400 respectively. The Red one is in Jesus College Oxford still intact and the White one in the Library of Wales if anyone would like to see them.

It appears that they were definately being spoken at Least 1100 AD or before but were only written down as shown above.

Now some of these works are grouped together with stories and romances that have no mention of Arthur , who I will show archeological evidence as being a real person later, and seem to have come from the earliest days of the Celtic World, certainly in Wales and indeed could predate Christ in their oral origin of storytelling!

So I will be a little more on topic now, and to just explain the grouping of the Mabinogion into it's collective parts. The White Book and Red Book as shown were major parts but the eleven sections are as follows:

The four Branches of the Mabinogi

Pwyll prince of Dyfed (this is the part/who Gwyn Ur Upp swaps with from the underworld)

Branwen Daughter of LLyr

Manawydan Son of Llyr

Math Son of Mathonwy

Then there are four separate stories, just folklore not Arthur Dominated

The Dream of Macsen Wledig

Lludd and LLefelys

Culhwch And Olwen

The dream of Rhonabwy

Followed by the Three Romances, and this is heavily Arthur Dominated, infact it is sort of agreed within the framework of this that it is a souped up or romanticised account of the Arthurian Facts, though much much closer to any truth you will read from anyone after Geoffrey of Monmouth, himself included.

The Lady of the Fountain see fountain romanticised to lake and add sword from I think Llud!

Peredur son of Efrawg

Gerient son of Erbin

That is what has become known as the Mabinogion or Mabinogi.

Now all of these storie, folklore and renditions are massively laced with the Following, The Warrior (quest), The Maid/Princes virgin and lots and lots of Magic, magic and the otherworld abounds, with spiritual sub plots, and tests at all parts of the tale, much like modern welsh life in the Valleys lol.

The book opens as follows and is the first introduction to the underworld with the rogue pack of Dogs and the Prince Hunting with his:

Pwyll prince of Dwyfed(state/county) was lord over the seven Cantrefs(districts) of Dwfed, and once upon a time he was at Arberth, a Chief court of his, and it came to his head and heart to go hunting. The part of his domain that pleased him most to hunt was Glyn cuch. and he set out that night from Arberth, and came as far as Pen Lllwyn Diarwya, and there he was that night.

On the morrowin the young of the day he arose and came to Glyn Cuch to loose his dogs into the woods. And he sounded his horn and began to muster the hunt, and followed after the dogs and lost his companions; and whilst he was listening to the cry of the pack, he could hear the cry of another pack, but they had not the same cry, and were coming to meet his own pack.

These are the hounds of Gwynn ap Nudd and almost immediately as you can see in the opening book the hero is on a quest against the dark forces.

Star wars is really a rewrite of Hound wars in Wales millenia before

The classic romance. Though there are parts that may hold, or hide certain welsh and druid secrets, especially as I alluded to earlier in the post, many of the druidic magic and spiritual teachings are meant to be hidden in this work, much like nostrodamus hid his work, for fear of prosecution, the remaining druids at the time of Christ were meant to to have interwoven Real Knowledge and secrets, the mysteries of stonehenge and such within works, and folklore like these.

In South Wales you will find a town by the sea with many many old smugglers coves nearby, and a Church in the town called Llantwit Magor.

It is about 20 minutes drive from the Cardiff Airport and around 30 minutes from cardiff the capital itself.

Now this place/curch and the surrounding town is the place of the Oldest university in the western World, though there is none there now. It was a Monastical College and was pioneered by none others as St Patrick, Patron of Ireland, and St Illtyd & St David, Patron of Wales.

Not many people know that or that St Patrick is also a WELSHMAN who went and converted the Irish

Anyhow these guys visited and studied, prayed and spread the Christian faith in the area. If you go to that church you will see inside some stones, and celtic crosses from differant ages and parts of Wales.

One of them that has been confirmed as being of the correct time alluded to in the Mabagonion and the romances, together with other historical anecdotes and stories, has Arthurs Name on it, in fact it states that Arthur was there with hsi son, and was found in I believe West Wales.

It is obvious from the date and importance of this Character that he was very very powerful and is alluded to as a Prince in the text.

So unlike again popular misconception, there is Physical evidence of him, his stature and correct date, you can go and touch it and see, its not locked away, just at the back of said church close to the door.

I have spent quite a bit of time meditating there, and dowsing as such by this stone and I must say it has a very powerful energy, if you are open and believe in that sort of thing, and funny enough sometimes more powerful than Stonehenge and Glastonbury Tor itself, but much more earthy, grounded, strong, warrior like, more human.

When the true Britain's really need him he is said to return to lead, and protect us, and maybe just maybe now is the time with the world as it is, you guys in the US think Obama is something, he would shade into comparison lol... just kidding, but true lol

Will dig some of my books out on this subject over weekend and add some interesting aspects for all interested. I do know from a old friend I used to know who is a Druid practising as such, that to hear the hounds in the woods alone, or the wilds mountains, and not to see any is a forebearing or warning that misfortune is about to manifest in your life, and you are by your benelovent guides or, or the light being allowed access to that realm of Gwynn ap Nudd very briefly as a warning, to change your ways, last chance as the hounds are on their way and baying for your blood.

Only redemption and massive change can then stop the Justice/death card of the Tarot being played out in your life.

Nos da!

Kind Regards,

Elf

[edit on 23-1-2009 by MischeviousElf]

wow thank you so much for posting this! Wales has so much history to be so lost the the archeological backwaters! Can't wait to hear all that they find there ,bronze and iron age intact burials would be amazing!

As to portals to other dimensions ,since this is ATS I will say that having found one or two I can tell you it's just like the legends say you really have no idea you've crossed over until something that simply couldn't be in your dimension shows up ,then you kind of get skittish wondering if you're lost and how to get back

anywho ,exciting post!

reply to post by vonspurter


This is an amazing find, however the allegory of the "Land of the Dead" with the pscyhopomp who leads the dead through, is the same story as the Egyptian Book of the dead... and the Tibetan Book of the dead


And all the Books of the dead to be honest...

It's really one of the golden threads through what I call "common human religious notions".

It's great that they found the burial place of Celts... but I really hope people don't actually believe that this place came before the myth.

reply to post by MischeviousElf



thanks for the info, Having only just read the first book i can't help but think that much of the old tale was lost to catholic revisionism - reading the works of british christianity coming from the start of the 2nd millenia you see a massive desire to replace the old systems with a single god and absolute morality, stories become very clear cut good vs evil, christian right vs wrong.

If the celts did write (and we;re starting to find evidence they did on a wider scale than previously thought) then it was all lost to dogmatic fervor and replaced by the more politically correct at the time moral message, it was a lucky text indeed that survived the next thousand years without alteration.

then again certain storytelling devices have been used by all cultures through out all times, maybe it's just universal nature of human existance.

This is very interesting in the fact that the land of the dead is spoken of in many folk tales, legends, myths, etc...

I just should point out one thing, if you were to find the land of the dead full of all of it's spoken rich lands, unlimited food, etc... would you even want to share it.




Ill answer it for you, *Snip* NO!

I would share it but I'm pretty sure whoever finds it won't, it's how a weak mind works, the foundation of our genes is survival which is the mentality "I want the bigger share".

-Psycho

reply to post by MischeviousElf


That was a good post there, ME.

Quite impressive, really.

There is a theory I am entertaining, regarding those elevenses, but no one knows how they found the measure of the Earth and Moon to arrive at the mile.

Anyway, there is much more I can only allude to, as you well know. Wish we could do coffee...

There is no physical place where a doorway lies to another dimension. The doorway is in your head. It is you inentionally or unintentionally allowing yourself to idle your emotions or frequency to the tone of the location you are residing. Everywhere you go has a past, present and future.

reply to post by NatureBoy


Good point, infact as stated even before reversion there is a hint of the Norman in these texts and such similar one's.

However as you rightly say calvanism had a profound impact on all the welsh stories, and layouts, and made them a lot more structured....almost like the difference between Chaos Magic being the original stories structure, tht is a blending of accepted archetypes and layouts and transmuting as such flowing with the story, and then the traditional Lodge type of fixed set god's forces and set rituals (layouts) and practices (rythm/descriptive text of of story)

I would appreciate any sources you have for earlier written celtic work, esp of Welsh origin, thanks.

reply to post by Matyas

Thank You and coffee would be nice if you are ever in this part of the world, with Seaweed on Toast lol.

I have always been very interested in the 11 and moon earth correlation to, amongst other times it appears.

I do think however though that in this case The Mabinogion it was pure fluke, as said the two separate books, that made it up were just collated by Lady guest, who I have no knowledge that was in any "Lodge" or of any other interest except in literary Novels of the Welsh Kind. She just added those to the other popular and available Texts of the time... so could be fate though creating it like that... who knows.

Kind Regards,

Elf.

Originally posted by kidflash2008
reply to post by vonspurter

 

It is interesting that most myths have a "door" to the underworld/afterlife. Author Laurence Gardner speculates that some Egyptian Pharaohs made the journey into another dimension while still living. It is an interesting hypothesis that ancient people had a path to another dimension. Purely speculative, but interesting none the less.

I'm confused though.. It sais in the Op's post I think that this particular "gateway to annwn" is less of an actual physical gate and more of a sudden awareness of another dimensional reality.....(although the physical location where this awareness would take place could have something to do with a cave or gate at that physical location in our dimension).. It sounds alot like what thousands of people have experienced after NDE's.

It is obvious to me that if such a multi-dimensional reality does exist (and it probably does) it would explain alot of what we observe going on in our reality.. Things like the paranormal, EVP's, Instrumental transcommunication, orbs, psychics, premonitions, telekinesis, deja vu, scientific remote viewing, (just to name a few).. We are an intelligence with an electrical charge and our energy is very different from flesh and bone.. The two do not always obey the same natural laws... The difference is human will and the ability for us to make the conscious decision to manipulate our own energy, the energy of others, and the energy of the universe that surrounds us.

-ChriS

[edit on 23-1-2009 by BlasteR]

[edit on 23-1-2009 by BlasteR]

reply to post by vonspurter


In ancient Gaelic traditions, the bodies of the dead where buried in these tombs not as the actual place where they reside.. but it was considered that if the bodies where not entombed in such a way, their souls would be trapped on Earth.

So basically, it is my belief that while the area with the tombs was very important and sacred, it was not the actual "land of the dead".. I would think of it more as a launching point to the Land of the Dead, as the souls entombed would then be ferried away.

There are several areas in the Gaelic world where large amounts of tombs seem to be in concentrated numbers..

Anyways, Cairns, which many tombs where Cairns, where sometimes considered to be gate ways to the other world, and I doubt they thought it would bring you to an actual place you can get to by foot.

Just my thoughts.

reply to post by vonspurter



That fits with the theory that the bluestones at stonehenge originated from wales also:

www.bbc.co.uk...


also mentioned in a link you provided:

www.mabinogi.net...

his area of North-West Dyfed had strong links with the Gaelic world (Davies p.47), and also was also home the highest concentration of bilingual inscribed stones in Early Christian Wales. It is tempting to see in this distinctive local culture some continuity with the pre-Christian, indigenous past: the same area also housed the largest concentration of cromlechau or megalithic chambered tombs in Wales. (Davies p.8). The famous 'bluestones' of Stonehenge were also excavated from the Precelli Mountains were also excavated form this area, providing the tantalising hint that Dyfed's traditional had associations with the Indigenous Underworld may have a basis in prehistoric fact: going back to magico-religious and/or commercial ties with Stonehenge in Wessex, the cultural centre of the Late Megalithic world (see pp. ##-##).

and this one:
www.archaeology.co.uk...

But are there irish links aswell - the stones are thoyght possibly to have gone from wales to ireland and then to stonehenge?:
www.louistalboys.com...

ix years of excavation at Preseli have revealed settlements as old as four millennia BC, before Stonehenge. Burials also suggest visitors from far afield. The hills are peppered with holy wells, most of them spilling over pieces of the dolerite bluestone placed at their mouths, some carrying carved decoration. The stone, unique to the Preseli area, was clearly special.
To the old archaeology, special tended to mean sacred. But the constant search for “primitivist” reasons for prehistoric phenomena is questioned by Wainwright and Darvill. Why not offer workaday, rational answers? Holy wells throughout history were curative, usually associated with components such as chalk, sulphur or iron.
The plethora of wells at Preseli and the associated burial mounds appear to go back long before the bluestones arrived at Stonehenge, about 2300BC. This suggests that the wells and their bluestones were famed far and wide, a reputation repeated by the (albeit unreliable) Geoffrey of Monmouth in the middle ages.
Into the 19th century, visitors could buy hammers in Amesbury to chip bits off Stonehenge in honour of the old tradition of its healing power. This may explain why only the underground parts of many of the bluestones survive, and why chippings are found in graves across the country, including at Silbury. Bluestone, like a copper bracelet, was plainly long thought to be a health-giving token.

source: saesferd.wordpress.com...

Great Stuff and wonderful thread. S& F

It makes me wonder if the bluestones dotted about the country have significance also. here's a few i found in lincolnshire, not found much on explanation other than glacial??

In the year 1827 a very large blue stone occupied a conspicuous position at the entrance to Loath, and which was supposed had retained its station for at least three centuries. It is somewhat noticeable that Louth and Grimsby should have had large blue stones in similar positions. Where did the blue stones come from? and how came they to be placed in such positions? Are questions to be answered by Antiquarians. At the point of junction of Abbey Road and Brighowgate facing Bar- gate, a thatched cottage stood, which, with its whitewashed walls and rose-covered porch, was always a picturesque object.

source:beehive.thisisgrimsby.co.uk...

It is known that a stone once existed in the town of Grimsby and was known as ‘The Havelok Stone’. Although no longer in situ, Holles(10) remarked that a stone known as Havelok’s Stone once stood in the town to the east end of Briggowgate (Brigghowgate) and was alleged to be a twin of another missing stone known as ‘The Lincoln Stone’ which once stood in the City of Lincoln. Bob Lincoln, writing in 1913(11) described the existence of a large stone in the town, composed of imperishable materials, and this, like many of the local megaliths, were considered to be the result of Danish activity. At the time of Lincoln’s writing, the Havelock Stone stood as a landmark separating the parish of Grimsby from the adjoining hamlet of Wellow. It is clear that this stone ‘did the rounds’, until eventually being lost, or destroyed sometime during the twentieth-century. Its disappearance is coincidental with the populous’ gradual disenfranchisement of the land.

The Odin link with these stones is sustained when we discover that that nearby place name of Thoresby is derivative of ‘Thor’ the Teutonic thunder god of war. In domains where Odin was regarded as the supreme god, Thor was often perceived as being his son. As well as Thoresby a number of other place names make reference to this deity including the coastal promontory Donna Nook. Donna or Donar is considered another aspect of Thor. The place-name ending ‘thorpe’ is associated with the Danelaw of eastern and northern England and simply means ‘secondary settlement’. This inferior principle fits neatly with local tribes who venerated Odin/Grim as supreme god and Thor as his heir. It can therefore be no coincidence that the sticks used to whip the Boundel Stone were made of Hazel, a wood sacred to Thor and considered a protection against lightning.

The story of the transportation of the two ‘magic’ stones is a fabrication. We know this, for the deposits known as ‘bluestones’, of which the Grim and Boundel stones are referred, were glacial erratics bought over on ice sheets from Scandinavia. It is no coincidence that this is where Grim and Boundel are said to have fetched the stones. The myth probably portrays the machismo of the Scandinavian settlers during the Dark Ages. Having recognised the bluestones as being of the same stock as ones ‘back home’, they chose to concoct fanciful stories of their transportation to impress the locals and their peers of their sea-faring ability, strength and virility

source:

www.tc-lethbridge.com...

The Louth "Gelyan Bower" is mentioned in a record

p. 78

of 1544, "To nych mason for making at gelyan bower a new crose, iijs." In an old hostelry in Mercer Row, Louth, stood for some centuries a boulder of dolerite called the "Blue Stone," which is stated to have formerly occupied the centre of the maze. Trees planted at the maze served as a landmark to ships out at sea.

source:
www.sacred-texts.com...

Can find nothing on the history of this one:
flickr.com...

edit: no, after a little more digging, i have found something:

BLUESTON FIELD (West Ravendale) Cameron (PN L 4: 154) observes that “bluestone is copper sulphate”, but surely this name recorded in 1630 enshrines the common local term for a glacial erratic or sarsen, for instance that on the former boundary between Grimsby and Clee (PN L 5: 20, 51) and those alluded to in Bluestone Lane and Inn (Immingham; not in PN L) and the Bluestone Heath Road on The Wolds (not in PN Lso far). Note the following remark in White’s Lincolnshire (1856: 570): “In a field near the church [of North Thoresby], called Bound Croft, is a blue stone, over which the manor court was formerly held.”

source:209.85.229.132...:KJnzExDJLj4J:www.sussex.ac.uk/linguistics/documents/lxwp_21-07_azure_mouse.pdf+history+bluestone+inn+immin gham&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=uk

[edit on 24-1-2009 by MCoG1980]

Originally posted by Matyas
reply to post by MischeviousElf

 

There is a theory I am entertaining, regarding those elevenses, but no one knows how they found the measure of the Earth and Moon to arrive at the mile.

Hmm...What do you mean? There are like a thousand different kinds of "miles" aren't there. And for a very long time each country had its own definition of the word (.. meaning it was pretty much different for each country).. The irish mile was different from the scottish mile, etc.. And if you want to talk about our commonly accepted mile system in use today, the distance between the earth and the moon is not a whole number anyway.. Plus the distance between the earth and the moon is always growing because the moon's orbit is basically being "thrown" outward (although that isn't exactly why). What I'm saying is that even if the moon happened to be an exact distance at some point in history, it is going to be different today anyway.

-ChriS

reply to post by BlasteR


To briefly digress...

The ratio of the Moon to the Earth is 3:11, which squares the circle.

The diameter of the Moon is:

3x1x2x3x4x5x6 miles, or

3x8x9x10 miles

The diameter of the Earth is:

11x1x2x3x4x5x6 miles, or

8x9x10x11 miles

The combined radius of the heavenly circle is:

1x2x3x4x5x6x7 miles, or

7x8x9x10 miles

The area of the heavenly circle is:

2(1x2x3x4x5x6x7x8x9x10x11) sq. miles

This is the wisdom of the Druids. That is what I mean.

reply to post by MCoG1980


In addition to my last part of my last post:

Formerly standing at the corner of Mercer Row the
principal street in Louth this boulder became a nuisance as a
rendezvous for loafers and idlers, on which account it was
removed, at a considerable expense, to the premises above-
mentioned. These premises were in old time a large county
inn, of which the c Blue Stone ' formed the material sign, and
there is still in Louth a publichouse, known as the c Blue Stone
Inn,' which has a rough representation of the boulder for its
sign ; there is also a tradition to the effect that it was once in
use as a Druidical altar stone on Julian Bower, a locality not
far distant from its present position.

source:
www.archive.org...

The gate to "Annwn" is whitin ourselves I say

"The first peace, which is the most important, is that which comes within the souls of people when they realize their relationship, their oneness with the universe and all its powers, and when they realize that at the center of the universe dwells the Great Spirit, and that this center is really everywhere, it is within each of us."

Black Elk - Oglala Sioux

www.greatdreams.com...

reply to post by pai mei


Yes, it is, but it is realized both outwardly as well as inwardly. The Master Pattern (ye ratios and geometries) are the outward manifestations. Without the inward manifestation, one cannot arrive at the complete understanding of the outward.

So I say the door is there, it is a matter of being in a balanced state of openness to enter.

reply to post by vonspurter

What beautiful and inspiring landscapes. You are lucky to be living so near by.

Of course one needs to imagine it more thickly forested, and doubtless swathed in mist, to evoke the full Avalon effect.

The Arthurian cycle fascinated me as a teenager, much as The Lord of the Rings fascinated so many of my contemporaries. I was born under a tropical sun, but at sixteen I already knew that when Robert Plant sang about 'the apples of the valley' in The Battle of Evermore, he was invoking one of the names of Avalon.

Excellent a thread which is based in Wales! Im a proud Welshman myself (see avatar) and have always been fascinated by Welsh/Celtic mythology and Ive never come across this one before so I will read this thread with great interest My favourites have to be the stories of Merlin and the story of how Wales got its flag (There is still no official story as to how it came into being - they're all myths and/or plausible scenarios) Another story I like (although this is not mythology) is the one of Beddgelert

en.wikipedia.org... (Yes I know its wiki but the info is correct)

Wales is a country with a history of mysticism and legend and a lot of druid stone circles still exist in many places (theres one about 10mins from my house and a housing estate has been built around it - Id like to know if anyone has had any strange experiences in those houses) Also Carmarthen which Merlin has been rumoured to have lived at one point is about 30mins drive from where I live now!

Thanks - Cymru am Byth (Wales Forever)