The Bible, Man's book or God's Word?

Originally posted by Kapyong
Gday,

Originally posted by plube
the apostles themselves wrote their bits anywhere from 60-90AD

revelations about 130Ad

and then in 1604AD low and behold comes along king james and says lets translate this stuff and put it into a collective and hand this out to the people as true doctrine

As if nothing happened between 130 and 1604 ?

In fact,
the bible was translated many times, from 3rd or 4th century on.

[edit on 17-7-2010 by Kapyong]

There my point well answered.....LOST IN TRANSLATION

I was talking about when the king James Version was finally commissioned and lots and lots a of translations happened and also many important ommissions occured so that is exactly my point.
(MANS BOOK)

and if you would be kind enough to click on the links i posted you might find other interesting information the stuff about Mithra that you keep on about...and you might find some enlightening things about others.

this is not about PROOF PROOF PROOF this is more about objective rather than subjective thinking.

open mind to other possibilties....not asking anyone to discount their gods...just if your going to follow the biblical god and you believe if wholeheartedly then you know that we ate from the tree of KNOWLEDGE

knowledge is about seeking...and the more you seek knowledge the more you will comprehend...also in the book of daniel he prophezied there will an overflowing abundance of knowledge...and since your all so well read up on it you will know i am right in what i say.

so learn we are not here talking about jesus or god...we are talking about the THREAD .... the bible mans work or gods word.

my camparison to other god and deities was to show my belief this is mans book.... which least i am trying to provide valid information where as the feedback on a lot os this is just words from the same book we are discussing.




[edit on 18-7-2010 by plube]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by plube]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by plube]

Originally posted by plube

Originally posted by Kapyong
Gday,

Originally posted by plube
the apostles themselves wrote their bits anywhere from 60-90AD

revelations about 130Ad

and then in 1604AD low and behold comes along king james and says lets translate this stuff and put it into a collective and hand this out to the people as true doctrine

As if nothing happened between 130 and 1604 ?

In fact,
the bible was translated many times, from 3rd or 4th century on.

[edit on 17-7-2010 by Kapyong]

There my point well answered.....LOST IN TRANSLATION

Although religious doctrines can be "lost in translation", there are some things which cannot be lost in translation. That is why they are conveyed by means of symbols.

Anyone who receives the Vision of the "Son of man" (referred to in the Thanksgiving Hymns of the Dead Sea Scrolls as the "Vision of Knowledge") and the Revelation of the Memory of Creation (Genesis 2:7) has the Knowledge required to be able to recognize that Genesis and the Koran both consist of Knowledge Revealed through those two specific Revelations.

Maimonides asserted that there was no prophet greater than Moses.

But Isaiah, Daniel, Ezekiel, Jesus and Mohammed all received precisely the same two fundamental Revelations as had been received by Moses.

That is the significance of the term "Night Journey" in the Koran.

Of course, were this to be widely known, there would not be any where near as much violence in the Middle East as there is today...

And, at the same time, there would be tens of thousands of parasite religious 'authorities' who would be out of their jobs; which is why these Truths are being suppressed and censored by these religious 'authorities' and their accomplices in the media.

Michael Cecil

reply to post by Michael Cecil


Well said Michael symbology and sybolism is a much better representation to what has been said and how things my be understood as we move forward.

the written word can be so misconstrued and misinterpreted by each and evey individual reader of the text,

which again leads back to my point when the King James version became so widely incorporated as the new doctrine it was not translated through symbology but it was compilied by the kings scribes whom would have also be out to impress the king as he was a well read theologin himself.

plus you as a scribe would tend to want to write the very things that your employer would expect or it could mean disaster for your career.

i will now go and read some more of the book of the dead as i am compiling a set of points out that i hope will be more suitable for LV as nothing picks me more than when people dont go and look deeply into what might said and i will also search into some of your previous points for my own satisfaction......i dont ask you to prove it to me ...i search out the proof formyself (little dig there ....lol).

an example

New International Version (©1984)
But you, Daniel, close up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge."
New Living Translation (©2007)
But you, Daniel, keep this prophecy a secret; seal up the book until the time of the end, when many will rush here and there, and knowledge will increase."

English Standard Version (©2001)
But you, Daniel, shut up the words and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"But as for you, Daniel, conceal these words and seal up the book until the end of time; many will go back and forth, and knowledge will increase."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"But you, Daniel, keep these words secret, and seal the book until the end times. Many will travel everywhere, and knowledge will grow."

King James Bible
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

American King James Version
But you, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

American Standard Version
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Bible in Basic English
But as for you, O Daniel, let the words be kept secret and the book rolled up and kept shut till the time of the end: numbers will be going out of the way and troubles will be increased.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time appointed: many shall pass over, and knowledge shall be manifold.

Darby Bible Translation
And thou, Daniel, close the words, and seal the book, till the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

English Revised Version
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Webster's Bible Translation
But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

World English Bible
But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run back and forth, and knowledge shall be increased."

Young's Literal Translation
And thou, O Daniel, hide the things, and seal the book till the time of the end, many do go to and fro, and knowledge is multiplied.'









[edit on 18-7-2010 by plube]

Originally posted by plube
reply to post by Michael Cecil

 

Well said Michael symbology and sybolism is a much better representation to what has been said and how things my be understood as we move forward.

When the Christian "beast of the earth"-'thinker'-theologians interpret the Book of Daniel 12:4:

New Living Translation (©2007)

"But you, Daniel, keep this prophecy a secret; seal up the book until the time of the end, when many will rush here and there, and knowledge will increase."

the only thing that they can 'think' is that what is being referred to here are the fulfillment of specific Prophecies in the space-time reality.

The last thing they would be willing to admit is that they are wrong about the Revelation and Doctrine of the "resurrection" itself:

The Book of Daniel 12:2:

"Of those who lie sleeping in the dust of the earth many will awake, some to everlasting Life, some to shame and everlasting disgrace."

This refers to the revelation of the memories of previous lives; a Teaching that has been "kept secret" by Jewish, Christian and Muslim religious 'authorities' over the past 2500 years.

And, as Trinity (representing the 3 dimensions of consciousness Revealed through the Revelation of the "resurrection) in The Matrix says just before shooting an "agent" (an agent representing the "beast of the earth'-'thinker'-theologians) in the head:

"Dodge this."

(Thanks, honey.)

Michael Cecil



[edit on 18-7-2010 by Michael Cecil]

[edit on 18-7-2010 by Michael Cecil]

Originally posted by Michael Cecil
Thanks for typing out the reply of Jesus to the Sadducees in the Gospel of Luke; but let me first address the reply of Jesus to the Sadducees in the Gospel of Matthew 22:28:

The question the Sadducees ask is the same. But Jesus begins his reply differently: "You are wrong, because you understand neither the Scriptures nor the power of God..."

And your error, the error of Paul, the error of Christian theology, the error that resulted in the extermination of millions of Jews in the Holocaust is based very directly upon your misunderstanding of these three words by Jesus: "You are wrong."

The Sadducees are not making any direct assertion; they are asking a question. And, while an assertion can be wrong, how can a question be wrong?

First of all Jesus is omniscient, He knew their hearts and knew they did not believe in a resurrection. It says that plainly in the text. So their question was not one of inquiry, they were mocking Him and trying to make Him stumble. Jesus does say "you are wrong", He never says or implies they are wrong for believing there is a resurrection (even though they don't believe that), He is saying they are wrong for thinking there is marriage after the resurrection. that's the only thing Jesus says "you're wrong" about... MARRIAGE.

A question can be wrong when the assumption upon which it is based is wrong.

true, but if that were the case HERE then Jesus would have said "You're wrong, there is no resurrection..." He clearly does not, all Jesus says that after the resurrection there is no marriage.

Jesus is directly, specifically, and emphatically denying that the "resurrection" is a physical raising of a dead body from the grave. In other words, what he is saying is "You can't ask a question like that, because the question itself makes no sense." It is like asking how many inches are in a kilogram.

Jesus never denies a resurrection, you're nuts. he merely says that their error is thinking there is going to be marriage after the resurrection.

Just like Paul determined about the Gnostics.

Paul thought the Gnostics had to die?? Interesting, the movement became popular almost 100 years after Paul died. LOL Secondly, Paul taught what Jesus said, which was to love, pray for, and bless your enemies.

So the Gnostics, who you hate so much, taught the Doctrine taught by Jesus.

I disagree they taught the doctrine Jesus taught. And secondly, I do not hate the Gnostics, I hate their THEOLOGY. Doctrine is not physical, it's an idea, that's what I'm firmly against, the Gnostic ideas about Christ. It is possible to hate the sin and not the sinner.

And Paul taught the doctrine to which Jesus was referring when he said, quite emphatically, "You are wrong."

Jesus never claimed the Sadducees were wrong about the resurrection, for the text plainly says they didn't believe in the resurrection. Jesus says they are wrong for saying there will be marriage in the resurrection.








[edit on 18-7-2010 by NOTurTypical]

Originally posted by NOTurTypical

Jesus never claimed the Sadducees were wrong about the resurrection, for the text plainly says they didn't believe in the resurrection.

I prefer to argue with people with more than two active brain cells; but here goes:

When the Gospels say "...the Sadducees who say there is no resurrection", what it means is that the Sadducees denied the "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'. That is what the meaning of the "resurrection" was to those who wrote the Gospels.

In other words, the entire definition of the word "resurrection" in and of itself has, for the past 2500 years, been filtered through the Egyptian-Pharisaical-Satanic doctrine of the physical raising of a dead body from the grave taught by Paul who murdered the original followers of Jesus for that specific reason.

And, if you can't understand that it is a violation of the Moral Law to exterminate tens of thousands of Albigensians, who taught the "resurrection" as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth', you are beyond anyone's ability to help you.

If you can't see that the Satanic idolatrization of Jesus as 'God', which is a necessary corollary to the Satanic doctrine of "vicarious atonement', was directly responsible for the demonization of "the Jews", resulting in the slaughter of millions of Jews during the Holocaust...

If you cannot see these thing with your own eyes, no amount of arguing is going to remedy that situation.

In fact, this kind of thing is even specifically referred to in the Treatise On Resurrection:

"But if there is one who does not believe, he does not have the (capacity to be) persuaded. For it is the domain of faith, my son, and not that which belong to persuasion: the dead shall arise."

Translation: You will receive the revelation of the memories of previous lives.

"There is one who believes among the philosophers who are in this world. At least he will arise. And let not the philosopher who is in this world have cause to believe that he is one who returns himself by himself--and (that) because of our faith."

Translation: The philosopher who is "in this world" is Plato, who believed in the metaphysical doctrine of reincarnation; which depends upon the belief in a metaphysical 'soul' which has an inherent 'power' to reincarnate ("one who returns himself by himself"). The phrase "and that because of our faith" is a reference to the Power of the Creator to raise people from the dead. It has nothing whatsoever to do with any inherent abilities of a metaphysical 'soul'.

Michael Cecil

reply to post by Michael Cecil

If you prefer to ignore the straight meaning of the text, and offer your own, somewhat contrived, interpretation, there is no need to be insulting towards people who refuse to follow in your tracks.

I think I can sum up NUT's point in two lines;
The Sadducees thought they had found a quibble which proved that resurrection was impossible (the "reductio ad absurdam" approach).
Jesus was simply explaining why the quibble was irrelevant; and his point was that they disbelieved in the resurrection only because they underestimated the power of God, which made resurrection possible.

There is no evidence whatever that Saul persecuted the early Christians, in his pre-Christian days, because they taught the doctrine of "rebirth".
There is no evidence whatever that any genuine Christians taught the doctrine of rebirth (obviously I'm implicitly excluding the author of your Nag Hammadi MSS from that description)

Originally posted by DISRAELI
reply to post by Michael Cecil

 

If you prefer to ignore the straight meaning of the text, and offer your own, somewhat contrived, interpretation, there is no need to be insulting towards people who refuse to follow in your tracks.

I think I can sum up NUT's point in two lines;
The Sadducees thought they had found a quibble which proved that resurrection was impossible (the "reductio ad absurdam" approach).
Jesus was simply explaining why the quibble was irrelevant; and his point was that they disbelieved in the resurrection only because they underestimated the power of God, which made resurrection possible.

There is no evidence whatever that Saul persecuted the early Christians, in his pre-Christian days, because they taught the doctrine of "rebirth".
There is no evidence whatever that any genuine Christians taught the doctrine of rebirth (obviously I'm implicitly excluding the author of your Nag Hammadi MSS from that description)

And there are hundreds of millions of Christians who believe such a Satanic doctrine, and who knows how many more Jews and Muslims.

And just look at the condition the world is in.

Just look at it.

The Middle East on the verge of a war which has the ability to exterminate all of human civilization itself...

And every damned Jewish, Christian and Muslim theologian and their hundreds of millions of gullible followers saying:

It's not my fault."

There is a point at which stupidity and arrogance seamlessly slides into evil.

Michael Cecil

Originally posted by Michael Cecil

And there are hundreds of millions of Christians who believe such a doctrine, and who knows how many more Jews and Muslims.

And just look at the condition the world is in.

Just look at it.

The Middle East on the verge of a war which has the ability to exterminate all of human civilization itself...

The condition of the world has no relevance whatever to the question under discussion, which is whether Jesus taught that doctine or another.

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Michael Cecil

And there are hundreds of millions of Christians who believe such a doctrine, and who knows how many more Jews and Muslims.

And just look at the condition the world is in.

Just look at it.

The Middle East on the verge of a war which has the ability to exterminate all of human civilization itself...

The condition of the world has no relevance whatever to the question under discussion, which is whether Jesus taught that doctine or another.

There is a direct and very specific connection between the censorship and suppression of the Truth about the Doctrine of "resurrection" and the violence and bloodshed between Jews, Christians and Muslims; especially in the Middle East, and which is the substance of the conflict over Jerusalem.

The censorship and suppression of the Doctrine of "resurrection" as a Doctrine taught by Isaiah, Daniel, Jesus and Mohammed as a Doctrine of 'Rebirth' is, in fact, the reason for the Prophecies I have received of the coming "time of trouble" Prophesied in the Book of Daniel 12:1 in which many millions upon millions of humans will be slaughtered as a result of the initiation of a war with Iran.

But neither the Jewish, Christian, nor Muslim religious 'authorities'--nor their accomplices in the media--care in the least about either Doctrinal Truth or genocide when their jobs are threatened by that Truth and those Prophecies.

Neither the Jewish nor the Christian leaders have yet learned the lesson of the Holocaust: that Satanic doctrines result in the manifestation of Satanic behaviors.

And, it was not until after millions of Jews had been slaughtered in the Holocaust that the Nag Hammadi Codices and the Dead Sea Scrolls were even discovered; thereby providing documents which clearly demonstrate the degree to which the Jewish and Christian religious 'authorities' had turned upside down the Teaching of Moses, Isaiah, Daniel and Jesus (that message, of course, being censored and suppressed by the very same religious 'authorities' and media officials whose demonic doctrines were the cause of the Holocaust in the first place); the mission of Mohammed being to convey, yet again, the Truth about the Doctrine of the "resurrection", contradicting the demonic lies of the Jewish religious 'authorities' that Jesus was not the messiah, and contradicting the blasphemous, idolatrous and Satanic doctrines of the Christians that Jesus was 'God'.

Similarly, it will, most likely, not be until after the horrors of the coming "time of trouble" that the Truth Revealed to Moses, Isaiah, Daniel, Jesus, John and Mohammed will be widely known on this planet.

This is what I must conclude after trying, for more than 34 years, to inform and warn the people on this planet of the Revelations and the Prophecies I have received.

Michael Cecil

reply to post by Milkyway71933


I think there is such a thing as a mature healthy ego that does not desire for individuality and division amongst the ONE Spirit.

Its so dumb - you have one side who rejects the Bible 100% and another side that embraces it 100% - but reality is not black/white, it is many shades in between.

Originally posted by Michael Cecil

There is a direct and very specific connection between the censorship and suppression of the Truth about the Doctrine of "resurrection" and the violence and bloodshed between Jews, Christians and Muslims; especially in the Middle East, and which is the substance of the conflict over Jerusalem.

This is not the case. They are not fighting specifically because of their views about resurrection, and if they believed in Rebirth they would still be fighting. It would make no difference.

In any case, what you are trying to show in this discussion is;
That "Resurrection" is not true.
That "Resurrection" was not taught by Jesus.
Tha argument that "Resurrection causes war" does nothing whatever to demonstrate either of those two points, and therefore it has no relevance.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Its so dumb - you have one side who rejects the Bible 100% and another side that embraces it 100% - but reality is not black/white, it is many shades in between.

edit on by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

But both sides consider it of utmost importance?

And believing the bible is perhaps not the same believing it's message?

Part of (IMHO) the message of the NT and Jesus is that dogmas and doctrines get in the way of the more important things. I entirely agree, of course.

Originally posted by Skyfloating
Its so dumb - you have one side who rejects the Bible 100% and another side that embraces it 100% - but reality is not black/white, it is many shades in between.

edit on by Skyfloating because: (no reason given)

Let me please ask, are there shades of gray in Dianetics? Greek mythology? Or just the bible?

Originally posted by DISRAELI

Originally posted by Michael Cecil

There is a direct and very specific connection between the censorship and suppression of the Truth about the Doctrine of "resurrection" and the violence and bloodshed between Jews, Christians and Muslims; especially in the Middle East, and which is the substance of the conflict over Jerusalem.

This is not the case. They are not fighting specifically because of their views about resurrection, and if they believed in Rebirth they would still be fighting. It would make no difference.

In any case, what you are trying to show in this discussion is;
That "Resurrection" is not true.
That "Resurrection" was not taught by Jesus.
Tha argument that "Resurrection causes war" does nothing whatever to demonstrate either of those two points, and therefore it has no relevance.

You know absolutely nothing about either the dualistic consciousness or the "observing consciousness" Created by and in the image of God.

Nothing.

In terms of history, it is important to understand the sequence of events:

How many millions of people were slaughtered in the 20th century?

The Russian revolution, World War I, World War II--including the purges in Russia, and Stalin and Hitler--killed how many millions of people?

Then, after all this slaughter, the Nag Hammadi Codices were discovered; which demonstrated that the Christian religious establishment had turned the Teaching of Jesus upside down. Then, in 1947, the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls was made known, demonstrating that the Jewish religious establishment had turned the Revelations in the Torah and the Prophets upside down. And, in these documents was demonstrated the origin of the Satanic doctrines which had resulted in all of this bloodshed--almost as if Western civilization was being given a very specific opportunity to repent of those Satanic doctrines in order to prevent such a mass extermination from ever occurring again.

And then what happened?

The religious 'authorities' and the media officials decided together and individually: "Hell no."

"We will not allow this information to be publicized. We will not allow people to know that the Doctrine of "resurrection" is a Doctrine of 'Rebirth'. We have been teaching these lies for almost 2000 years. And we have made billions of dollars by teaching these lies. To hell with the Truth. We have our jobs to worry about."

So, the Nag Hammadi Codices were simply ignored; and the Vatican and others pounced on the Dead Sea Scrolls to ensure that nothing would ever be publicized which in any way threatened Christian theology and the multi-billion dollar interests of Christianity, Inc.--just like the BP oil company will not allow the truth about the oil/methane volcano in the Gulf of Mexico to be publicized.

This is simply what corporations--even religious corporations--do when their economic interests are threatened.

And how many millions more have died since then?

In Korea, the purges in China, Viet Nam, Cambodia, the Middle East (Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon), Bosnia and Rwanda; then Iraq again and Iraq again and Lebanon again and again.

And now the Israel-United States is foaming at the mouth wanting to genocide the people of Iran.

Has this civilization yet learned that Satanic doctrines result in Satanic actions, confirming the statement by Jesus that "By their fruits you will know them"?

Hell no.

Then I come along and warn these very same religious 'authorities' and media officials--who are responsible for this genocide because of their censorship and suppression of the Truth--of these Doctrinal Truths and the Prophecies I have received unless the religious 'authorities' stop the teaching of these Satanic doctrines...

And everyone says that I am wrong.

But there is a very serious danger here as demonstrated by the sequence of the previous events.

The Nag Hammadi Codices and the Dead Sea Scrolls were not even discovered until after many millions of people had already been slaughtered.

And that is my expectation now as well.

I will not be able to convince anyone that I am telling the Truth--judging by the utter witlessness of most of the replies that I have received on this group--except those who were already capable of seeing the Truth in the first place; as is clearly explained in the Treatise On Resurrection...

Which, of course, fits in perfectly with the Vision/Prophecy that I received now almost 36 years ago--and which was subsequently validated by additional Prophecies over the succeeding years--in the first place.

Michael Cecil

reply to post by Skyfloating


Really?

I reject the Bible as the Word of God but I accept it as what it is, a book of myths penned by men. That seems the only logical conclusion to the question. Its not a matter of black and white on whether the Bible has any value or wisdom within, its just for the purpose of answering the question of whether its the Word of God.

Originally posted by Michael Cecil

In any case, what you are trying to show in this discussion is;
That "Resurrection" is not true.
That "Resurrection" was not taught by Jesus.
Tha argument that "Resurrection causes war" does nothing whatever to demonstrate either of those two points, and therefore it has no relevance.

In terms of history, it is important to understand the sequence of events:

How many millions of people were slaughtered in the 20th century?

The Russian revolution, World War I, World War II--including the purges in Russia, and Stalin and Hitler--killed how many millions of people?

And how many millions more have died since then?

In Korea, the purges in China, Viet Nam, Cambodia, the Middle East (Iran, Iraq, Palestine, Lebanon), Bosnia and Rwanda; then Iraq again and Iraq again and Lebanon again and again.

Michael Cecil

And all these wars and deaths are taking place because people are believing in the Resurrection?
That was Hitler's reason for invading Poland, was it? "We Germans believe in the Resurrection, and those Poles believe in the Resurrection, and therefore we must invade them."
The whole thesis is historical nonsense.

My quoted comments have not been answered.

reply to post by Michael Cecil


If you don't stop insulting people i'll ignore you. You seriously resemble a deluded crazy old man for whom a court order is a kindness. Now please behave like a civilised man or banish yourself to muttering at yourself.

Mkay?