Uh Oh..... Monetary Flat Spin

What I find fascinating is how the stock market keeps rising and gold is up one day and down the next.

I guess the really big investors are waiting for the brown blowback before they start panicking.

Originally posted by anachryon

Math does not lie. It's that simple. Math doesn't lie.

I'm not talking about standard, run of the mill deflation, dude. I'm talking deflationary spiral. I'm not going to buy dollars when clues are popping up left and right that the fiat currency stands a chance of implosion.

Look beyond your golden glasses. If this continues, it doesn't matter how many dollars an oz of AU will be worth. If M doesn't turn back above 1 real soon...or, god forbid, if it continues to drop, if it gets much closer to zero, you won't be denominating gold in dollars because dollars will not exist.

This is much bigger than freaking gold. It's fine to stock up on physical. Do that. Just study a little beyond the goldbug chest-thumping.

By the way, you do realize that M and M1 are completely different things, right?

No need to get snippy my glasses are silver not gold Yes I do understand the difference between M, M1, M2, and M3. Listen to me the dollar is not going to exist. We agree on this. I think peeps on ATS have been saying that for awhile now. If you have a few moments read this article. This is a planned explosion which is why Im telling you get out of dollars.

www.silverbearcafe.com...

Originally posted by tjeffersonsghost
No need to get snippy my glasses are silver not gold

Yes I do understand the difference between M, M1, M2, and M3. Listen to me the dollar is not going to exist. We agree on this.

Isn't important to understand WHY we're looking at a pretty big event in re: the fiat currency?

The monetary supply is DECREASING for each dollar they print into it. This is in no way inflationary.

Inflation may well guarantee PMs go up in price. I understand why you want this to be inflationary. Until about two months ago I viewed the deleveraging, printing, and hoarding as inflationary, but, like I said, math doesn't lie. I was wrong.

Buy whatever PMs you're into in physical if you're going that route. Take physical possession of the metals, have them in your hands. That's all I can say about that. We're pretty much in uncharted territory here, and it's hard to say whether PMs will be valuable in a worst case scenario...but if you want 'em, make sure you actually have 'em!

reply to post by anachryon


Dont worry my physical is in hand and Im going to try and time everything to where I sell at the right time to buy enough food and ammo for one year. Ill be on a farm in the middle of nowhere and ready. Im taking this very serious trust me. You cant eat gold and silver I understand that and end game I wont have much Pms Ill have food, ammo, a paid off car or two and a farm in the middle of nowhere.

I can't help but think that while everyone is saying BUY GOLD and that IT WILL NEVER GO DOWN IN VALUE that isn't really true, in fact it almost seems like a set up.

Most of the big governments and people in the know appear to have sold all their gold, most likely this is because they desperately needed the money because they're going broke however it could be a conspiracy! Those of you that follow science will know that about ten years ago we made the first artificially created gold -thats right, for the first time in history we completed the alchemists dream we turned a base metal into gold!

Who's to say that they haven't created a more economical way of creating gold by now, maybe they can almost mass produce it by now? maybe by 2025 all electronics will be done using 100% pure machine made gold?

This may sound like crazy sci-fi but then again so does the fact that i sharpen my chisels on a diamond encrusted plate of carbon steel! We've been making diamonds for ages now, the only reason the price hasn't dropped out of the market is because factory pressed diamonds are identifiable because they're perfect (and a giant dutch conspiracy but thats another thread), this would not be the case with gold -by melting it down and adding flux or simply by mixing it with lower quality gold it would be indistinguishable from gold removed from the ground.

certainly by the year 2100 gold will not be worth anywhere near $800, how could it be?

Originally posted by NatureBoy
I can't help but think that while everyone is saying BUY GOLD and that IT WILL NEVER GO DOWN IN VALUE that isn't really true, in fact it almost seems like a set up.

It is a set up, but that's not an argument worthwhile to have at this point. The same way it's pointless to try and convince someone to change their political beliefs, it's pointless to try and rationally discuss PMs with a PM fiend.

Since you can't eat or drink Pms IMHO I would place more importance on acquiring those goods first,then a weapon to keep it when the SHTF.

In all sincerity folks, I've been listening to this kvetching about Gold since I began investing in it...6yrs now.

The fact is that today, Gold recorded it's 7th consecutive higher yearly close. That's called a trend

GLITNYATS

Originally posted by OBE1
In all sincerity folks, I've been listening to this kvetching about Gold since I began investing in it...6yrs now.

The fact is that today, Gold recorded it's 7th consecutive higher yearly close. That's called a trend

GLITNYATS

Happy News Years my friend and did ya look at silver today good day very nice day....I just hope the dollar dont collapse.......

Originally posted by anachryon
Math does not lie. It's that simple. Math doesn't lie.

math never applied to people who can invent money when- and however they choose, because in truth, noone has any oversight, the banksters are running the show on autopilot until CFIT*.

so, let's say they invent another 100bn $$$ this week and only 954 mn $$$ are actually available after that, it's still an increase in the money supply. the effect is cumulative, fine, so they'll have to invent more than 1bn next week and even more after that, but seeing as it's just random numbers somewhere in computer memory which can be altered at will, all the math says is that numbers in the books will have to increase exponentially.

if all parts of the monetary system were rooted in the material world you could calculate an estimated time of collapse. it's all make-believe, though, and therefore, collapse will occur once people no longer believe a single word from banks, gov'ts and corp's and act accordingly.

what will happen then is everybody's guess, martial law, war, including, pandemic or fabrications thereof are all on the table, because if someone is willing to go this far for psyschopathic schemes of control, they won't stop at anything. their own demise excluded of course.


* CFIT = Controlled Flight into Terrain, ie when you steer a fully controllable airplane into the ground, because you didn't know any better - or are going kamikaze for whatever reason.

Originally posted by NatureBoy
I can't help but think that while everyone is saying BUY GOLD and that IT WILL NEVER GO DOWN IN VALUE that isn't really true, in fact it almost seems like a set up.

Most of the big governments and people in the know appear to have sold all their gold, most likely this is because they desperately needed the money because they're going broke however it could be a conspiracy! Those of you that follow science will know that about ten years ago we made the first artificially created gold -thats right, for the first time in history we completed the alchemists dream we turned a base metal into gold!

The only way gold can be made from another element is in a particle accelerator. It has been done, but you are talking about atoms worth of gold being created at a huge cost of energy. It's just not worth the cost, not even close.
There is probably not going to be some large new source of gold, but the technology of printing money is well understood. The conspiracy is talking place right in front of us, makes the MSM daily, and no one seems to care.


.

reply to post by morefiber


indeed, a big old particle accelerator was used to make the tiny amount of gold they told us about as proof on concept - who's to say that someone with a LOT of money tied up in the system hasn't got an easier way of making it by now? if not then how long till they find one?

It took a computer larger than my house to prove that it was possible to use a machine to solve maths problems, it didn't take long after the concept was understood to quickly shrink the process so that i now have over a billion times more computational power in a device which easily fits into my rucksack.

The amount of money around the world being fed into secret R&D work around the world is staggering, that before you add the secret secret money from scams like Iran-Contra - wouldn't the ability to create gold be a very powerful weapon? I would certainly think that if china, america or europe developed the tech first and in secret they would have a lot of influence over the other economic powers -maybe even crushing their entire economy.

Maybe they have a nuclear power gold factory pumping out a few thousand kg a day already, if not then how long do you think it will be? like i said before, do you really think that we still won't be able to make cheap gold at the end of this century?

reply to post by tjeffersonsghost

Wishing you a comfortable 09 as well TJG.

Here's a Jim Rogers interview out today: Bloomberg; First Word 2009. I continue to observe how Rogers successfully understates his position in precious metals. Understandably, a preeminent commodities fund manager would be sensitive to being cast as a wild-eyed, sweaty-palmed Goldbug. With this in mind...behold what he pulls from his pocket around min 9:00 of this 19min interview

Rogers says he's looking to short the long-bond (he, and a few million bond speculators, I think). Notable move yesterday...30yr declined to fill the gap left in mid Dec...almost complete. Still too early to call "crash", but THIS sure looks like a top to me (note the bearish MACD cross).

This morning Monte Guild underscored a point I have been trying to convey in a few posts recently. Moving into 09, we have an unprecedented amount of fund-raising to do. To make a few trillion in treasuries attractive, our esteemed monetary authorities have but two options: Raise interest rates (obviously not gonna happen)...or kill the dollar (now in progress). This would be the strongest fundamental argument in favor of precious metals investment during this upcoming phase of the ongoing bull market. I know you're partial to Silver TJG...the little sister always comes along for the ride. To what degree this time? Watch the Gold:Silver ratio. The slowdown in base-metals production is leading to slashed exploration budgets, hard to obtain funding, project abandonment, and mine closures. Since the majority of Silver is mined as a base-metal byproduct...this is extremely bullish for Silver prices from the supply-side.

GL

Edit: Trying to repair Bloomberg link...sorry
Edit: Link seems to be working now.


[edit on 1-1-2009 by OBE1]

From iTulip: 2008 review in pictures and 2009 forecast

Another informative yet amusing ensemble by Eric Janzen. I recommend clicking the text links for a review of previous EJ offerings. If nothing else, it provides an opportunity to discover why itulip staffers have been banned from posting on KD's MarketTicker Forums.

LOOK MA! Intelligent, well researched, incredibly prescient economic commentary....without the gratuitous (if trendy) profanity!

NAW...it's just those darn Ka-Poom theory inflationists conspiring to decieve the world

The velocity of money is clearly showing INCREASING deflationary forces going forward in the economy via a weaker money multiplier which will be battled by an increase in the money supply "fed printing". Watch how much of the fed printing goes to the ELITE's...banks, corporations,bonuses vs. mainstreet......that's the real transfer of wealth

ALSO we don't need to be in a INFLATIONARY Enviornment for PM's to SOAR! what's that you say?

Lets look at OIL in the past year.........a relatively small market was flooded with money by investors who were willing to take risk (some call them speculators) but it's semantics.........ok now LOOK at the SIZE of the U.S BOND MARKET = appox 30 trillion.... it's bigger than the stock market and guess what the total market for all the mined gold in the world is 3 trillion ! Say 10%of bond money goes into gold market do the math!

lots of the fed's money printing may go to purchasing bond's , just like alot of the TARP funds are being used by BANKS to buy gov't bonds.....the former is a way to protect the fiat money system because GUESS WHAT.......when nervous investors take there money out of the bond market where will they go...........equity markets???? Not for long with earnings dissapointments continuing for longer than the always over optomistic MSM cheerleaders believing and getting those who WANT to see the market go back up believe! The fed will invest in the bond's to keep there prices from falling too fast ( which would = getting spooked which = lost confidence in there paper money game) as well as keeping interest rates on gov't debt low............so I DON'T see a way that much of this monetary inflation carry's over to wages or consumers or retailers any time soon.

the stage MAYBE set for a sizeable amount of $$ flowing out of bonds and into GOLD and SILVER (sure some will flow into equity's) but if 5% to 10% of money invested in bonds went into gold the gold market could SOAR and banks like JP morgan may use Gold derivatives to try and keep the gold price from jumping and tempering a stampede into gold (which would leads the impression of a collapse of confidence in the paper money game).....it should be a battle. but i wanted to make a point that should a small % of investors decide to get out of bonds and (of any gov't )50 triillion market) into gold the gold price will react exponentially ........"sort of" like the oil markets did.........although these investors will not have the luxury of buying on low margin / high leverage like some of the hedgies did with oil earlier b4 there clients withdrew funds and made them sell sell sell.

p.s ticker forum and i tulip are to married to there forum board's owner/ "god's" ideology's and theory's IMO

[edit on 2-1-2009 by cpdaman]

Originally posted by cpdaman
although these investors will not have the luxury of buying on low margin / high leverage like some of the hedgies did with oil

Margin requirements:

COMEX Gold (100oz futures)

Non-Member Speculative Initial - $4,302

Non-Member Speculative Maintenance - $5,808

Clearing Member/Member/Hedger Initial and Maintenance - $4,302

****

NYMEX Oil (light Sweet Crude)

Non-Member Customer Initial - $9,113

Member Customer Initial - $7,425

Clearing Member and Customer Maintenance - $6,750

FYI

Long ago predicted by the Gold community, a monstrous ball of liquidity is soon to be unleashed upon an unsuspecting planet. If I were still in equities, I might use the Obama head-fake to beat a speedy exit. By March, or sooner, the bond market could begin to wobble...the dollar will be sacrificed in a balancing-act requiring the skills of the Fabulous Flying Walenta Family. There will be no practical means of draining this avalanche of liquidity...and no time to-boot.

Chicago Fed Says Take Interest Rates "Below Zero" and Monetize Debt to Devalue Dollar

Originally posted by OBE1
Chicago Fed Says Take Interest Rates "Below Zero" and Monetize Debt to Devalue Dollar

If you got it, spend it.

reply to post by OBE1


Wow that is powerful stuff my man. These guys really are hell bent on killing our dollar arent they? Wow I just dont even know what to say.

Originally posted by In nothing we trust
If you got it, spend it.

If you spend it, spend it wisely


reply to post by mybigunit

Apologize for the melo-drama MBU, but my initial reaction was similar to your own.

Jesse says:

The boundary constraint on the Fed in a purely fiat regime is the value of the US dollar and the Treasury debt. Greenspan's Fed managed to inflate its way out of the tech crash of 2000-2 with bubbles in equities and housing prices, a significant dollar devaluation, but an amazingly resilient bond thanks to official buying by a few foreign central banks.

The 'official' bond buying was primarily supported by the Bank of Japan; 2003 - 04. A sweetheart agreement between the BOJ, the US Treasury, and the Greenspan Fed.

From 1989 to 2003, the Japanese economy was suffering from a long deflationary period. On June 2003, over a 15 month period, the Japanese central bank intervened in the YEN/USD currency markets by creating over 35 trillion Yen of currency ("printing" money). This currency was then used to buy 320 billion US dollars, which were in turn invested into US treasuries. This increased the supply of yen, weakening the yen against the dollar, improving exports and lifting Japan out of a deflationary period. At the same time, the US was lifted out of 2001-2003 recession by being able to keeping interest rates low despite, growing trade and government deficits. - Wiki
Full Text

The BOJ is busy increasing purchases of it's own sovereign debt....the US Fed to follow suit. Essentially, that leaves China and the ME to soak-up two Trillion in US Treasuries. Good luck with that.

The new deal: Official proposing that Japan write-off it's 976BB in US treasury holdings...he projects that the debt will be unserviceable anyway and support the US economy (meaning get the US consumer buying Japanese goods again) by investing in O'Bama fiscal-stim projects.

Is there another rabbit in the hat? Hope so.