Untoldworld, if you notice the supporters of israel will continue to latch onto side details and avoid the continuing and unending situation and conditions of the palestinians because it is an unassailable point. They make it seem as if there were times when israel just sat there being unfairly attacked and avoid the issue that the palestinians have NEVER in the last 70 years had any periods of peace, free from molestation.

Its due the fact that they only get the american media side of the story with no context or historical accuracy to back it up. Just like when the FARC was fighting in columbia for equality, and we (the US) demanded they put down their weapons and join the government process if they wanted any recognition for validation. They agreed, and did this, and over the next 2 years 5000 ex farc members who became government officials were assassinated, but that never made it to the media, and columbia never was criticized for it, and the FARC was criticized again for taking up weapons and defending themselves in response to this.

Apparently groups who are against US policy only get recognition when they sit there and passively take bullets with no chance of success or progress, which is indeed what our own american government are grooming their own citizens to believe is the right way to protest as well, so the government can do as they like, with opposition forces having no practical or productive avenues for change.

I really hate to wade into this discussion, but I feel somethings need to be said in an objective and dispassionate matter even in the midst of a very passionate debate.

One thing that seems to keep being forgotten in the heat of the moment is that while Israel has blocked access to Gaza, they do not have total control over Gaza's borders. Gaza not only borders Israel but also borders Egypt. Why has Egypt not opened their border with Gaza to allow humanitarian aid?

On another note, where did all this talk about "proportionate response" come from? I'm not talking specifically about this conflict, though it could apply. War isn't about body counts. It's not about "you killed x number of us so we should be allowed to kill x number of you." War is about achieving goals with the fewest losses possible FOR YOUR SIDE. Yes there are rules to war. Non-combatants should be protected as much AS POSSIBLE and not specifically targeted. But there are other rules too. Rules that aren't talked about anymore because they are not very PC. When fighting a war, the parties involved have a responsibility to minimize the risks to their own personnel. When you assault a position that has non-combatants in it, there are some gruesome mathematics that have to be taken into account. How many of your own people are you willing to sacrifice to protect the non-combatants of the people who are trying to kill you? People forget that soldiers are people too. Their lives count as well.

I have to leave, but I'm not done with this point....

Be back later....

Yes, but this has never been about actions and responses. THAT is the point, and that is why there is so much debate. Many people think its about one side smacking the other and the other smacking back but that is so much BS.

Lets be clear here. Israel wants to kill and clear out ALL PALESTINIANS and take the whole of the country for themselves, THAT is what this is all about, and that is why it is so strongly protested. This is not about security, its not about safety. Israels actions are a direct attack on the palestinians in order to force them, through murder, theft, and desperate living conditions, to voluntarily flee the country so israel can step in and take it all claiming the palestinians willingly forfeited it, much the way the IRS, who has no right to confiscate property for nonpayment of taxes, shows up at your door with machine guns and violence, then claims you voluntarily forfieted your property for unpaid taxes when you flee the premesis.

Its about stated goals vs true goals, much in the same way the US is bombing iraq to submission in order to promote "freedom" and "democracy" when in fact we all know its about oil and middle eastern dominance. The zionist regime does not want peace with palestinians, it does not want treaty, or ceasefire....they want them all gone.

I think the underlying issue here is that a Western power (Israel) is prepared to stand up against the spread of Islamic militancy. If you polled most Britain`s and American`s post 9/11 and 7/7 (In London), you`d find a strong anti-Islamic feeling.There doesn`t seem to be anything positive coming from other Arab states regarding Hamas` anti-Israeli stance. In the same way Africa isn`t prepared to deal with Robert Mugabe`s regime. Israel to the West is the lesser of two evils and faced with living next door to Israel or Palestine, simply, I`d chose Israel....

Its funny that you can spin this to make it seem like islamists where coming out all over in attacks against the west, when indeed it seems the opposite to me. How many deaths are "muslim terrorists" responsible for now in the last 50 years? 10 thousand maybe? im just guessing. How many muslims have now died from american and foreign missiles? We're talking in the millions. Which muslim country has invaded a non muslim country in the past decade? and how many muslim countries have we been involved in coups, dictators, wars? Lets be realistic, if ANY side is engaged in a war, its the wests war on Islam.

Good questions, however, they dont make the islamists into terrorists or aggressors.

As a final point to my piece, i have to point out that it should say something to all of us that peculiar truth that there are hundreds of thousands of people around the world who are protesting the israeli treatment of the palestinians, and at the same time a large body of people protesting palestinian treatment of israelis is mysteriously absent. Even to the degree that renowned and famous jewish professors and authors condemn the actions of their own country, saying the palestinian situation reminds them of the ghettos and concentration camps in germany, and yet you find very few palestinian authors or authors of any origin with any competence criticizing the palestinian treatment of jews in any reasonable fashion.

And further it is also telling that Israel has broken more UN resolutions than ANY other nation, period.

Originally posted by pexx421
Its funny that you can spin this to make it seem like islamists where coming out all over in attacks against the west, when indeed it seems the opposite to me. How many deaths are "muslim terrorists" responsible for now in the last 50 years? 10 thousand maybe? im just guessing. How many muslims have now died from american and foreign missiles? We're talking in the millions. Which muslim country has invaded a non muslim country in the past decade? and how many muslim countries have we been involved in coups, dictators, wars? Lets be realistic, if ANY side is engaged in a war, its the wests war on Islam.

Maybe you need to think about your statement. In the last 10 year not many invasions which is true. And the US involvement in coups and gov'ts. Maybe you need to realize that is WHY things have been more stable in those govt's suddenly. Before our involvement there wasn't stability. It was constant war.

Originally posted by pexx421
Good questions, however, they dont make the islamists into terrorists or aggressors.

As a final point to my piece, i have to point out that it should say something to all of us that peculiar truth that there are hundreds of thousands of people around the world who are protesting the israeli treatment of the palestinians, and at the same time a large body of people protesting palestinian treatment of israelis is mysteriously absent. Even to the degree that renowned and famous jewish professors and authors condemn the actions of their own country, saying the palestinian situation reminds them of the ghettos and concentration camps in germany, and yet you find very few palestinian authors or authors of any origin with any competence criticizing the palestinian treatment of jews in any reasonable fashion.

And further it is also telling that Israel has broken more UN resolutions than ANY other nation, period.

Dear lord this may be the more illogical and misinformed statement I have read tonight. Think about it, Israeli's are free to criticize their gov't, Palestinians are Hamas are not. All dissension is suppressed. Period.

I like how you few a lack of criticism from a state only media means they haven't done anything wrong. You are absurd in the level of blinders you wear.


[edit on 10-1-2009 by johnny2127]

Over 3000 rockets and mortars fired into Israel by Hamas in 2008

.... killing 0.

Israel 14 day operations killing over 750 palestinians, wounding over 3.500.

They are the strongest. They should behave as such. It's like the 5th grader being ``bullied`` by 1st graders for a few weeks then later the 5th grader comes up to them and send them all to the hospital... who's the crazy guy here?

Their leaders and warmongering rabbis deserve to go to war crimes trials.

Israel should move to the USA. They already done it once, they can do it twice. Just use the US money to move them. The dozens of billions the US give Israel every year.

[edit on 10-1-2009 by Vitchilo]

Wrong on all counts johnny. First off, the middle east was much more peaceful before western imperial involvement, just as most of the world has been. Western powers went in to the ME and arbitrarily divided them into seperate nations and set them against each other, and historically we have continued to arm them and push them to war with each other, but i do understand that this is the US's version of "peace", and friendly relations.

As to palestinians not being able to speak out about their government..... where did you hear THAT dribble?! The palestinians are a free and democratic people and have just as much right to speak their thoughts as the israelis do! I know many and have never seen them afraid to voice their oppinion....what did you just make that up and put it on here dressed as fact?!
At any rate, i wasnt talking about people IN their state protesting, i was talking about the hundreds of thousands of protesters all over the world who see the horror the israelis inflict upon the palestinians. Where are the american crowds protesting how the palestinians treat the israelis? Where are the european crowds protesting how the palestinians treat the israelis?? they dont exist, however in BOTH countries you see many thousands protesting the concentration camp existence and bombardment of the palestinians.

FYI, if ANYONE is supressing info it is the ISRAELIS who have denied for months all foreign media to the area, WHICH IS A CRIME!! Its funny how you can call those suppressing the media the "open and free society" and those who allow the media to show everything the place where information is suppressed. Black is white, and up is down....good ole american point of view. Go watch fox news or something.

I just reread your post and its funny to me that you put forth american backed coups in countries as a stabilizing force! thats pretty funny, its kinda like saying we are bringing freedom and democracy to iraq by bombing them into the stone age. But then we have a history of this, the same way we brought salvation and civilization to the native americans and the love of christ to both them and the african american tribesmen.

As two pointed examples of your error, i will list here both afghanistan and iran. Prior to our arming and training of Osama bin Laden and his mujahideen (who went on to become the taliban) afghanistan was in fact one of the most civilized, democratic, and westernized of the middle eastern countries. However, we chose to use rebels there to draw russia into war (russia was invited in by the legitimate government to save them from the mujahideen), and the country has been destroyed and destitute since.

Then to iran, again one of the most democratic and westernized, and indeed free nations in the mid east....prior to us overthrowing their ruler and installing the Shah, of course. A dictator and despot so despised that all the people of iran rose up and overthrew him, installed a religious leader and underwent a religious revolution in backlash to the garbage they had seen westernism inflict upon them, and which brings us to the situation we have today. Then we try to use the enriched uranium that were helping them to develop under the Shah, as an excuse to need to attack them now.

Not to mention that we helped put saddam into power, and kept arming him and pushing him to war on Iran, then decide later that we dont like him and destroy his country as well.

I guess THIS is the peace you speak of that we bring to the middle east.

Originally posted by pexx421
Wrong on all counts johnny. First off, the middle east was much more peaceful before western imperial involvement, just as most of the world has been. Western powers went in to the ME and arbitrarily divided them into seperate nations and set them against each other, and historically we have continued to arm them and push them to war with each other, but i do understand that this is the US's version of "peace", and friendly relations.

As to palestinians not being able to speak out about their government..... where did you hear THAT dribble?! The palestinians are a free and democratic people and have just as much right to speak their thoughts as the israelis do! I know many and have never seen them afraid to voice their oppinion....what did you just make that up and put it on here dressed as fact?!
At any rate, i wasnt talking about people IN their state protesting, i was talking about the hundreds of thousands of protesters all over the world who see the horror the israelis inflict upon the palestinians. Where are the american crowds protesting how the palestinians treat the israelis? Where are the european crowds protesting how the palestinians treat the israelis?? they dont exist, however in BOTH countries you see many thousands protesting the concentration camp existence and bombardment of the palestinians.

FYI, if ANYONE is supressing info it is the ISRAELIS who have denied for months all foreign media to the area, WHICH IS A CRIME!! Its funny how you can call those suppressing the media the "open and free society" and those who allow the media to show everything the place where information is suppressed. Black is white, and up is down....good ole american point of view. Go watch fox news or something.

Such an absurd statement. The ME has never been a peaceful place. Ever. Before the west even existed as it is now, the middle east was tearing itself apart. Its the least peaceful region in the world, and has been for thousands of years. Anything else you want to blame the west for? Can't stand the blame America first haters out there

Ah, so i see you respond to my historical based statements with opinion, derision, and name calling, and nothing to back up any of your points or disprove any of mine. How typical a stance for those with no legs to stand on, clinging to their beliefs only through the power of faith and delusion.