The Bible, Man's book or God's Word?

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
Wow, you're really fluffy and warm inside huh? "Vomit" "bowels" and "hell" in one confounding AND insulting sentence, i see where you're coming from!!!

Can I point out that you are passing judgement on yourself here.
The sentence about "vomit", "bowels" and "hell" was your own sentence which the poster was quoting.
You think your own words were insulting, and that there is something bad about where they were coming from?
Do you not think, perhaps, that your attitude towards other posters is thoroughly dualistic?

[edit on 20-7-2010 by DISRAELI]

reply to post by Michael Cecil

The word "heart" is a code word reference to the Revelation of the "resurrection", which is received in the heart.

And everything else is encoded too? So that only enlightened ones such as yourself can understand, and us poor people need you to guide us to salvation. Or correct thinking. or the right doctrines. Since we foolishly believe WITH OUR HEARTS in Jesus? And the bible.

And neither are you aware that the fool who says "in his heart" that 'there is no God' almost always says in his head that there is a God.

Proverbs 17:16
Wherefore is there a price in the hand of a fool to get wisdom, seeing he hath no heart to it?

I prefer this version (New Living Translation):

It is senseless to pay tuition to educate a fool, since he has no heart for learning.

You are far outside of your area of any expertise here. These subjects are far above your pay grade.

Yes, clearly

But wait! There's more:

You have never received any Revelations; you can't even understand the difference between "heart" and "head".

Let me be very clear on what i know, the revelation that i have received:

Galatians 2:20
I am crucified with Christ: neverthless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Resurrected enough for you?

reply to post by DISRAELI


I like your signature

Nope, he (like me) are having troubles with quotation marks

Originally posted by harryhaller
reply to post by Michael Cecil

 

The word "heart" is a code word reference to the Revelation of the "resurrection", which is received in the heart.

And everything else is encoded too?

No, just a few things: the Revelation of the "resurrection" and the Vision of the "Son of man" had to be written in coded language to prevent those writings being destroyed by people just like you.

In fact, it was shortly after I began writing about the "code word references" in the Dead Sea Scrolls to the Revelation of the "resurrection" that the book on the Bible codes was published for the purpose of distracting people with codes about events in the space-time reality.

And which writing was published and widely publicized by the media?

That writing which satisfied the desires of the "self" and 'thinker'.

By the way, you have not received any "revelation" any more than the Satanist-Pharisee Paul received a Revelation.

Everything you say occurs exclusively at the level of the "beast of the sea" -"self" and the "beast of the earth"-'thinker'; that is, the 'fallen' consciousness.

You can expropriate any word you want to in an effort to claim anything you want to; but there is nothing behind it.

It has no more reality than fiat money which is not backed with any precious metal.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by Michael Cecil

By the way, you have not received any "revelation" any more than the Satanist-Pharisee Paul received a Revelation.

So am i a christian or a satanist? People just like me apparently don't know their own hearts or minds.

You can expropriate any word you want to in an effort to claim anything you want to; but there is nothing behind it.

I couldn't have said it better then that.

1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

This puts me in the same camp as Paul, and Peter, and all the other followers of Christ. (or according to you "satanists")

Where does it put you?

Luke 21:8 (NIV)
He said, "Be careful that you are not deceived, because many will come in my name and say, 'I AM' and 'The time has come.' Don't follow them.

You think quite highly of yourself, Michael Cecil. Pride and falls and thinking and such. Why should we think any more of you than you of us? Again, you seem to claim some divine right of knowledge, hidden to all the rest. You claim that you alone stand for truth, yet you obfuscate and muddy the waters with your clever tongue and deceptive ideas.

2 John 1:7
For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Originally posted by harryhaller

I couldn't have said it better then that.

Then that???

What's that supposed to mean?

Maybe you should at least learn to spell before you enter into an argument with someone whose arrival...

Oh, never mind.

You wouldn't understand.

Michael Cecil



[edit on 20-7-2010 by Michael Cecil]

Info to Note about Gnosticism:

HERE FOLKS

reply to post by abe froman


Agreed Abe.

Right now I'm leaning more toward: Gnostics versus literalists have derailed my thread!

The conversation has gone far far away from the original topic and honestly I don't know how to bring it back on track.

NOTurTypical
I like you time line.

Michael Cecil

That 'alternative' explanation was "vicarious atonement"; something which would have been utterly impossible unless Jesus had been 'God' 'Himself'; and, not surprisingly, preserved the doctrine of a physical resurrection.

There is the problem. Jesus WAS God.

John 1: 1, 14
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Hebrews 1:8
But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.

Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: No rebirth, just a certain fearful looking to of judgment.

Michael Cecil
Hebrews 9:27
And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Kap
No, I cannot decided to kill anyone. Neither can you. God made the decision to destroy an entire nation, and yes He had a reason and it was right.

Titen-Sxull

they teach their children that they were born into sin, they tear the child down and rebuild them so that they NEED this religion to be whole.

Humility is a good trait. We have far too many egocentric people. People who don't need Jesus need something else, perhaps anger, a cause, an addiction...there are many possibilities.
Children go to heaven. David and an infant. His servants were afraid to tell him the child died, but when he knew, he stopped praying that God would heal the baby and told the servants that he would see the baby again some day.
How to get the thread back on track? Repost the original question. Yes, God did order Israel to kill all the men, women, and children. Yes, He was right in doing so.
We live in a nation of laws. We can chose any action we please, but we do not chose the consequence for breaking the law. We know the laws in America. God wrote His laws in a book, you can read them yourself. Do your decisions affect your children? Of course they do.

reply to post by zachi

His servants were afraid to tell him the child died, but when he knew, he stopped praying that God would heal the baby and told the servants that he would see the baby again some day.

Is that the child he had with Bathsheba? The one that God decided to kill instead of punishing David? You know according to the Deuteronomy 22 the penalty for adultery is meant to be death for both the man and the woman right? And yet the God character in the Bible once again proves he is not above infanticide and will even chose it over punishing the actual sinners. Its the same thing he does in Egypt punishing the innocent for the stubbornness of the Pharaoh (the hardness of Pharaoh's heart however was YAHWEH's doing, he purposefully hardened Pharaoh's heart).

Yes, God did order Israel to kill all the men, women, and children. Yes, He was right in doing so.

Congratulations you've once again defended the command to slaughter innocent children and claim that GOD WAS RIGHT.

[sarcasm]
Those kids totally deserved death at the hands of the Israelites, you're right, God should kill all the children of unbelievers and the wicked, they all deserve to die horrific deaths.[/sarcasm]

I used to think that everyone living in the modern world was morally superior to the Biblical God, I've just found someone who isn't. You've just defended what has to be the single most evil and vile act I can think of. I think many others would agree that it doesn't get much more sinful than child murder. Genocide and child murder are being commanded by a God who is meant to be good and you see NO contradiction?

:bnghd: :bnghd:

God wrote His laws in a book, you can read them yourself.

And his law is about as morally reprehensible as can be imagined. You know what happens to a virgin who is pledged to be married but gets raped?

Deuteronomy 22: 23-24

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24 you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the girl because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another man's wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

Source

Note that in this verse the man is being put to death NOT for raping someone but for adultery because this woman BELONGS to someone else (in the future).

That is not the edict of a divine or loving being. The Bible is NOT the word of God.

[edit on 20-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

[edit on 20-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

[edit on 20-7-2010 by Titen-Sxull]

reply to post by NOTurTypical

Only certain Christians possessed special knowledge (or "gnosis"), and that this knowledge was only given to the spiritual, the few, the "insiders". Not everyone had this "divine spark" -- only those "in the know" - the intellectuals. Those lacking this spiritual knowledge -- well, they were doomed. According to Gnosticism, salvation is attained through the acquisition of special "secret" knowledge, not by grace through faith as the Bible teaches.

That sounds remarkably familiar, thank you for this, invaluable reading

Titen-Sxull: Your thread has NOT been derailed sir. I think this latest series of posts has been confirmation that it's its been a very relevant question.

I think you've identified 2 operatives in your OP: whether the bible is historically true, and whether the God spoken of is indeed a "worthy" one.

With the former, i don't think i've seen any evidence it's been falsified. The stories are what they are, and they were written for record.

As to the latter ...

Isaiah 55:9
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

You see this is where faith comes in? I mean, i read about Elisha and the bears, 2 "she-bears" killed 42 children who teased the old prophet, he cursed them. I don't understand that. AT ALL. Just like i don't understand half the "higher grade" stuff. But the truth is: i know the bible is true, and i know that it's all about accepting Jesus as the Saviour.

I am only a child, in this world. Full of awe and wonder for the things i find around me, stars, flowers, people, etc. But like a child doesn't understand adult things, i don't understand the ways of God. The only thing a child understands is that they belong there, and are truly safe there. We learn, and watch, and hopefully listen.

We've got things we need to learn to become adults, but growing up is fun, isn't it? My kids all seem to think so ...

[edit on 21-7-2010 by FiatLux]

reply to post by Michael Cecil


I think Harry should have asked you this. Who do you prefer to serve the most? The self, or, the spiritual all within?

reply to post by randyvs


Really Randy, Huckabee? I think I'm a bit nauseas after that. If Huckabee, a guy who works on Faux News, is the best spokesperson for the Bible you can come with you will have one heck of an uphill battle.

And his excuse for the horrific parts: Those are allegorical

Yeah Huck, a LAW for the Israelites telling people who they have to stone, that's an "allegory". Thanks for the laugh Randy.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


"a LAW for the Israelites"

For if the inheritance is of the law, it is no longer of promise; but God gave it to Abraham by promise.19 What purpose then does the law serve? It was added because of transgressions, UNTIL the Seed should come to whom the promise was made-Gal3

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
-John1.17

reply to post by No King but Jesus


In Matthew 5:18 Jesus himself says that not a letter of the law will pass away until Earth disappears.

The Bible therefore contradicts itself on whether or not the Old Testament law still applies. Also note that Jesus's teachings are typically more gentle than those of Yahweh/Elohim. Jesus wants you to turn the other cheek, Yahweh wants an eye for an eye. Jesus wants you to love your enemies, Yahweh sends out the Israelites to utterly slaughter numerous ancient peoples and often takes slaves and kill infants (the Amalekite children were to be killed).

The God of the Bible is meant to be all powerful that means in order for him to resort to commanding the death of infants, or killing them himself as in Egypt, he WANTS them dead. Yahweh wants to kill these babies, if he didn't he would be able to, in his all powerful all loving nature, find a way to succeed without getting blood on his hands or the hands of his people.

Jesus on the other hand, as the song goes, "Loves the little children of the world". And demands that we "become like a little child" and scolded the disciples when they sent the children away. Either Jesus was 100% not Yahweh in a human body or the God of the Bible has repented of his wicked ways and is now spreading a Gospel of peace rather than a covenant and law of bloodshed and evil.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


well most translations say- all accomplished or fullfiled, and technically could get into a better key word translation from Nomos but no need to-could easily just say your earth is under law until faith or belief appears-hence go and preach this good news to all races/gentiles/nations/creation/earth!

Christ is the end(fullfiled,accomplished) of the law so that there may be righteousness for everyone who believes.-Rom10.4

But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.-Rom3.21

And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins.-1Cor15.17

The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.-1Cor15.56

Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.-Rom7.9

The last enemy to be destroyed is death.-.26

because law brings wrath.-Rom4.15

Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them." Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."-Gal3.11

without faith it is impossible to please God-Heb11.6

Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come!-2Cor5.17

"Behold, I will create new heavens and a new earth. The former things will not be remembered, nor will they come to mind.-Is65.17

Here there is no Greek or Jew, circumcised or uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave or free, but Christ is all-Col3.11

"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all.-John3.31

So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being" ; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.-1Cor15.45

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."-Gal5.14

does any of this help? have you seen or read my testimony?


[edit on by No King but Jesus]

reply to post by No King but Jesus

Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who is hung on a tree."-Gal3.11

Was Christ hung on a tree or a cross? Or are they synonymous.

Okay so Paul seems an avid proponent of the idea that Old Testament law no longer need apply but then WHY was it left in the Bible? Why leave such horrific laws in the book for all to see? People being stoned for working on the sabbath day, not being virgins on their wedding night, being raped but not crying out (if they live in a town, Deuteronomy 22: 23-24 if I recall correctly). Slavery being condoned, rules on how hard to beat your slave and for what offenses a disobedient child can be put to death or beaten... Why would they leave that in there if it is so clearly not the work of a good God?

Anyway thanks for the verses, definitely sheds some light on, at the very least, The Apostle Paul's opinion on whether the law would apply in a post-Christ world.

reply to post by Titen-Sxull


no problem but it was'nt just Paul, even to the other end of the spectrum was Moses -

For Moses said, 'The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you. 23Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from among his people.'-Acts3 from Deut18