Over 3000 rockets and mortars fired into Israel by Hamas in 2008

Originally posted by jaamaan

Originally posted by johnny2127
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

I would add that targets of the attacks are an important factor as well. Hamas purposefully targets innocents. While the innocent Israel kills are collateral damage. Not defending Israel on this, just saying that the intended targets are an important factor as well.

Off course you target innocent civilians when you drop so many heavy bombs on urban places.
Did you see the clouds some of these bombs give of in gaza, they span multiply city blocks.
That is just as much an act of murder.

Please don't act so ignorant. I know you are more intelligent than that. You know that not every bomb dropped was a heavy bomb, and you know that Hamas put its weapons placements and weapons caches in civilians areas. Then when they fire at Israeli troops and they respond, you can't be ignorant enough to argue that Israel 'targeted' civilians. Thats just an absurd statement. And if they were dropping so many heavy bombs on the civilian area, casualties would be much much higher. Your statement was one of flat out ignorance and generalities. No offense. I just expect more out of intelligent people, even if they don't agree with me I don't expect to see such absurd ignorant illogical statements

[edit on 9-1-2009 by johnny2127]

Originally posted by johnny2127

Please don't act so ignorant. I know you are more intelligent than that. You know that not every bomb dropped was a heavy bomb, and you know that Hamas put its weapons placements and weapons caches in civilians areas. Then when they fire at Israeli troops and they respond, you can't be ignorant enough to argue that Israel 'targeted' civilians. Thats just an absurd statement. And if they were dropping so many heavy bombs on the civilian area, casualties would be much much higher. Your statement was one of flat out ignorance and generalities. No offense. I just expect more out of intelligent people, even if they don't agree with me I don't expect to see such absurd ignorant illogical statements

[edit on 9-1-2009 by johnny2127]

You tell me 'No offense" but you call me "ignorant" 3 times in 1 post.

Maybe have a look at this video
Heavy bombs beeing dropped on Gaza

Than tell me, if you drop such a massive bomb in one of the most populated places in the region, you do not realise you will hit a lot of inocent people.
Than i think your own statement is an "absurd ignorant illogical statement"

So i stand by what i said, dropping such massive bombs on civilian places like these is a definition of targeting civilians.

Maybe ill spell it out.
There is a big city block with a load of people living there, it gets targeted, for what ever reason, for bombing.
Than you know you are targeting civilians to, i see no other way to explain this.




[edit on 9-1-2009 by jaamaan]

reply to post by jaamaan


Your so illogical its maddening. If a huge bomb it dropped on a heavily populated area, thousands die with that one bomb. You can't just say heavy bomb and then not have the logic to back it up. Not sure if you realize, but even precision bombs have quite the explosion. Thats what you are seeing there. And I'll repeat again, its Hamas that puts its citizens in harms way by putting their military in civilian areas and then firing on Israeli troops. How can you not get that?

Originally posted by johnny2127
reply to post by jaamaan

 

Your so illogical its maddening. If a huge bomb it dropped on a heavily populated area, thousands die with that one bomb. You can't just say heavy bomb and then not have the logic to back it up. Not sure if you realize, but even precision bombs have quite the explosion. Thats what you are seeing there. And I'll repeat again, its Hamas that puts its citizens in harms way by putting their military in civilian areas and then firing on Israeli troops. How can you not get that?

I think there are differet kinds of massive bombs.
You are talking about massive bombs that kill thousands.

I am talking about massive bombs trown on Gaza that have killed many.

Its still murder of innocent lives, even if you try to target hamas people.

"precision bombs" are mostly an illusion set out by the propaganda machines of the armies that use them.
Specialy in such a dense populated place.

Any way, the rockets in the OP are firecrackers compared to these massive DU bombs.

reply to post by jaamaan


Everything is a conspiracy to you huh? Well yes they are precision bombs. Look them up sometime. They are able to take a block full of homes or buildings and take out just the one home or building and leave the rest standing. That is precision.

And again, Israel is not targeting civilians. Hamas does not even value its citizens enough to keep them out of harms way. They value them so little they PLACE them in harms way. The put their weapons placements in civilian areas, homes, schools and hospitals and then fire at Israeli troops. What would you have Israel do? Let them keep firing? Send in troops and many get killed so people like you will be happier?

Hamas makes their citizens targets. Why can you not understand this?

johnny i see you are resorting to propaganda to support your point. If palestine is targetting children internationally, then where are all the international child casualties to palestinian violence? So what, someone in some news paper "claimed" they were doing this, and you just buy it with no bodies and no evidence?

Secondly, no one living in america can make any statements about other countries killing "civilians" or "innocents" as the majority of casualties in iraq (1230000) are civilians, just as the majority of the 2-4 million killed in vietnam, 750000 in cambodia, and 500000 in laos. Further, all israeli's are required to do mandatory military service, so technically none of them are "civilians", and Finally, if you are pointing to the group that is killing children, then why is it that hundreds of palestinian children are dead, and virtually no israeli children are??

Further you quote me as calling Hammas "freedom fighters".... if you read my article, i was not calling them freedom fighters, i was pointing out the irony that anyone who opposes US agenda is called a "freedom fighters", and anyone working against us are "terrorists", thereby invalidating the point of using either term.

Then finally you use a term from the hammas charter which has lately been revised to remove any violence and reflect a change in policy, AND which is mistranslated, and you refuse to point out that Zionism is a nationally recognized racist apartheid organization, formally committed to the destruction of palestinians.

AND you ignore the main points of my article which truly are unassailable, being the truth of what ceasefire means for israelis vs palestinians.

Originally posted by johnny2127
reply to post by blupblup

 

This is not a rhetorical question I just want to know what people think. For the sake of the question, lets say that Israel has killed 5 times as many palestinian citizens as Hamas has killed of Israeli's. If Hamas is purposefully targeting Israeli citizens, while Israel is targeting Hamas militants that are staging in civilian areas, does that effect your opinions on the death count on each side? In other words, does intention of targets make any difference?

How do you know Hamas Militants are staging in civilian areas? Did you personally see them hiding behind Kids? I think MSM has gotten to your head

reply to post by pexx421


They said it two days ago. And it was one of Hamas' main leader. Go look it up. There is no propaganda in that statement of their intent. Or of the facts of where they place weapons caches and placements. These are facts. Facts even Hamas admits. Do some research.

IN all wars when one group of people who are destitute and poor, is being assaulted by another overwhelming power, the weaker group incorporates their general populace, children, women, etc into the war effort. This happens in ALL nations which are being brutally oppressed and conquered, is not specific to palestine, and has been demonstrated in many wars the US commited on other sovereign nations such as vietnam. This is not a singular event, and if we in the US were under similar attack and occupation, we would likely be doing the same.

Originally posted by pexx421
And to the person who said "dont forget, hammas is a TERRORIST ORGANISATION" I hope you realise that you just said, in effect, Dont forget that hammas is an organisation our government does not approve of, after all, thats all the term "terrorist" means now. Freedom fighters are warriors our government approves of, that support american corporate and diplomatic agenda, and terrorists are everyone else with a gun.

Its funny that a man with a bomb on his chest that may kill 20 people is a "terrorist" but a man in a jet, with a bomb that can kill thousands with no risk to himself is a "public servant", and a defender of freedom and peace.

I agree 100%

reply to post by UntoldWorld


So let me get this straight, I have to see it in front of me? Satellite photos or news footage from middle eastern news agencies or news reports out of Egypt, and UN reports, those don't count? Even those super critical of Israel have stated the fact of Hamas weapons placement of caches being in civilian areas.

Why can't you believe that? Is it because if you did you may have to rethink your opinion? Think about it......

I have read and researched it, have you? It was mistranslated, as almost everything they say always is, for most dramatic effect. What he truly stated was along the lines of "the israeli murder of palestinians legitimizes the murder of israelis". Further a statement by one civilian cant be taken to be indicative of general populace support just as Pastor Roberts call for the assassination of Hugo Chavez several years ago was not indicative of american belief....except for by those looking for an excuse to vilify a whole people as you apparently are.

reply to post by johnny2127


So your telling me that your watching Arabic News Channels on whats going on in Gaza and there telling the people that Hamas militants are Staging by civilians??? What News are you watching? I am Arabic and I have a dish to watch All the Arabic News Channels In the middle east and not Aljazeera, and so far from the videos I have seen Hamas Militants trying to save and help the wounded from the streets Not hiding like cowards. Please Arabs can be anything but for sure Arabs are not Cowards.

Originally posted by johnny2127
reply to post by UntoldWorld

 

Satellite photos or news footage from middle eastern news agencies or news reports out of Egypt, and UN reports, those don't count?

What Satellite Photos Shows Hamas Militants Hiding By Civilians???????????? Do they have an X on their Head?

Originally posted by pexx421
I have read and researched it, have you? It was mistranslated, as almost everything they say always is, for most dramatic effect. What he truly stated was along the lines of "the israeli murder of palestinians legitimizes the murder of israelis". Further a statement by one civilian cant be taken to be indicative of general populace support just as Pastor Roberts call for the assassination of Hugo Chavez several years ago was not indicative of american belief....except for by those looking for an excuse to vilify a whole people as you apparently are.

Oh you have researched it huh? Comment made by one civilian. Wow, it was made by Mahmoud al-Zahar. Know who that is? One of the co-founders of Hamas.
en.wikipedia.org...

I love how you say you research and then lay an egg like that. LOL

But you are right, what he said (he's dead now), does not indicate at all what Palestinians think. But I do think its indicative of a large percentage of Hamas. Seems like one of the founders would have a pretty good handle on that sort of thing.

reply to post by UntoldWorld


Obviously someone like you could not be convinced they did this regardless of the evidence. There could be a video from Hamas stating that they do this, and you would say it was fake and propaganda.

Odd that you are the type to hold something like this that is agreed upon even by Israel's enemies to this high of level of proof, but then will believe some of the most absurd conspiracy theories without a scrap of proof. Hypocracy knows no bounds as they say.

reply to post by johnny2127


No I look at all Evidence I am not an Arab Living in the middle east I was born and grew Up in the US. I did look at all the evidence and Israel is to blame for what is going on in Gaza either they wanted to start WW3 or not. Israel has the technology to destroy all rockets fired into Israel. But let me ask you this If someone put you in a cage you would not fight back by any means?????? You would just sit in your cage and wait till you die???

reply to post by UntoldWorld


Your're missing something here. The reason Palestine was blockaded, and isolated. It wasn't always like that. It was because of the suicide bombings of Hamas militants. Constant unending attacks. Israel sat and took it for years, with some period of exception.

If we use your analogy of the cage, I guess I would flip it around. You never even considered why the animal is in the cage. If you kept getting scratched, bitten, punched, kicked by an animal, and regardless of any attempts you made it wouldn't stop doing this, what would you do? Cage the animal? Kill it? Ship it away and have someone else deal with it? (Just a disclaimer, this is not calling Palestinians animals, so please don't say that. Just an analogy).

You seem like an intelligent person. By I also read the contrarian personality type from your posts. They type that goes out of their way to be different. Which is all fine by the way. I make a point of not being the same myself. I just think most of the blame lies with Hamas. But yes I also think Israel bears some as well. Its not just a one sided thing like you speak of it.

800 dead.... 3200-3300 injured.

that is about as disproportionate as it gets....

Johnny i think your wrong in that. Israel has killled and oppressed the palestinians since the inception of the israeli state. It kicked off with the massacre of the palestinians, and has been a story of continued abuse and subjugation, combined with ever more theft of their land since then. Just look at the progression of maps showing the ever shrinking lands of the palestinians by year and you will see.