Over 3000 rockets and mortars fired into Israel by Hamas in 2008

reply to post by FredT


Ok, fair enough.

Thanks for the clarification.

I just took exception to the initial lie, wasn't particularly bothered after that.
I could say, "Israel have never killed anyone, but HAMAS killed dozens in some attacks"

See it's hard to get over the initial BS.

I'm not defending Israel or anything like that,(in fact I'm sure my position is clear from my posts in the other conflict threads) just don't like to see lies posted from either side... It doesn't help anyone.



[edit on 8/1/09 by blupblup]

Got a nephew in Israel right now and he knows they claim there is a war but is amazed he hasn't seen or heard anything.

Does anyone find this a little odd? And he is moving around everywhere even Gaza!

Something is up!

reply to post by blupblup


This is not a rhetorical question I just want to know what people think. For the sake of the question, lets say that Israel has killed 5 times as many palestinian citizens as Hamas has killed of Israeli's. If Hamas is purposefully targeting Israeli citizens, while Israel is targeting Hamas militants that are staging in civilian areas, does that effect your opinions on the death count on each side? In other words, does intention of targets make any difference?

Originally posted by scrubsnstuffkim
IWhy is everyone forgetting that HAMAS is a terrorist organization??????? The same ones that promote killing in the name of ALLAH..... the same ones that will gladly strap on bombs to kill innocent civilians and themselves just to be martyrs????

one side has rocks the other side has guns,tanks,nukes,etc.. who won that fight in the bible? the side with the rocks right? in this case israel has the guns so to me that means jews are not "gods chosen people". israel is killing innocents at this moment.... usa wants to back up israel what if the leaders in israel at this moment are evil? then what? world war 3? i guess so... allah means god for you americans/christians that dont know

[edit on 9-1-2009 by new world disorder]

People act like its an issue of both sides occasionally indulging in murder of the other, but thats not it at all. AT ALL TIMES, no matter whether rockets are being fired or not, the israeli occupation causes the death of palestinians and destruction of palestinian lives due to sanctions, embargos, and blockades. So while the israeli's may have peace between the ineffectual homemade rocket attacks of the palestinians, the palestinians are NEVER free from the death and destruction that results from israeli occupation. When no bombs are going off, the israeli's are free to live a semi normal life, eat food, have electricity, go to work etc, ie a life relatively free from the influence and control of palestinians.
The palestinians, on the other hand, during ceasefires get to continue on their way to starvation, in a home with no electricity, watching their friends and family waste away and die as a result of israeli action.

Ceasefire or not, the palestinians live in, and have suffered under for years, israeli blockade of food, medicine, energy, etc, and though you may not know it, THESE ARE ACTS OF WAR!! Embargo's ARE acts of war. So the truth is that ceasefire means that israel can still wage war against palestine, but the palestinians are just supposed to sit there and take it apparently.

The only people who could truly hold to such a notion are people who are completely ignorant of the situations the palestinians live under, situations completely inflicted by the israelis.....most likely people who get all their news on this subject from the MSM.....so perhaps they are not to blame for their ignorance, however, if all you read is one side of the story, and that side is israels, then please dont make a statement as if you are some sort of educated authority. If you are inundated with the garbage media's 100 israel side stories, then read at least 50 palestinian side stories before you make a judgement, and until then dont open your mouth to spread your ignorance.

And to the person who said "dont forget, hammas is a TERRORIST ORGANISATION" I hope you realise that you just said, in effect, Dont forget that hammas is an organisation our government does not approve of, after all, thats all the term "terrorist" means now. Freedom fighters are warriors our government approves of, that support american corporate and diplomatic agenda, and terrorists are everyone else with a gun.

Its funny that a man with a bomb on his chest that may kill 20 people is a "terrorist" but a man in a jet, with a bomb that can kill thousands with no risk to himself is a "public servant", and a defender of freedom and peace.

reply to post by new world disorder


Most delusional post yet on this.

reply to post by pexx421


Very sad that you few think this way. Nearly everyone can feel bad or sympathize with the plight of Palestinians. But to actually defend the actions of Hamas, that for decades has had suicide bombers purposely kill innocent men women and children, is inexcusable. Hamas wants to kill Jews all over the world, that is terrorism. Any organization that purposefully targets innocent people is wrong, whether that is Hamas, Israel, the USA or any other option.

You are so sadly wrong to simply call them freedom fighters it borders on delusional. Think about it, they kill their own citizens and innocents on purpose for their purposes. Oh and by the way, go read their charter, peace isn't even an option for Hamas. Their stated purpose is the destruction of Israel, and the elimination of Jews everywhere. This statement is from the Hamas charter, article 15:

"I indeed wish to go to war for the sake of Allah! I will assault and kill, assault and kill, assault and kill!"

That is terrorism my sadly delusional friend......

[edit on 9-1-2009 by johnny2127]

reply to post by johnny2127


Yes definitely... but that is for "arguments sake".... as what you described is NOT happening, then i see no point in your question?
Not being rude.... just saying.

Apparently when we invaded Iraq, (we= the coalition) we targeted only military installations and weapons factories.... but we all know that wasn't true.


As i have said, i am not on any side... I am judging solely on this conflict and from what i have seen this time... not the other conflicts or the entire history of why the conflict is happening

[edit on 9/1/09 by blupblup]

Originally posted by Wehali
In all these decades, Hamas caused less than 20 Israeli deaths..

I mean It's closer to 24 in 8 years..... in ALL the decades 20 deaths???
THAT is what i took exception to.



[edit on 9/1/09 by blupblup]

Originally posted by intrepid
reply to post by blupblup

 

I don't know where that came from

That is why i was lost.
Not sure where "what" came from?

[edit on 9/1/09 by blupblup]

reply to post by blupblup


As Mark Twain popularized, "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

reply to post by johnny2127



True, also... some other quotes.


"History is the version of past events that people have decided to agree upon."
-Napoleon Bonaparte




"History is a guide to navigation in perilous times. History is who we are and why we are the way we are."

-David C. McCullough

reply to post by blupblup


A few more of my favorites:

"Government is not reason; it is not eloquent; it is force. Like fire, it is a dangerous servant and a fearful master." --George Washington

"Insanity in individuals is something rare - but in groups, parties, nations and epochs, it is the rule." -Friedrich Nietzsche

"The study of history, while it does not endow with prophecy, may indicate lines of probability." - John Steinbeck

Originally posted by intrepid
Who do you think has the larger share of the pie now?

It depends on what you use to cut the pie with-
# of dead or # of attempts at murder.

If the knife we use to cut the pie goes along the lines of number of dead - then Israel is the bigger perp. If the knife we use to cut the pie goes along the lines of number of times of attempted mass murder - then the 'palestinians' are the bigger perps.

It's a matter of perspective.

Originally posted by FredT
How many times int he past has this level of over-reaction worked for Israel?.............

Taking all necessary steps to prevent your people from daily having to face mass murder at the hands of a suicide bomber or a terrorist rocket is not 'over-reaction'. And considering how patient Israel has been up to this time - withholding military involvement - the word 'over-reaction' is definately out of place.

reply to post by FlyersFan


I would add that targets of the attacks are an important factor as well. Hamas purposefully targets innocents. While the innocent Israel kills are collateral damage. Not defending Israel on this, just saying that the intended targets are an important factor as well.

Well first of all,israel has been occupying land in gaza for a LONG time,thats illegal.Israel controls gaza's borders,airspace and coast,thats illegal.Hamas whether you like them or not were elected fair and square,they were elected for the reasons ive just mentioned,radicals have a better chance of gaining power if the populace is angry,desperate and when someone comes along to say they will fight against the aggressors who have inflicted this pain upon them,the inevitable happens.Hamas are the result of Israels actions against the palestinian people.Killing civilians cannot be justified,but cause and effect are important to remember.

And yes hamas are intentionally targeting civilians which is wrong and rephrensible.But lets remember its the only option they have.The rockets cannot reach military bases only israeli towns in the south,they are crude and not precise by anymeans.Therefore thats why they do this.Again cant be justified,but thats the facts.

[edit on 9-1-2009 by Solomons]

By Meron Rappaport

"What we did was insane and monstrous, we covered entire towns in cluster bombs," the head of an IDF rocket unit in Lebanon said regarding the use of cluster bombs and phosphorous shells during the war.

Quoting his battalion commander, the rocket unit head stated that the IDF fired around 1,800 cluster bombs, containing over 1.2 million cluster bomblets.

In addition, soldiers in IDF artillery units testified that the army used phosphorous shells during the war, widely forbidden by international law. According to their claims, the vast majority of said explosive ordinance was fired in the final 10 days of the war.
www.commondreams.org...

The little resistance that the arabs are giving in the middle east gets totaly dwarfed by the sheer amount of force commited by the israelies.

Originally posted by Solomons
Well first of all,israel has been occupying land in gaza for a LONG time,thats illegal.Israel controls gaza's borders,airspace and coast,thats illegal.Hamas whether you like them or not were elected fair and square,they were elected for the reasons ive just mentioned,radicals have a better chance of gaining power if the populace is angry,desperate and when someone comes along to say they will fight against the aggressors who have inflicted this pain upon them,the inevitable happens.Hamas are the result of Israels actions against the palestinian people.Killing civilians cannot be justified,but cause and effect are important to remember.

Why is it illegal? There has never been a Palestinian state. The land was Syria's and Jordan's. And what wasn't given to them was won in the war. War of course is how every nation acquires the majority of its land. I am wondering how they land Israel has now was illegally obtained when Palestine was never a state, and the land they hand was obtained the same way as other nations.

By the way, the simple philosophical thought process invalidates your point. Hamas may have been created in reaction to Israel, but that in no way makes them targeting innocent kids or hiding their military in civilian areas moral. If you think Israel is wrong or evil or whatever, thats fine. But it doesn't excuse immoral or evil acts on the part of Hamas

Originally posted by johnny2127
reply to post by FlyersFan

 

I would add that targets of the attacks are an important factor as well. Hamas purposefully targets innocents. While the innocent Israel kills are collateral damage. Not defending Israel on this, just saying that the intended targets are an important factor as well.

Off course you target innocent civilians when you drop so many heavy bombs on urban places.
Did you see the clouds some of these bombs give of in gaza, they span multiply city blocks.
That is just as much an act of murder.