Avalon – Gateway to Annwn – Celtic Underworld 'Land of the Dead' believed found.

In the "Four Branches" of the Mabinogi (c. 1060–1120), the medieval Welsh collection of mythological tales, Annwn is conceived of as a world adjacent to the natural world, between which there are no boundaries but an awareness of a new dimension.

Ruled by Arawn, or much later by Gwynn ap Nudd, it was essentially a world of delights and eternal youth where disease is absent and food is ever-abundant. Annwn was said to lie so far to the west that not even Manawydan ap Llyr had found it, for you could only reach Annwn by dying yourself. It was also said, though, that Annwn could be entered by those still living, if they could find the door.

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A NINETEENTH century map in a North Wales town hall could unravel one of Celtic history’s most enduring mysteries – the location of the legendary Land of the Dead.
The map at Llangollen town hall could potentially rewrite the history of one of the world’s greatest hidden landmarks, a Celtic history expert claims.
According to Welsh mythology the Land of the Dead – or Annwn: Celtic Underworld – was ruled over by Gwynn ap Nudd. He escorted the souls of the dead there, and led a pack of supernatural hounds.
For centuries this place has believed to be pure fable.
But, experts say there is a grain of truth in the story from which it developed, with the evidence now pointing to Ruabon and Halkyn Mountains.

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Being a proud Welshman, with a Celtic family tree spanning centuries I shall definitely be visiting here as it's only 20 minutes drive from where I live. I'll take some pictures if I find anything of interest and post them up on this thread.

Other references:
Avalon: Gateway to Annwn

The Adventures of the Gods of Hades

The Celtic Origins of the Holy Grail

Eagerly awaiting pictures!
What a monumental find - Thanks for sharing it with us.
How cool is that - it’s only 20 mutes from you!
Ok that’s it!
*Starting the clock now*... tic tic tic...
Will be waiting 30 minutes from now for some great pics!
Have a wonderful time...



Peace!



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[edit on Fri Jan 23 2009 by Jbird]

reply to post by vonspurter


You people must not have looked very hard for this legendary place if its only 20mins drive lol....can you give us an idea of what the terrain is like there? We look foward to your findings!

reply to post by Griffo515

You people must not have looked very hard for this legendary place

Well it is an Underworld!


Not my pictures (yet) but here are some to give you an idea of the landscape:



Another with Snowdonia Mountain Range in the foreground:













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[edit on Fri Jan 23 2009 by Jbird]

Beautiful photos. I completely agree with everyone. I am looking forward to more from this. FLAGGED!

Nice generic pictures of Wales there, but none showing the actual, supposed, location of Annwn. This is the area referred to in the news report:



Interestingly, the modern English name for the spot I took this photo (back in 2004) is 'World's End'.

reply to post by Essan


My research merely points to Ruabon and Halkyn mountains - which is a great expanse of land - how have you managed to narrow the area down to a few acres? What source do you have pointing to that exact location? The actual map was not found until 2007 yet your picture of the supposed area is from 2004?

Not saying your incorrect but would appreciate the sources you had which led you there.


[edit on 23/1/09 by vonspurter]

Wow, not sure what to make of this - i'm not convinced they're being sensible with this -although it would be cool to see what they're talking about.

Coming from a long line of welshmen myself (and living in SE england now) i've always been interested in folk tales and the like and this is right where i always go on holiday - I assumed that this world just an invisible step beyond ours was a way of explaining dream state and universal truth. That is the world in which thoughts have corporal being, my computer screen shows data that on one hand does exist but also doesn't really exist -the mind's eye looks out over this realm, consider two plus two equals four -in the real world you have two items and you put them with two more items you have four items, in the mental world the concept of '2+2=4' is as true as it is in the real world -i had thought this spirit realm was used to describe this metaphsical realm, if numbers are real then so must memory be and thus here all things and beings live in life eternal.

The 'door' to the spiritual realm we could all pass though being the same as Huxley's 'doors of perception' - hehe i wouldn't be shocked if this magical area happens to be a huge grove of psilocybin mushrooms It wouldn't be the first time celtic lit talks of them and the area is rich with them

beautiful pictures.

I so love Wales, only two hours drive across the border for me. I love to spend time camping and hiking there in the summer. I climbed/hiked Snowdon two years ago, was a great experience.

Never realised i was living so close to the underworld, but there you go.

Great find.

Originally posted by vonspurter
reply to post by Essan

 

My research merely points to Ruabon and Halkyn mountains - which is a great expanse of land - how have you managed to narrow the area down to a few acres? What source do you have pointing to that exact location? The actual map was not found until 2007 yet your picture of the supposed area is from 2004?

Not saying your incorrect but would appreciate the sources you had which led you there.

The picture was simply taken on Ruabon Mountain in 2004. I posted it to show what the area is like. That's all.

Although there is a cave near World's End ....... Entrance to the underworld maybe?

Gates, portals, dimensions, etc. Do you think you'd recognize one if you saw it? IF you have one or access to one, take an EM detector and magnetic compass, and use them relatively frequently. If they start going crazy during your search, listen closely for any high pitched noise or pulsing. If you hear it or you start to feel dizzy, lightheaded, a tightening in your chest, etc, it's probably NOT heart troubles and I'd get the hell out of there if I were you. You think gates aren't guarded? Good luck in your pursuit, and I am GREATLY looking forward to your next report! And those pictures are absolutely beautiful!

(sorry for my bad grammar, I'm still working on my first cup of coffee).

For those who might like to read an English translation of the Four Branches of Mabinogi , you can here.....

www.mabinogi.net...

Worlds End sounds eery. Can just imagine this being the place!

This has been playing on my mind today, since they found Eden I've been really interested in the historical root of legends - Much of the old tales seems to make sense, accepting that much of it was created as a form of fable and others areas are romantic musings huge chunks of sense still remain.

The way i see it once a really important thing happened and it became common knowledge - a mighty king had an empire which was really good then it all fell to bits for some reason, over the years people added morals and extras to the tale and it became legend. The legends carried with them a certain truth and so this got carried along and used in other tales, we see the old world reborn and retold in tales like 'the faerie queen' in which Spencer uses the old world myths to glorify the new queen's reign. Now that our understanding of the world is starting to show that the monotheistic vision of a single created existence don't hold water the same stories, abit another twisted version of them is often used to describe and illuminate the modern world view, compassion and social awareness are the key traits, nobleness and honor have been rewritten.

This does however come with the tragic side effect that our true history is obscured, people see what they want to see - i'm afraid to say that the Welsh are very keen to do this, i say this as a lover of Wales and a proud descendant of many good welshmen. -however the friction between this and my English heritage has taught me that just believing what you want to be true isn't always possible, or right. I only bring this up because certain sections of the article are a little.... dubious.

“Why would someone leave their home parish, travel 200 miles over hostile enemy territory to set up an abbey in a marsh? It doesn’t make sense.”

But archaeology and a late 19th century Ordinance Survey map on the wall of Llangollen town hall could help substantiate the North Wales claim to some legends held dear by Glastonbury

Why indeed? maybe because it was his calling from GOD? the same calling which called thousands of other church builders to go and spread the message? I live near St Peters, this was built by a guy who sailed here over deadly waters in a rubbish boat, built a chuch out of stone and converted many of the hostile locals to set up an order which still survives (sort of) to this very day! Traveling 200 miles and setting up a abbey in a marsh was what people did back then, i love visiting old churches and abbeys (despite being an athiest) and reading about them, often they have amazing stories of how they were founded.

Also an interesting note, in North Wales is one of the oldest stone age Axe works in the world - because of the hard rock (some of the oldest on the surface of the planet) they created some of the sharpest and best axes in western europe, these stone axe heads made from the stone only found in the north west corner of wales have been discovered all over western europe, in good numbers near every single major coast inlet of the channel - Sailsbury plain included. This proves that even long before the rise of the welsh kings and the building of the hill fort networks there was a trade route between the black mountains and Avalon.

I think that much of whats said about Glasto is nonsense too, it's a real shame because i think those two areas must have so much history and so many great tales of their own -to bicker over the nonsense tales of knights errant is just muddying the waters.

I hope that this work serves to dispel some of the myth thats blown up around the great and vibrant history of the celtic (i know that terms a misnomer but i'm gonna use it anyway) islands - i just hope that the Vatican rather than smash all the celtic works actually stole them and they have the secrets hidden underground, maybe then one day we'll get some good answers to the many questions.

i have a few questions.

what's the ancient geography of the area? how long has it been in its current state? was it at any time, under the ocean? is it part of an otherwise, under water mountain chain? when do geologists/archaeologists/anthropologists claim it was first populated by humans?


[edit on 23-1-2009 by undo]

Habitation history:

HOLOCENE PERIOD: 10000 years ago to the present As the climate warmed and vegetation cover increased, wave upon wave of people spread across Britain - often attracted by the discovery of mineral ores. This influx of people characterised the development of Wales from the Palaeolithic, or Old Stone Age, to the present day, and is reflected in the rich diversity of Wale's culture. Accounts of this age, passed on by the oral tradition and then recorded in written form, we call history. History therefore represents about 0.0002173% of geological time. Knowing when the first miners came to Wales is a difficult question to answer. We know that the ice had largely gone by 10,000 years ago and colonisation was already well underway. People, it seems, have always had a fascination with rocks and minerals and it seems scarcely possible that these early Welsh inhabitants would not have noticed the occasional unusual or colourful stone in their travels. But our modern scientific methods have demonstrated that, by just under 4000 years ago, there was quite an active mining industry in parts of Wales. These early miners were Bronze-Age people, who had migrated slowly N and W up through Europe, exploring for minerals as they went - and in particular for two metals - tin and copper. Tin only occurs in "academic" amounts in Wales, but with copper it is a different story. These people dug for copper at numerous localities from Great Orme in N Wales to Cwmystwyth in Mid-Wales: it seems that wherever there was significant copper mineralisation they had a go. Mining was done by shattering the rock with fire, then breaking and prising it out with heavy stone hammers and picks made from pieces of antler. The remains of such tools and the charcoal from the fires has provided our historians with a way of finding out just how old these early mines are - by Carbon 14 dating. Results are extremely consistent across Wales, implying an incoming wave of people who understood, to a sufficient degree, geology, prospecting, mining and metallurgy, nearly 2000 years before the coming of the Romans.

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[edit on Fri Jan 23 2009 by Jbird]

reply to post by NatureBoy

"This has been playing on my mind today, since they found Eden"


Do WHAT?

sorry, I've never heard of this happening and would love to see some source information on that.

reply to post by vonspurter


It was much warmer back then wasn't it? I wonder how different it looked in that time.

I was reading the text and came across this little fact..

He got up and put his two feet into the bag. Pwyll turned the bag so that Gwawl was head [over heels] in the bag and quickly closing the bag he tied up the strings in a knot and gave a blast on his horn. At that, his household fell on the court and seized everyone from the host that had come with Gwawl, and took each one prisoner.[51] Pwyll threw off his rags, his old boots and the shabby garment in which he had been clad.

As each one of his host came inside, each one of them would strike a blow to the bag, and ask: 'What is in the bag?', 'A badger,' the others would reply.[52]

They played a game like this: each one striking a blow with his foot and his staff. In such a way they made sport of the bag.

As each one came, he would ask 'What game are you playing there?'

'Badger-in-the-Bag.' would be the reply.

And that was the first time Badger in the Bag was ever played.

What pray tell is badger in the bag? a precursor to football maybe?

As an avid reader of old tales what strikes me very quickly about this work is the catholic undertones to the narrative - now he could be retelling old tales with a modern lilt,the english catholic church could have stolen the celts stories (as with the holidays) or this could be a fanciful work eager to replace the old world religions with the one true god (as he sees it) - i don't trust it as a historical retelling of events or emotions in the old world.

In answer to the questions posted,

The history of north wales is very interesting, the black mountains of north wales are some of the oldest rocks in the world, the entire area is rugged hills and valleys carved out during the ice age -since then it's been magical forest consisting depending on the climate cycle either of deciduous treas like the mighty oak, elm and ash or evergreen pines like those which grow now. It's a land which has been either your classic magic forrest or your classic spooky forest for millions of years.

complex settlements date back right to early stone age man, due to the availability of alluvial tin and ready chunks of copper ore it has been suggested that a very advanced society had an early bronze age and flourished before the rivers ran dry of tin -the industrial center of Britain then moved to cornwall. A strong sort-of celtic empire then slowly developed over the british isles. Hill forts still dot the landscape marking out long dead kings lands and empires long since faded, by the iron age wales was a complex land of kings and castles -it stayed this way until the romans chased the 'celts' out and then the catholic inqusitors smashed all the old monuments and either stole or smashed any link with the old 'heresy.' The english never let wales develop because the kings liked having a good hunting ground and for other socioeconomic reasons -but thats the short story of how wales became what it is.


edit to add:
in WoW, RPG, Fantasy terms - The old Welsh (pre-christian) are the Elves and Dwarfs.

[edit on 23-1-2009 by NatureBoy]


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[edit on Fri Jan 23 2009 by Jbird]

reply to post by coven


hehe oh yeah sorry to just drop that bomb shell, i speak of gobekli tepe - a lot of evidence to suggest it 's the place they were thinking of when they told stories of eden.

www.smithsonianmag.com...

theres a thread somewhere on ats about it thats well worth reading.

reply to post by vonspurter


It is interesting that most myths have a "door" to the underworld/afterlife. Author Laurence Gardner speculates that some Egyptian Pharaohs made the journey into another dimension while still living. It is an interesting hypothesis that ancient people had a path to another dimension. Purely speculative, but interesting none the less.