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Has Mankind been Duped into Rejecting The only Redeemer?

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posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 02:31 AM
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reply to post by John Matrix
 

1. Genesis 1:3
And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light.
Genesis 1:2-4 (in Context) Genesis 1 (Whole Chapter)
2. Genesis 1:4
God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness.
Genesis 1:3-5 (in Context) Genesis 1 (Whole Chapter)
3. Genesis 1:5
God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.
Genesis 1:4-6 (in Context) Genesis 1 (Whole Chapter)
4. Genesis 1:14
And God said, "Let there be lights in the expanse of the sky to separate the day from the night, and let them serve as signs to mark seasons and days and years,
Genesis 1:13-15 (in Context) Genesis 1 (Whole Chapter)
5. Genesis 1:15
and let them be lights in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth." And it was so.
Genesis 1:14-16 (in Context) Genesis 1 (Whole Chapter)
6. Genesis 1:16
God made two great lights—the greater light to govern the day and the lesser light to govern the night. He also made the stars.
Genesis 1:15-17 (in Context) Genesis 1 (Whole Chapter)
7. Genesis 1:17
God set them in the expanse of the sky to give light on the earth,
Genesis 1:16-18 (in Context) Genesis 1 (Whole Chapter)
8. Genesis 1:18
to govern the day and the night, and to separate light from darkness. And God saw that it was good.
Genesis 1:17-19 (in Context) Genesis 1 (Whole Chapter)
9. Exodus 9:23
When Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, the LORD sent thunder and hail, and lightning flashed down to the ground. So the LORD rained hail on the land of Egypt;
Exodus 9:22-24 (in Context) Exodus 9 (Whole Chapter)
10. Exodus 9:24
hail fell and lightning flashed back and forth. It was the worst storm in all the land of Egypt since it had become a nation.
Exodus 9:23-25 (in Context) Exodus 9 (Whole Chapter)

More results from New International Version





posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 02:41 AM
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Originally posted by John Matrix
Are we in a fallen state as the Bible says? If not, then why do we seek a higher state of consciousness, awakening, enlightenment, oneness with God, etc.?

The animals do what they have always done and nothing more.

Mankind is different, always striving to attain some higher state than His present one.

Has mankind been duped into believing He can attain a higher state of being without Christ as His redeemer?

Why? Why? Why?


HUH? This implies that anything is a deviation from the truth of christ. Are you serious? Why is Christ the default position for you?

P.S. Animals are not doing as they have always done. they were once single celled. They once could only swim. There was a time when they could not fly...etc. The times, they are a changin'.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 04:49 AM
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Who says its higher??
What you are refering to as higher may well be to the side or beneath more often than higher.

Becareful of what you are defining as higher, as opposed to just different.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 07:04 AM
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Originally posted by cancerian42
reply to post by John Matrix
 

I don't understand how someone can say their "old" spirit has died. The way I see it our spirits only grow and change forms, the "old" is still here, it is not dead, but it is not the exact same as it once was. This is just like say a mother dies and her child is wondering where its mom is, but it's mom is gone, she is not there any longer. But say the mother changed something about her, the child understands that it is still the same mother and doesn't say that it is a new mother. When you say rebirth of the spirit, this would mean every time we had an epiphany of some sort, our spirit would have to die and be reborn new, a completely different spirit. I do not understand how that can be.


The old self is not a Spirit.
The old self is the heart, mind and soul without a rebirth of the spirit of God.
The old self lives for the spirit of this world.
The reborn Spirit lives for God.
The old self and the Spirit are in opposition to each other.
We have the power of our wills to live according to the spirit of this world, or to live according to the Spirit in us which is from God.
We will wrestle with the old nature until we die or until the rapture, but I can tell you that as you live according to the spirit the old nature loses it's power over us, just as cigarettes lose power over the mind the longer one refuses to cave into the habit.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 07:22 AM
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Originally posted by Luciferdescending

HUH? This implies that anything is a deviation from the truth of christ. Are you serious? Why is Christ the default position for you?


If one looks to Christ as the incarnation of the Divine Nature of God rather than an image constructed in one's mind, then things become clearer.
I have another thread that explains my position here:

www.abovetopsecret.com...





P.S. Animals are not doing as they have always done. they were once single celled. They once could only swim. There was a time when they could not fly...etc. The times, they are a changin'.


I do not believe in the "from goo to you, by way of the zoo" theory of evolution. An infinite number of years of nature left to it's own workings can not produce life from non life matter.

No one observed creation or evolution, so neither can be proved or disproved. I weigh the evidence from both sides and make an informed decision. That is all any intelligent creature can do. Most people that believe in the theory of evolution do not believe in God, therefore their own prejudice against God is the fuel for their belief in the foolishness and ignorance of such a theory.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 07:30 AM
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Originally posted by John Matrix
I do not believe in the "from goo to you, by way of the zoo" theory of evolution. An infinite number of years of nature left to it's own workings can not produce life from non life matter.


Well, thanks for clearing that up. I do not believe in the "man wrote a book about an imaginary friend, his son, and their pet ghost. They are all real and true because man wrote that book and many men have retranslated and changed it to fit what they like, so Jesus must be the answer to everything because thinking hurts and reading and being told what to do is easier" theory of anything so thanks for clearing that up.


No one observed creation or evolution, so neither can be proved or disproved. I weigh the evidence from both sides and make an informed decision. That is all any intelligent creature can do. Most people that believe in the theory of evolution do not believe in God, therefore their own prejudice against God is the fuel for their belief in the foolishness and ignorance of such a theory.


Huh? You do realize how many people think believing in imaginary friends is foolishness and ignorance right? It is not nice to toss around such words because it is not what you believe. I am fairly certain that if you really read that book, you will see that you imaginary score keeping friend has an issue with pride. You should keep that in check, lest you end up spending eternity next to me.

[edit on 24-1-2009 by Luciferdescending]



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 07:59 AM
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Originally posted by Luciferdescending
Well, thanks for clearing that up. I do not believe in the "man wrote a book about an imaginary friend, his son, and their pet ghost. They are all real and true because man wrote that book and many men have retranslated and changed it to fit what they like, so Jesus must be the answer to everything because thinking hurts and reading and being told what to do is easier" theory of anything so thanks for clearing that up.

Huh? You do realize how many people think believing in imaginary friends is foolishness and ignorance right? It is not nice to toss around such words because it is not what you believe. I am fairly certain that if you really read that book, you will see that you imaginary score keeping friend has an issue with pride. You should keep that in check, lest you end up spending eternity next to me.


One does not need to read the bible to learn about Jesus. There are plenty of historical accounts and evidences. Believing in the theory of evolution, without proof, while denying the historical evidence of Jesus in the next breath, is sucking and blowing at the same time. It's absurd!!

I take it you have a problem with one putting their faith and trust in the Divine characteristics of Humility, Meekenss, and Patience and Love for God and fellow man?

Yes!...serving God has to be in the equation, otherwise putting on Humility, Meekness and Patience becomes a counterfiet and self serving.

You may find me beside you in eternity! Then what?


[edit on 24/1/09 by John Matrix]



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by John Matrix
One does not need to read the bible to learn about Jesus. There are plenty of historical accounts and evidences. Believing in the theory of evolution, without proof, while denying the historical evidence of Jesus in the next breath, is sucking and blowing at the same time. It's absurd!!


No, there is not. This is a cute claim and the internet has really helped to almost pass this one off as convincing but there are not a great many historical accounts of the son of God. What you are referring to is references to places Jesus says he went, people he says he knew, and the name Jesus. There are not a great many sources that explain the son of God came to earth and made fish and bread multiply, raised the dead, etc. If you have all these historical accounts of the son of God, please do share. I would be interested in reading every little bit.


I take it you have a problem with one putting their faith and trust in the Divine characteristics of Humility, Meekenss, and Patience and Love for God and fellow man?


From what? What are you basing that assumption on? The horrible things I have done? The terrible things I say? Why do you jesus fans seem so quick to judge others based on so little? Please tell me why you would make such assumptions.


Yes!...serving God has to be in the equation, otherwise putting on Humility, Meekness and Patience becomes a counterfiet and self serving.


Typical Christian humility and meekness right there - if you aint meek like we say you should get to meek, you aint meek enough for us. Why can I not be meek, patient, and have humility without your god? Why do people like you not see the hypocrisy in telling me that you are better than me because you know the only true path to humility????????????????


You may find me beside you in eternity! Then what?



That would be just fine. That would mean two things -
1 - your god was a complete waste of your time
2 - you followed the same path as me after all so I guess we have some things to discuss.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 08:39 AM
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reply to post by Luciferdescending
 


There are historiucal accounts of Jesus apart from the bible. They have been discussed many times on ATS. Do some research on the historicity of Jesus.

I have assumed nothing. You made your position clear. Your Avatar and words boldly portray your message.

You said and asked: "HUH? This implies that anything is a deviation from the truth of christ. Are you serious? Why is Christ the default position for you?"

Only someone who is anti-Christ would would make the statement you made and list the two questions as you did.

You asked: "Why can I not be meek, patient, and have humility without your god?"

Because you would be doing it for a false God.

You must want me to be with you, otherwise you would not attack the path I choose. Don't frett, you will have plenty of company.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 08:51 AM
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Originally posted by John Matrix
reply to post by Luciferdescending
 


There are historiucal accounts of Jesus apart from the bible. They have been discussed many times on ATS. Do some research on the historicity of Jesus.


I have, that is why I asked you to provide the things you claim exist but somehow, I knew you would not.


I have assumed nothing. You made your position clear. Your Avatar and words boldly portray your message.


Please explain what my avatar and words say about being meek, humble, etc. I do not see it but if you can, you must enlighten me. Of course, this is the second thing I am asking for a second time isn't it?


You said and asked: "HUH? This implies that anything is a deviation from the truth of christ. Are you serious? Why is Christ the default position for you?"

Only someone who is anti-Christ would would make the statement you made and list the two questions as you did.[/quoute]

Uh huh. I am pretty anti-sant claus and anti easter bunny too. I give gifts and eat chocolate, I just do not believe in imaginary characters. I can do good deeds with or without your Jesus. Why can't you?


You asked: "Why can I not be meek, patient, and have humility without your god?"

Because you would be doing it for a false God.


That is the problem. You think we need a god to do these things. That is a pretty messed up thing to say for someone so meek and humble isn't it? But then again, I already pointed that out too and you are good at avoiding the things I said that you can not answer.


You must want me to be with you, otherwise you would not attack the path I choose. Don't frett, you will have plenty of company.


I never once attacked your path. I am attacking your assumption that your god is the only way anyone can be a good person. I am attacking your assumption that anyone who does not accept Jesus as a savior can not be a good person. Did you miss the thing about judging others?



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:00 AM
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reply to post by Luciferdescending
 


I do not have to justify what I believe to anyone. I don't have to prove anything either. You cannot disprove Jesus is the only Son of God, savior, redeemer, emanuel. You made your point. Next!!

Actually, I like your avatar. You could use a bit more muscle size and definition, but with some modifications in your diet and training you could pump it up in a year or two.

Have a nice day Lucy.



[edit on 24/1/09 by John Matrix]



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:04 AM
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Originally posted by John Matrix
reply to post by Luciferdescending
 


Actually, I like your avatar. You could use a bit more muscle size and definition, but with some modifications in your diet and training you could pump it up in a year or two.

Have a nice day Lucy.



So you respond to me asking you explain why you can judge and assume by mocking the physical definition of a very well built female picture?

I knew you did not have anything to back up all that nonsense and I should have known you were just another ATS faux-christian. I guess if you have no answers for the crazy things you espouse...then what can we do.

oh....I get it. You are demonstrating how meek you are by mocking my strength and manliness? Changing my name to a girls name is supposed to insult me? Changing your avatar to a big ugly man is supposed to show me your meekness? Saying I need to put on muscle, that is you being meek? Thanks again for being the usual ATS christian (read:ignorant hypocrite)

[edit on 24-1-2009 by Luciferdescending]



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:14 AM
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Originally posted by Luciferdescending
So you respond to me asking you explain why you can judge and assume by mocking the physical definition of a very well built female picture?


Nope!



I knew you did not have anything to back up all that nonsense and I should have known you were just another ATS faux-christian. I guess if you have no answers for the crazy things you espouse...then what can we do.


You miss the point. It has nothing to do with whether I can prove the OP. It cannot be proven nor can it be disproved. But intelligent observation of people and how they interact and how they are prone to destruction, murder, cereal killings, suicide, rape, stealing, cheating, lying, falsehood, delusions, ignorance, willful ignorance, self exaltation's, destroying the environment, warmongering, etc. etc. etc. These all tell me that we are in a fallen state, need a redeemer, and have rejected the redeemer.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by John Matrix

You miss the point. It has nothing to do with whether I can prove the OP. It cannot be proven nor can it be disproved.



Stop, shhhhhhhhhh. Read. I never asked you to prove the OP. I asked you to back up the things you were saying about me. I guess we can cross reading comprehension off the list as well.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by John Matrix
reply to post by cancerian42
 


What I mean is that animals do what they seem to be programmed to do and never anything more. I've played some computer games and I started to see that, if you take any animal, they always act the same way, a lot like the Artificial Intelligence programing in some computer games.

OK, have a good laugh, I don't mind. If I can make you crack a smile, then I will take it as a good thing.

If it's a predator, they hunt, kill, eat, sleep, drink, that same way all the time. If a Cow, it does what cows always have done. Pick any animal, they do as they always have.

Surely the same can't be said for mankind who is obviously always looking for some higher state of being, and bettering for himself. Sure, some things in mankind's nature never change...such as his deceitfulness, even deceiving himself quite often etc.


This is something I have thought about John I actually wrote about it on my little private forum,

We are reaching the end of our allotment of knowledge.

Try to imagine, beyond the image, vision beyond vision, conceptualize a new thought, can you?

Imagine every thought that has ever been thought, someone has thought before you.

Limitations, we can only go so far in our understanding, limitation have been set upon us.

Everything has its limits, the bee lives its life as a bee doing and knowing bee things, never leaving the realm of bee understanding,

So it is with us we live our life in the human realm.
Supercomputers let down by lack of deep thought
www.computerweekly.com...


Supercomputers have the potential to solve deeper questions, but fail to do so because the scientists that design them lack insight, speakers at the National Science Foundation supercomputer symposium have said.



[edit on 093131p://bSaturday2009 by Stormdancer777]



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:18 AM
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Originally posted by John Matrix
But intelligent observation of people and how they interact and how they are prone to destruction, murder, cereal killings, suicide, rape, stealing, cheating, lying, falsehood, delusions, ignorance, willful ignorance, self exaltation's, destroying the environment, warmongering, etc. etc. etc. These all tell me that we are in a fallen state, need a redeemer, and have rejected the redeemer.



Not like 100 or 1000 or 2000 thousand years ago when there was no rape or murder right? Care to produce some stats on this?



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:20 AM
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Originally posted by Luciferdescending

Originally posted by John Matrix

You miss the point. It has nothing to do with whether I can prove the OP. It cannot be proven nor can it be disproved.



Stop, shhhhhhhhhh. Read. I never asked you to prove the OP. I asked you to back up the things you were saying about me. I guess we can cross reading comprehension off the list as well.


I'm sorry, I did read it, but I am not going to allow you to force me to write an essay for you, because it would be a waste of time.

By the way, you do look hot!! So please don't take my criticism too hard. You could do without the devil wings and pointed tail though.


[edit on 24/1/09 by John Matrix]



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:30 AM
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Originally posted by John Matrix

I'm sorry, I did read it, but I am not going to allow you to force me to write an essay for you, because it would be a waste of time.


Then why bother to take the time to type this -

You miss the point. It has nothing to do with whether I can prove the OP.
???

If you read it, you know I never asked you to prove the OP. If you do not want to write for me, why bother to write something so irrelevant?


By the way, you do look hot!! So please don't take my criticism too hard. You could do without the devil wings and pointed tail though.


I knew you were into hooves.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:32 AM
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Originally posted by Luciferdescending

Originally posted by John Matrix
But intelligent observation of people and how they interact and how they are prone to destruction, murder, cereal killings, suicide, rape, stealing, cheating, lying, falsehood, delusions, ignorance, willful ignorance, self exaltation's, destroying the environment, warmongering, etc. etc. etc. These all tell me that we are in a fallen state, need a redeemer, and have rejected the redeemer.



Not like 100 or 1000 or 2000 thousand years ago when there was no rape or murder right? Care to produce some stats on this?


If you are being sarcastic and implying this has gone on for thousands of years then you are adding more proof to my point, because unbelief and rebellion against God was flourishing throughout the centuries. However, today, the flood gates are open to all manner of inventive and creative ways to cause murder, death , and destruction. One only has to watch CNN for an hour to see it.



posted on Jan, 24 2009 @ 09:36 AM
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Originally posted by Luciferdescending

I knew you were into hooves.


Yes! But that's a camel toe isn't it?




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