Over 3000 rockets and mortars fired into Israel by Hamas in 2008

Since 1920-2008 (the last 88 years) only 3692 Israelis have been killed by Palestinians.

In the last 2 weeks 1000 Palestinians have been killed.

I think that speaks for itself really.

Originally posted by Obliterated
Since 1920-2008 (the last 88 years) only 3692 Israelis have been killed by Palestinians.

In the last 2 weeks 1000 Palestinians have been killed.

I think that speaks for itself really.

Do you suggest that both sides should have equal number of casualties to make it fair??
As bad as it may sound its a war there, and the more advanced nation will either win and/or have less casualties.
Thats how common sense of war works.

That may be a truth, but it reflects another truth that i have noticed historically. And that truth is that you can almost always tell which side is the aggressor, or the oppressor, and which side is the victim, by the overwhelming casualties on the side of the victim. This was the case in WWII, this was the case in vietnam, in laos, cambodia, philipine islands, it generally goes around.... you can see it today as well in Iraq, 4000 american casualties, 1.2 million iraqi, in afghanistan, and naturally in israel/palestine. I think it extends from the natural logic that no one is truly silly enough to actually "attack" a massively stronger force, so generally weaker countries can usually be seen to be defending themselves, though in todays world we make "self defense" into "terrorism", just as we make "dropping bombs" into "peacekeeping activities", and "acts of war" have become "negotiations". I imagine this is a wonderful tradition kept through time since our "department of war" became the "department of defense". Good is bad, and left is right. Rejoice americans, you have a truly dizzying intellect, and a wonderful propaganda party to help you sleep at night.

Originally posted by pexx421
And that truth is that you can almost always tell which side is the aggressor, or the oppressor, and which side is the victim, by the overwhelming casualties on the side of the victim.

Hope you're kidding : that's plain logical fallacy. The side that loses any war IS DEFINED as the one who's got the most casualties.

Really? despite the fact that vietnam lost between 2-4 million, yet won their war? Despite the fact that the russians alone lost over 9 million to the germans yet we won that war as well? No, i think you need to rethink your statement. Winning or losing has nothing to do with the number of casualties, it has to do with who is successful in their goals and objectives. My point stands, that almost exclusively, war is about one group trying to claim power and control over another, and you can usually sort through the propaganda to tell which is which, as i said, by looking at the overwhelming imbalance of casualties on one side. Look at it historically, i have come to this conclusion through much reading and research, not looking for it, but it came as sort of an epiphany.

Originally posted by pexx421
Ah, so i see you respond to my historical based statements with opinion, derision, and name calling, and nothing to back up any of your points or disprove any of mine. How typical a stance for those with no legs to stand on, clinging to their beliefs only through the power of faith and delusion.

I apologize if I came across like that.

It just gets very frustrating when people cannot admit a single bit of fault on the part of Hamas. In my opinion all sides bear blame, but I think Hamas bears the majority of it. Not being able to even admit that it is wrong for hamas to purposefully target children is baffling. If you believe Israel does the same thing, that is your right, but I am sure you believe that is wrong of Israel. Same should true of Hamas

its that i dont believe that hamas is targeting children, no matter what some news report says. If they are, where are all the child casualties of palestinian attacks?? I see none. I see many pictures of children blown apart by israeli bombs, many many. I see pictures of disembodied childrens heads, limbs, torsos, all the time, so i know israel is killing many many children. However, i have yet to see a single picture of a child killed by hamas....not that i dont believe that they may exist....there may be 3 or 4...but certainly not the hundreds dead from american bombs used by zionists. If they are truly targetting children there would be many many more....so I find it repulsive for people to keep trumpeting this propaganda with no evidence to back it up. Its similar to if people were running around yelling "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" and all one has to do is look up to see it is not true, that that person who looks up is rediculed for not believing the press.

reply to post by YuriG

Do you suggest that both sides should have equal number of casualties to make it fair??
As bad as it may sound its a war there, and the more advanced nation will either win and/or have less casualties.
Thats how common sense of war works.

The thread title is ... "Over 3000 rockets and mortars fired into Israel by Hamas in 2008" As if to say that Hamas is the evil aggressor. Yet there is nothing about how many rockets have been fired from Israel. A little 1 sided?

My point is, that number fired by Israel would exceed it by a very large number considering that so far, almost 1000 Palestinians have been killed and almost 4000 are injured. While Israels death toll is at 13 with 62 injuries. That's not war, it's criminal. The Palestinians aren't a threat, they're an easy target. Especially when you consider that there is only a small population of them left. They're almost extinct!

Over the past 100 years they've gone from being over 80% of the population to now under 20% of the population. I guess if it's done gradually, maybe no one will notice the genocide or ethnic cleansing?

Originally posted by pexx421
its that i dont believe that hamas is targeting children, no matter what some news report says. If they are, where are all the child casualties of palestinian attacks?? I see none. I see many pictures of children blown apart by israeli bombs, many many. I see pictures of disembodied childrens heads, limbs, torsos, all the time, so i know israel is killing many many children. However, i have yet to see a single picture of a child killed by hamas....not that i dont believe that they may exist....there may be 3 or 4...but certainly not the hundreds dead from american bombs used by zionists. If they are truly targetting children there would be many many more....so I find it repulsive for people to keep trumpeting this propaganda with no evidence to back it up. Its similar to if people were running around yelling "the sky is falling, the sky is falling" and all one has to do is look up to see it is not true, that that person who looks up is rediculed for not believing the press.

So use some logic here...... they state their intention to kill Jewish children all over the world, and the blockade keeps Hamas militants from getting out of Palestine. And keep in mind, even Egypt doesn't let them through either. In other words, thank God for the blockade.

The latest statement about killing Jewish children all over the world came from one of the original founders of Hamas, not some random peon. If you are not capable to thinking that it is possible for Hamas to be capable of such things, you should consider why. Is there something that prevents independent thinking on this issue? You can be pro-palestinian people and still criticize Hamas.

Its not that i think they are not capable of it. I think your capable of it. I think im capable of it. All in the right circiumstance. However, i dont see any evidence of this actually having occurred, and for israel to use things like "what they might do in the future" as a reason to be committing those same atrocities against them now, is quite ludicrous.
Further i dont know that my thinking is not independent. I am quite at odds with most of my friends who support israel. However, I have the position of having read the western media, the israeli side, AND the palestinian side, whereas most of my friends, like most americans, only get the western media portrayal. To me, that seems to give me an advantage of information upon which to make my deductions, while my friends are rather led by the nose.

This broader base of knowledge also led me to predict the economic collapse going on now a year and a half ago, where i was soundly rediculed, but which was borne out. It also led me to the strong opinion from the beginning that the war in iraq had nothing to do with freedom, there were no WMD's, and it would be massively expensive and lengthy, and AGAIN i was ridiculed. So, i would venture to say that my judgement (based off of reading multiple news sources, books, articles, not off of any personal superiority or other) has been shown to be a bit more aligned with truth than many of those i debate with.

To add, i have seen too many occurances of when the media grossly mistranslates something someone said to make it an excuse for aggression and ostracism. This is one of those cases. He never stated he would go all over trying to kill israeli children, that is a mistranslation. He DID state, that the murder of palestinian children VALIDATES the murder of israeli children, which is distinctly different, but is not a statement of intent, but rather a statement of moral equivocation. Still a horrible thing to say, as nothing validates the murder of a single innocent, but humans are certainly not about to allow something like innocente death to stand in their way at this point of history.

Interesting corralary to make, our own nation equivocates with our childrens lives as well. Our medical system knows that each drug, each vaccine, etc is going to cause a certain number of deaths as well as disabilities, etc, however they still force them on many citing it for the common good. And most of them have not been proven to have any practical effect at all, such as the Flu vaccine, all of which still have mercury (except pediatric dose) and which according to the CDC only provide between 8-16% immunity. Yay.

Originally posted by pexx421
Its not that i think they are not capable of it. I think your capable of it. I think im capable of it. All in the right circiumstance. However, i dont see any evidence of this actually having occurred, and for israel to use things like "what they might do in the future" as a reason to be committing those same atrocities against them now, is quite ludicrous.
Further i dont know that my thinking is not independent. I am quite at odds with most of my friends who support israel. However, I have the position of having read the western media, the israeli side, AND the palestinian side, whereas most of my friends, like most americans, only get the western media portrayal. To me, that seems to give me an advantage of information upon which to make my deductions, while my friends are rather led by the nose.

This broader base of knowledge also led me to predict the economic collapse going on now a year and a half ago, where i was soundly rediculed, but which was borne out. It also led me to the strong opinion from the beginning that the war in iraq had nothing to do with freedom, there were no WMD's, and it would be massively expensive and lengthy, and AGAIN i was ridiculed. So, i would venture to say that my judgement (based off of reading multiple news sources, books, articles, not off of any personal superiority or other) has been shown to be a bit more aligned with truth than many of those i debate with.

Economic collapse had started over a year and a half ago. But good job recognizing it. Most couldn't bring themselves to admit the economy was collapsing. Much as most cant admit that its going to get a lot worse actually. You agree?

Yes, i am picturing the collapse of the american dollar when we renege on our national debt sometime in the near future, combined with rising chinese yen is going to make the prices of our normal goods (imports) skyrocket. Hard times ahead for all middle and lower class americans, and a government which makes inneffectual band aid stimulus packages that just push more money from the poor and middle class to the banks and business owners.

reply to post by pexx421


I think it'll come from either us not paying our debt, but more likely I think it'll truly start when you notice large retailers in the US going under, and that will be the first sign things are going out of control. Then the big thing will either be when China, Japan and any of our large debt buyers stop buying or drastically cut back. This could come from rating cuts on the US debt or one unloading US dollars in favor of a basket of currencies or metals. From there its pretty much an implosion.

It seems to me that we are missing the point of this argument. The simple fact is that Hamas hates Jews. The Hamas do not want peace, they want destruction of the Jews. The Hamas do not care about their casualties like the rest of the world does. It seems interesting to me that Hamas has started a fight with Israel and the World seems to think that its ok to have 3000 or more rockets fired into the yards, homes, business of Israelis, but that its not ok for the people of Israel to defend and protect their own country. If your neighbor continued to fire gun shots into your yard and home, knowing that you have children, would you not try to stop the attacks on your home? or would you just sit by and just hope that maybe one of the shots fired will not kill you or your children. That does sound silly doesn't it. Let Israel defend herself. Sometimes offense is the best defense. Just remember this one last note, all Hamas had to do was stop firing rockets into Israel from 2006 to December 2008 and the the war would have never started.