Has Mankind been Duped into Rejecting The only Redeemer?

reply to post by Godfinder


Thank you for your comment. I agree that we participate through our act of will in the transformation and renewing of our minds, and in a sense one might say we save ourselves, but I believe that Christ made the way for us when he overcame death, hell, the grave, the curse of sin, set the captives free, and ascended into heaven. Without God's Mercy Jesus would not have been the Way, Truth and the Life and we would not have any hope for salvation.

reply to post by John Matrix


Thank you too my friend.. Dont get me wrong, I am not removing God, And Christ as our savior, I am Just trying to share another version of what might be our real purpose, The possibility of God being man and man being god. Let me quote a bible passage, "Jesus answered a group of Jews and said, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'?" (John 10:34)." What can this possibly mean? I think its self explanatory already. SO if we look at it this way, If Christ shows us the way in w/c we can save us from ourselves, Then in essence he is still our saviour. Peace

[edit on 24-1-2009 by Godfinder]

reply to post by Godfinder

We watch national geographic channel and we think that we understand animal behavior but unfortunately, it’s a pity that animals seem to know their maker and we don’t. They simply function and do things that they always do based on instinct.

They act based upon instincts created through millions of generations in a specific enviroment. Just beacuse your veiw of time is limited do not assume animals have ALWAYS acted the SAME way... sigh..

I don’t even know why birds migrate from one place to another, but they still continue to do so regardless of my opinion of them. I think one of the things that separate us from them is that they do not judge themselves. If you think about it, animals are like preprogrammed computer game characters that do the same thing over and over again. The programmer encoded each of them specific commands in order for them to function properly. When the characters function with total submission on how they are intended to be, this will make the program achieve the purpose of its maker. But do you seriously think that we are just video game characters who jumps with a button press for the sole amusement of those we call gods? If that’s true then I’ll say that we are still in the Beta testing stage

Then look it up... to remain ignorant of a natural explainable action is pitifull. How can you use your willfull ignorance as proof of a divine GOD?
Maybe you should also include in your post some of the more logical conclusions.... like natural selection ... and that there is no magical god flying around on a cloud granting wishes?

I know that I am more than a mere preprogrammed video game character because I am writing this right now because I want to. Oh wait, maybe Zeus is just controlling me right now and if that’s the case, then it’s alright if I kill, rape or smash cars around without penalty and guilt. After all it’s just a game, having a sound conscience is irrelevant.

You are very confused. This flawed logic comes from a fear of punishment and not a love of GOOD. Knowing that you are a product of casuality gives you an opertunity to understand yourself and those around you... and in turn love them...
not rape, kill, and murder.... although terrible mistakes can teach beautiful lessons.

Like animals, we engage daily on different activities such as eating, having sex and killing each other. We humans on the other hand act on our own free will. Animals can do tricks because they are conditioned to do so while training them on a reward and penalty basis.

is putting on clothes a product of free will or the tempature that we lived in? Is eating free will or do we do it because we are hungry? You are conditioned just like that trained animal..... everything you do is based of a reward penalty basis.

Anyway, my point is we humans differ with animals in a big way. It’s in their nature to be animals and it is in our nature to be humans. It is our nature to crave for the truth. We crave for our creator. We try to fill the bottomless hole in our hearts with our wood carved gods and worldly possessions while the animals do what they are meant to do.

We try to explain things in the most understandable probable fasion for that period in time... this is how this whole idea of a magical god got started. the sheer magnitude of the delusion is now used as its only evidence.


In closing... you seem to only be focusing on the veiw of life that comforts you.... You only feel the need to do good things or explore as long as you get some magical heaven and a god that loves you. DENY IGNORANCE!

Just the words "the only redeemer" frightens me.
Not in an I'm scared way - but in a -
I cannot fathom an "only redeemer"... way.
My BS meter goes off.
But each to their own.
I can only speak for myself.
And as a part of mankind I can safely say -
I have not been duped.
Well - at least not in this way.
Peace to all of the redeemers.

Originally posted by Godfinder
reply to post by John Matrix

 

Thank you too my friend.. Dont get me wrong, I am not removing God, And Christ as our savior, I am Just trying to share another version of what might be our real purpose, The possibility of God being man and man being god. Let me quote a bible passage, "Jesus answered a group of Jews and said, "Is it not written in your law, 'I said, you are gods'?" (John 10:34)." What can this possibly mean? I think its self explanatory already. SO if we look at it this way, If Christ shows us the way in w/c we can save us from ourselves, Then in essence he is still our saviour. Peace

[edit on 24-1-2009 by Godfinder]

I would like you to consider the commentary on John 10:34 at this site and do a search for further commentaries, then weigh it all out and see what makes sense to you.

home.earthlink.net...

[edit on 24/1/09 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
Where in the New Testament do you find Christ himself advocating your positions? I request that you provide us with the quotes...

Jesus said: "I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no man comes to the father but by me"

He also said: "Unless a man is born again of water and of spirit, he shall not enter the Kingdom of Heaven"

He also said: "In your Patience possess ye your souls".

Jesus is described throughout scripture as being meek, humble, patient, kind, loving, forgiving, merciful, faithful etc. and he obviously despised evil, ignorance, hypocrites, gossips, slanderers, false accusers, idol worshipers etc.

How's that so far?

Let me know more specifically what position of mine you want me to support with scriptures.


[edit on 24/1/09 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by spinkyboo
Just the words "the only redeemer" frightens me.
Not in an I'm scared way - but in a -
I cannot fathom an "only redeemer"... way.
My BS meter goes off.
But each to their own.
I can only speak for myself.
And as a part of mankind I can safely say -
I have not been duped.
Well - at least not in this way.
Peace to all of the redeemers.

You have 60 million years of evolution ahead of you, so I would not worry about it.....assuming that is you in the avatar.

reply to post by spinkyboo

I think your avatar is a great explanation of how ignorant some people can be to believe that animals are inferior or just "programmed" as has been stated here. Just because animals don't have the ability to speak in a way we can understand them does not mean they don't function in the same way as humans do. The only difference is that humans are terribly self centered.

Originally posted by Wertdagf
reply to post by Godfinder

 

They act based upon instincts created through millions of generations in a specific enviroment.

I am actually aware of that. Actually if you add this to my sentence, you will just further elaborate on how do animals learn to adapt with their environment.bottomline, they still use instinct. You seem to miss my point

Then look it up... to remain ignorant of a natural explainable action is pitifull. How can you use your willfull ignorance as proof of a divine GOD?
Maybe you should also include in your post some of the more logical conclusions.... like natural selection ... and that there is no magical god flying around on a cloud granting wishes?

I will look it up, forgive me if i cant know everything because i have limitations, I am ashamed because i dont know why birds migrate im truly pitiful. But again, you seem to miss my point. My lack of knowledge about one natural explainable action cannot automatically negate everything that i say even if it is verifiable or not. And speaking of natural selection, I think the last time that I went to the zoo, I saw some monkeys playing around their cage. I wonder when will they become humans.

You are very confused. This flawed logic comes from a fear of punishment and not a love of GOOD. Knowing that you are a product of casuality gives you an opertunity to understand yourself and those around you... and in turn love them...
not rape, kill, and murder.... although terrible mistakes can teach beautiful lessons.

I am just going to assume that you didnt get past the sarcasm

is putting on clothes a product of free will or the tempature that we lived in? Is eating free will or do we do it because we are hungry? You are conditioned just like that trained animal..... everything you do is based of a reward penalty basis.

I went out earlier to pick up something from my friends house, my jacket is on the 3rd floor but since my friends house is only a couple of steps away from my house, i got lazy, so i CHOSE to go out without my jacket on even if i know that it is 15 degrees cold outside. Do you know the story of Gandhi on how he CHOSE to starve himself? Hunger strike to stop a civil war, truly that was epic. And one last thing I helped a lady pick up something that she dropped yesterday at the grocery store, i assure you that i didnt expect anything in return at all. Is free will really complicated?

We try to explain things in the most understandable probable fasion for that period in time... this is how this whole idea of a magical god got started. the sheer magnitude of the delusion is now used as its only evidence.

Well again if you get past the sarcasm youll see that I agree on you on this one.

In closing... you seem to only be focusing on the veiw of life that comforts you.... You only feel the need to do good things or explore as long as you get some magical heaven and a god that loves you. DENY IGNORANCE!

Of course I have the need to do good things, it makes me sleep more soundly. I have the need to explore not because I want to be in some magical paradise where i can run naked with the lions who sleep with the lambs but simply because it is in our nature to seek. when was the last time that you rolled your eyes back in your head to see your own mind? the human brain alone is far more amazing compared to any complex technology known to man.it makes us far more superior than animals. Our design alone suggest that we didnt evolve out from some organic soup . Lastly are you with me to learn and try to deny ignorance or are you just trying to prove that you are more KNOWLEDEGABLE than me because if it is the latter then your showing signs of immaturity. Be more polite next time

reply to post by Godfinder

I went out earlier to pick up something from my friends house, my jacket is on the 3rd floor but since my friends house is only a couple of steps away from my house, i got lazy, so i CHOSE to go out without my jacket on even if i know that it is 15 degrees cold outside. Do you know the story of Gandhi on how he CHOSE to starve himself? Hunger strike to stop a civil war, truly that was epic. And one last thing I helped a lady pick up something that she dropped yesterday at the grocery store, i assure you that i didnt expect anything in return at all. Is free will really complicated?

That choice was based on stimulus.. so did you really choose? or did the stimulus define your reaction based on previous explerainces? Ghandhi neither burst into a light butterfly OR stopped the killing...
You helped the lady because your experiances deemed it a logical act.
You are the product of determinism.... you make no choices... it only appears that you have choice when your veiw of reality is limited.

Originally posted by cancerian42
reply to post by spinkyboo

 

I think your avatar is a great explanation of how ignorant some people can be to believe that animals are inferior or just "programmed" as has been stated here. Just because animals don't have the ability to speak in a way we can understand them does not mean they don't function in the same way as humans do. The only difference is that humans are terribly self centered.

Yes - how true. How wise the animals.
They are the true quiet giants of the world.
Speaking and teaching volumes without a word.

reply to post by John Matrix


Thanks for the concern, those are very compelling arguments. I would like to quote another passage from the bible, “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it (reminds me of the Law of Attraction). (John 14:12-14)”. In a literal sense, Jesus suggests here that anyone who is grounded on faith who is in accordance with God’s will can have the capacity to perform feats that are far more greater compared to the deeds that he have done. If Christ is God, and we have the faculty to do things that he can do, then we have an innate capacity to reach the state of god. Im not talking about a magic God who flies around while sitting on a cloud granting wishes or anything like that according to one of the members who replied on my previous post on this thread but rather by "god", i meant something like a human with a more godlike image who is more evolved,more mature, more intelligent and he doesnt diss other members at ats because he's all knowing. Im talking about that kind of god. the kind human with godlike features that thinks about the welfare of others and not just of his own egotistical bloated selfimage. All of the world’s religions cannot be correct with regards to universal truth. Its either one of them must be correct and one of them must be wrong or both of them are wrong. But It’s just that there are things outside the confines of catholic doctrine that pushes me more to the idea of "man’s possibility to reach the state of god" such as Gautama Buddha's enlightenment. If you have the time, maybe you can check out alternative reading materials that suggest the possibility of man rising up higher than his current self and who God really is. There are far too many to mention, but a find the following reading materials to be interesting and they are downloadable. Read: thiaoouba prophecy from (www.thiaoouba.com...), intelligent design from (www.rael.org...) and Ronald Weinland's books from (www.the-end.com...). I’m not necessarily a Devotee of the said materials for they have conflicting ideas and they also claim things that lack tangible evidence that we can dismiss as mere human imagination but at the same time we also cannot prove it to be absolutely wrong. I just hope that it can help us dissect and segregate the truth from the lies by cross referencing what we already know with the unknown and less popular while keeping an open mind. Some people take them as pure science fiction crap but more importantly I’m more interested on what they have to offer on giving a solution for our problems such as religion and materialism rather than if they are 100% accurate or not. Lastly, when we pray out loud, and as we listen carefully, we will notice that we start hearing us talking to ourselves. Peace out

[edit on 25-1-2009 by Godfinder]

reply to post by Godfinder


You are confused. It is your ego that implies that i want any recognition...
You really should read the whole thread... you might find where i explain my veiws and wipe away the ignorance of religious faith.

I pitty your ignorance.. for you assume that somone telling somone they believe lies is rude... that is truley a cage you have built for yourself.

reply to post by Godfinder


We were originally created a little lower than angels. Therefore, I do not believe we are on any path to becoming Gods.

We can achieve God like character by partaking in the Divine Nature and living by the Spirit. We can be one with God in and by the Spirit.

We are transformed by the renewing of our hearts and minds so that we are prepared for life in His Kingdom and whatever God has in store for us on earth.

Through the Spiritual rebirth we have the mind of Christ, but we experience that only to the degree that we Live in the Spirit.

As the Soul is transformed and cleansed by the Spirit, we have moments of enlightenment and illumination.

On another good issue you raised I must note that Jesus used ridicule and made fun of people to show them how ignorant their thinking was. He even called them names that in that time period was very insulting, such as: brood of vipers, wolves in sheep's clothing, blind guides, hypocrites, etc. So there are aspects of God and His Love that cause us to think and think some more.

Research is always helpful. Like the rich man passing through the eye of a needle for example.....did you know that the "eye of a needle" was a common tern used to describe a small opening in the wall of Jerusalem?
How many people know that? So, Jesus never said a rich man could not enter. He was saying that you need to give up your attachment to your worldly treasures and desire the Kingdom of Heaven more than anything else, and by doing that God will add these things to you. In this mindset you see worldly things as not being yours, but belonging to God.....they are simply on loan to you from God...so you take care of them as they are His gifts...and He can also take them away.

The scripture regarding "greater things" has also been researched on other threads and the explanation makes this all clear.

cicministry.org...

When humans (Adam and Eve) fell, they brought nature and the animals down to a fallen state with them. The Fall was the result of disobedience to God and He could have left us all in our fallen state. However, He gave us a way out through Christ for those who repent their own disobedience to Him.

For those who don't believe that God or Satan exists, Satan certainly believes in you...

Originally posted by jped62
When humans (Adam and Eve) fell, they brought nature and the animals down to a fallen state with them. The Fall was the result of disobedience to God and He could have left us all in our fallen state. However, He gave us a way out through Christ for those who repent their own disobedience to Him.

For those who don't believe that God or Satan exists, Satan certainly believes in you...

A profound Truth simply put. Man did not reveal this to you. starred and added you as a friend.

Peace.

reply to post by John Matrix

Hello John:

Wow! I have been following your thread with great interest. You have certainly been tossed around a bit.

I just want to add my 2 cents worth here. I agree with all your posts and just want to add, "Hang in there."

"Say ye of Him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of My Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not Me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father IS in me, and I in Him. (John 10:36-38)

I bleive that makes it pretty straight forward to understand what Christ was saying here about Himself. It is through Christ that we have peace with God.


Peace to you,
Grandma

Originally posted by John Matrix
reply to post by cancerian42

 

What I mean is that animals do what they seem to be programmed to do and never anything more. I've played some computer games and I started to see that, if you take any animal, they always act the same way, a lot like the Artificial Intelligence programing in some computer games.

OK, have a good laugh, I don't mind. If I can make you crack a smile, then I will take it as a good thing.

If it's a predator, they hunt, kill, eat, sleep, drink, that same way all the time. If a Cow, it does what cows always have done. Pick any animal, they do as they always have.

Surely the same can't be said for mankind who is obviously always looking for some higher state of being, and bettering for himself. Sure, some things in mankind's nature never change...such as his deceitfulness, even deceiving himself quite often etc.

What if we created ourselves and knew that the ultimate test to spiritual progression was to become lesser of the greater being.

Originally posted by Psychonaughty

What if we created ourselves and knew that the ultimate test to spiritual progression was to become lesser of the greater being.

I believe the material world and our material physical bodies are the result of the fall, and the fall is the result of our disobedience to one simple rule. One could say we created ourselves since we have no one to blame for our disobedience. But God has a plan to restore us, and all of nature.


[edit on 25/1/09 by John Matrix]

Originally posted by Grandma
reply to post by John Matrix

 

Hello John:

Wow! I have been following your thread with great interest. You have certainly been tossed around a bit.

I just want to add my 2 cents worth here. I agree with all your posts and just want to add, "Hang in there."

"Say ye of Him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? If I do not the works of My Father, believe me not. But if I do, though ye believe not Me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father IS in me, and I in Him. (John 10:36-38)

I bleive that makes it pretty straight forward to understand what Christ was saying here about Himself. It is through Christ that we have peace with God.
Peace to you,
Grandma

"I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me", and , " all things work to the Good of those that Love God".

Without Him I am nothing.