Over 3000 rockets and mortars fired into Israel by Hamas in 2008, page 4
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ATS Members have flagged this thread 5 times


reply posted on 9-1-2009 @ 01:33 PM by johnny2127
reply to post by pexx421



Very true on that point actually. I have heard some very sick stories from a few Palestinians I know that were passed on from grand parents about what happened at the very beginning. Sick and indefensible. Much how the actions of Hamas now are indefensible to me now. Like I said, Israel is not without blame. What some of the Israeli's did to Palestinians 60 years ago are flat out atrocities. Those were targeting civilians at that time. But in terms of taking the land, I do remind you that there was never a Palestine state. It was Syria and Jordan. But given the acts Israel committed 60 years ago, it doesn't justify the actions today. Its a cycle that will never end.

There is no innocent side. My commentary is on this situation is Gaza going on right now. It was sparked by Hamas. And again, sadly, the Palestinian people are paying a heavy price. But that is the fault of Hamas this time.



reply posted on 9-1-2009 @ 01:41 PM by BomSquad
I really hate to wade into this discussion, but I feel somethings need to be said in an objective and dispassionate matter even in the midst of a very passionate debate.

One thing that seems to keep being forgotten in the heat of the moment is that while Israel has blocked access to Gaza, they do not have total control over Gaza's borders. Gaza not only borders Israel but also borders Egypt. Why has Egypt not opened their border with Gaza to allow humanitarian aid?

On another note, where did all this talk about "proportionate response" come from? I'm not talking specifically about this conflict, though it could apply. War isn't about body counts. It's not about "you killed x number of us so we should be allowed to kill x number of you." War is about achieving goals with the fewest losses possible FOR YOUR SIDE. Yes there are rules to war. Non-combatants should be protected as much AS POSSIBLE and not specifically targeted. But there are other rules too. Rules that aren't talked about anymore because they are not very PC. When fighting a war, the parties involved have a responsibility to minimize the risks to their own personnel. When you assault a position that has non-combatants in it, there are some gruesome mathematics that have to be taken into account. How many of your own people are you willing to sacrifice to protect the non-combatants of the people who are trying to kill you? People forget that soldiers are people too. Their lives count as well.

I have to leave, but I'm not done with this point....

Be back later....


reply posted on 9-1-2009 @ 01:52 PM by johnny2127
reply to post by BomSquad



Completely agree. The idea of proportional response is so PC its sickening. If in wars, responses to actions were always proportionate, the wars would never end. The goal is to win and end the conflict so everyone can live in peace. Proportional responses lead to endless wars


reply posted on 9-1-2009 @ 02:59 PM by brighteyes
reply to post by pexx421



I think it boils down to the fact that the west feels it is being more and more populated by people of Muslim extract, and that our way of life is being eroded by the introduction of Islamic values which we don`t want to adopt. If Islam were your core belief why would you want to live in a predominantly Christian country? I know that sounds simplistic, but you`ve got to ask the question.
As an indiginous Londoner, I couldn`t imagine living under Islamic law, and thus wouldn`t live in an Islamic state, obvious really...


reply posted on 10-1-2009 @ 04:34 AM by johnny2127
reply to post by Vitchilo



Actually there were 31 deaths from the rocket attacks of 2008 BEFORE this Israeli offensive. Thanks for trying though. Next time do some research.


reply posted on 10-1-2009 @ 12:35 PM by pexx421
Wrong on all counts johnny. First off, the middle east was much more peaceful before western imperial involvement, just as most of the world has been. Western powers went in to the ME and arbitrarily divided them into seperate nations and set them against each other, and historically we have continued to arm them and push them to war with each other, but i do understand that this is the US's version of "peace", and friendly relations.

As to palestinians not being able to speak out about their government..... where did you hear THAT dribble?! The palestinians are a free and democratic people and have just as much right to speak their thoughts as the israelis do! I know many and have never seen them afraid to voice their oppinion....what did you just make that up and put it on here dressed as fact?!
At any rate, i wasnt talking about people IN their state protesting, i was talking about the hundreds of thousands of protesters all over the world who see the horror the israelis inflict upon the palestinians. Where are the american crowds protesting how the palestinians treat the israelis? Where are the european crowds protesting how the palestinians treat the israelis?? they dont exist, however in BOTH countries you see many thousands protesting the concentration camp existence and bombardment of the palestinians.

FYI, if ANYONE is supressing info it is the ISRAELIS who have denied for months all foreign media to the area, WHICH IS A CRIME!! Its funny how you can call those suppressing the media the "open and free society" and those who allow the media to show everything the place where information is suppressed. Black is white, and up is down....good ole american point of view. Go watch fox news or something.



reply posted on 10-1-2009 @ 01:52 PM by pexx421
I just reread your post and its funny to me that you put forth american backed coups in countries as a stabilizing force! thats pretty funny, its kinda like saying we are bringing freedom and democracy to iraq by bombing them into the stone age. But then we have a history of this, the same way we brought salvation and civilization to the native americans and the love of christ to both them and the african american tribesmen.

As two pointed examples of your error, i will list here both afghanistan and iran. Prior to our arming and training of Osama bin Laden and his mujahideen (who went on to become the taliban) afghanistan was in fact one of the most civilized, democratic, and westernized of the middle eastern countries. However, we chose to use rebels there to draw russia into war (russia was invited in by the legitimate government to save them from the mujahideen), and the country has been destroyed and destitute since.

Then to iran, again one of the most democratic and westernized, and indeed free nations in the mid east....prior to us overthrowing their ruler and installing the Shah, of course. A dictator and despot so despised that all the people of iran rose up and overthrew him, installed a religious leader and underwent a religious revolution in backlash to the garbage they had seen westernism inflict upon them, and which brings us to the situation we have today. Then we try to use the enriched uranium that were helping them to develop under the Shah, as an excuse to need to attack them now.

Not to mention that we helped put saddam into power, and kept arming him and pushing him to war on Iran, then decide later that we dont like him and destroy his country as well.

I guess THIS is the peace you speak of that we bring to the middle east.


reply posted on 10-1-2009 @ 07:44 PM by johnny2127
Originally posted by pexx421
Wrong on all counts johnny. First off, the middle east was much more peaceful before western imperial involvement, just as most of the world has been. Western powers went in to the ME and arbitrarily divided them into seperate nations and set them against each other, and historically we have continued to arm them and push them to war with each other, but i do understand that this is the US's version of "peace", and friendly relations.

As to palestinians not being able to speak out about their government..... where did you hear THAT dribble?! The palestinians are a free and democratic people and have just as much right to speak their thoughts as the israelis do! I know many and have never seen them afraid to voice their oppinion....what did you just make that up and put it on here dressed as fact?!
At any rate, i wasnt talking about people IN their state protesting, i was talking about the hundreds of thousands of protesters all over the world who see the horror the israelis inflict upon the palestinians. Where are the american crowds protesting how the palestinians treat the israelis? Where are the european crowds protesting how the palestinians treat the israelis?? they dont exist, however in BOTH countries you see many thousands protesting the concentration camp existence and bombardment of the palestinians.

FYI, if ANYONE is supressing info it is the ISRAELIS who have denied for months all foreign media to the area, WHICH IS A CRIME!! Its funny how you can call those suppressing the media the "open and free society" and those who allow the media to show everything the place where information is suppressed. Black is white, and up is down....good ole american point of view. Go watch fox news or something.


Such an absurd statement. The ME has never been a peaceful place. Ever. Before the west even existed as it is now, the middle east was tearing itself apart. Its the least peaceful region in the world, and has been for thousands of years. Anything else you want to blame the west for? Can't stand the blame America first haters out there


reply posted on 10-1-2009 @ 07:45 PM by johnny2127
reply to post by pexx421



You are certifiably illogical, misinformed and prejudice.


reply posted on 10-1-2009 @ 09:28 PM by Netzar


Fuerzas de Seguridad Palestinas saludan (sic) durante un entrenamiento en Tlkarem el 1 de Febrero de 2005" ( REUTERS/Abed Omar Qusini)


Palestinian Security Forces salute (sic) during a training session in Tlkarem, Feb 1st, 2005. (REUTERS/Abed Omar Qusini)
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