Holiday Skirmish: nyk537 vs Skyfloating: Christmas As Hanukah?

page: 1
10

log in

join

posted on Dec, 12 2008 @ 10:54 AM
link   
The topic for this debate is “There Should Be Twelve Days Of Christmas.”

nyk537 will be arguing the pro position and will open the debate.
Skyfloating will argue the con position.

Each debater will have one opening statement each. This will be followed by 3 alternating replies each. There will then be one closing statement each and no rebuttal.

There is a 10,000 character limit per post.

Any character count in excess of 10,000 will be deleted prior to the judging process.

Editing is strictly forbidden. For reasons of time, mod edits should not be expected except in critical situations.

Opening and closing statements must not contain any images and must have no more than 3 references.

Excluding both the opening and closing statements, only two images and no more than 5 references can be included for each post. Each individual post may contain up to 10 sentences of external source material, totaled from all external sources.

Links to multiple pages within a single domain count as 1 reference but there is a maximum of 3 individual links per reference, then further links from that domain count as a new reference. Excess quotes and excess links will be removed before judging.

The Socratic Debate Rule is in effect. Each debater may ask up to 5 questions in each post, except for in closing statements- no questions are permitted in closing statements. These questions should be clearly labeled as "Question 1, Question 2, etc.

When asked a question, a debater must give a straight forward answer in his next post. Explanations and qualifications to an answer are acceptable, but must be preceded by a direct answer.

This Is The Time Limit Policy:

Each debate must post within 24 hours of the timestamp on the last post. If your opponent is late, you may post immediately without waiting for an announcement of turn forfeiture. If you are late, you may post late, unless your opponent has already posted.

Each debater is entitled to one extension of 24 hours. The request should be posted in this thread and is automatically granted- the 24 hour extension begins at the expiration of the previous deadline, not at the time of the extension request.

In the unlikely event that tardiness results in simultaneous posting by both debaters, the late post will be deleted unless it appears in its proper order in the thread.

Judging will be done by a panel of anonymous judges. After each debate is completed it will be locked and the judges will begin making their decision. One of the debate forum moderators will then make a final post announcing the winner.

**This Debate Starts On Monday Morning**




posted on Dec, 15 2008 @ 10:40 AM
link   
I’d like to take a moment before we begin to wish Skyfloating the best of luck in our skirmish. I’d also like to thank MemoryShock and the rest of the debate staff for making this possible. Let’s have some fun!

----------

For many, Christmas is indeed the most wonderful time of the year. It is a time to rejoice and come together in the spirit of goodness and giving. It’s a time filled with dreams about good food, good company, and the jolly fat man delivering gifts to all the children of the world. However, despite all of the amazing qualities of Christmas, the holiday is not all it could be.

In the course of this debate, we will examine why Christmas deserves to be celebrated more than just one day out of the year. In fact, we will take a close look at why it deserves to be celebrated twelve days of the year!

First, let’s take a comparative look at a couple other holidays to see how Christmas stacks up.

Kwanzaa – This holiday consists of seven days of celebration, featuring activities such as candle-lighting, and culminates in a feast and gift giving.

Hanukkah – This holiday is observed for eight nights, and commemorates the rededication of the Second Temple in Jerusalem.

Christmas – This holiday lasts for one day.

Something just doesn’t seem right here ladies and gentlemen! Kwanzaa and Hanukkah last for a full week, while Christmas only gets one day! And Christmas is the only one that includes an overweight delivery man who pilots a reindeer chariot!

What other holiday offers more magic and joy than Christmas? The answer is none.

The only way to remedy this terrible problem is to extend Christmas from its current 24 hour window, to a full 288 hours of yuletide euphoria. The changes this would require would be minimal, as we already have a theme song.

The Twelve Days of Christmas

In keeping with the tradition and history of the song itself, the twelve days of Christmas would begin with Christmas day itself, and run until January 6th. The gift giving described in the song would, of course, be optional.

What’s more, this extra time extension could really help take some pressure off of Santa and his elves. Obviously the best option would be to reevaluate the current present delivery schedule and find room for improvement. Perhaps Santa could divide his route into daily sections and avoid having to make all his deliveries in one night. With a little less pressure, the North Pole could exponentially improve its quality and efficiency.

At first glance, extending Christmas to twelve days may seem like a selfish thing to do, but as I will continue to show throughout the course of this debate, it is the only reasonable thing to do.



posted on Dec, 15 2008 @ 03:00 PM
link   
Hello nyk537. All the best for this holiday skirmish. But may I make a suggestion? Lets enjoy Christmas, not obsess over it.

Both you and I wont deny that Christmas - what was once a holy time of rest and peace - has widely become synonymous with overeating, stressful shopping deadlines, overpriced products, cheesy and artificial looking decoration, too much alcohol, breeding jealousy-over-gifts among children, force-fed and annoying advertisement, increased suicide rates of the lonely, consumption overwhelm and fatigue, feelings of inadequacy among spouses, disappointed expectations over gifts, fake smiles, unwelcome and forced meetings with unpleasant relatives, waste of money, generation of litter, discrimination of non-christians, new-years-burnout.

Why expand this psychosocial nightmare to 12 days?

Christmas Eve + 1 official Christmas day and another 1-2 additional Christmas-ish days (depending on country and custom) is where the magic is.

Remember the magic? Not the magicTM but the magic. of childhood. Expectations built up until Christmas eve and reached a climax while opening the gifts. The first day of Christmas was spent enjoying the gifts, spending time with the broader family and exchanging pleasantries. The second day was spent with more family time and exchange of niceties and lots of eating. On the third day, the “high” of Christmas usually ebbed out and changed into a pleasant state of relaxation. But by the Fourth Day after Christmas eve, at the very latest, my eyes were already looking for something new to do, new to discover, new to pursue, leaving Christmas behind. New Years was the next goal to look forward to. I think most anyone would agree to this general flow of things. There is no point whatsoever in artificially prolonging this tradition of 2-3 days which we have become accustomed to.

And...come to think of it...its not really just these few days...unfortunately...Holiday season is more than a month long, causing Obesity Hypoventilation Syndrome in nyk537s "jolly fat man".


According to Yanovski et al,[3] in the United States the season "is generally considered to begin with Thanksgiving and end after New Year's Day". According to Axelrad,[4] the season in the United States encompasses at least Christmas and New Year's Day, and also includes Saint Nicholas Day. The U.S. Fire Administration[5] defines the winter holiday season as the period from December 1 to January 7. According to Chen et al.,[6] in China the Christmas/winter holiday season "is generally considered to begin with the winter solstice and end after the Lantern Festival". Some stores and shopping malls advertise their Christmas merchandise beginning after Halloween or even in late October, alongside Halloween items. In the UK Christmas food appears on supermarket shelves as early as September.

1

Please dont make it any longer than it is. I appreciate some of the aspects of Christmas, but please let it be enough after a month of preparation and 1-3 days of festivities.

Let me make an offer: If you agree to keep Christmas as it is (timewise), I agree not to offer anymore challenges in this Debate. Deal?



posted on Dec, 16 2008 @ 11:17 AM
link   
Unfortunately for my opponent, there can be no such agreement.

What we are looking at here is the length of the holiday itself, not what a person chooses to do in that time. What my opponent sees as overeating and overpriced products, I see as taking advantage of what we have and capitalism at it’s finest. What my opponent sees as fake smiles, I see as a gesture of kindness towards those who need improvement in their gift giving.

What’s more, this extension of Christmas doesn’t need to make everyone happy anyway. Do you think everyone who celebrates Hanukkah and Kwanzaa enjoys every single day of their week long festivities? The point is, that if they get more than one day, so should the rest of us.

There are many different ways to take advantage of this extended holiday. We could see extended periods of holiday vacation, and we would be able to enjoy a good hearty meal more than just once or twice a year. We would also get the pleasure of seeing brighter sparkles in the eyes of children as they get to open presents more than one day.

Surely my opponent is not suggesting that we take anything away from the children!

Let us also not forgot the other little people involved in this transition; the elves. I wonder what kind of benefits the elves get for working 364 days a year in arctic conditions. With the new extended Christmas, the elves would be able to kick back and relax for 11 days while Santa delivers presents all over the world. I don’t think you will hear many arguments from them.

I’d like to pause here for a moment and pose some questions for my opponent.

-----

1.) Do you think it is fair that other comparable holidays are celebrated for longer than Christmas?

2.) Do you oppose equal rights and paid time off for Santa’s elves?

3.) Since extending Christmas would prolong the joy for the world’s children and you oppose this extension. Do you hate children?



posted on Dec, 16 2008 @ 12:38 PM
link   


What my opponent sees as fake smiles, I see as a gesture of kindness towards those who need improvement in their gift giving.


Some of us enjoy giving gifts all year round whereas many only barely manage to do so around christmas time.



I see as taking advantage of what we have and capitalism at it’s finest


Consumerism is not Capitalism.



The point is, that if they get more than one day, so should the rest of us.


Ah...so thats the reason you're obsessing over the length of Christmas. Envy.





We could see extended periods of holiday vacation, and we would be able to enjoy a good hearty meal more than just once or twice a year.


We are the most obese nation on earth. Im sure we have more than a day of good eating.




We would also get the pleasure of seeing brighter sparkles in the eyes of children as they get to open presents more than one day.


Or witness as that sparkle turns into a dull and blank stare at the boredom of doing it again and again. Prolonging Christmas clearly takes away from its uniqueness.



1.) Do you think it is fair that other comparable holidays are celebrated for longer than Christmas?


As shown, our holiday season, which includes Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, Christmas and New Years, lasts more than a month. So all is well.





I wonder what kind of benefits the elves get for working 364 days a year...
.) Do you oppose equal rights and paid time off for Santa’s elves?


Reference: How Santas Elves Work

You are mistaken about them working all year round. All is well here too.




3.) Since extending Christmas would prolong the joy for the world’s children and you oppose this extension. Do you hate children?


Basking in my own childhood memories of Christmas I have a special appreciation for the short attention-spans of children and would not force Christmas festivities on them for more than 1-3 days.

Questions:

1. Knowing you as a normally intelligent ATS Member, why do you keep going on about the length of Christmas, why is this so damn important to you?

2. Why is it so difficult for you to grant other cultures their times and ways of celebrating?

3. You want longer holidays. Are you uncomfortable with working?

4. On top of having to serve the entire planet you want Santa to have additional workdays. Do you hate Santa?

5. Whats wrong with celebrating and giving gifts all year round...for example in May or July?



posted on Dec, 16 2008 @ 01:05 PM
link   
My opponent seems to believe that we are simply too arrogant, selfish and fat to have more than one day of Christmas. I don't think that is a fair judgment, and I have a hard time believing there are many of you who would agree with it.

This extension has nothing to do with envy, and really comes down to one simple point. If you don't want to celebrate all 12 days of Christmas, don't. Nobody will force you to participate. However, just because some of you don't feel it's necessary, it doesn't mean that we all shouldn't have the right to extend our favorite holiday.

Now, in response to the answers my opponent has provided.


As shown, our holiday season, which includes Thanksgiving, Christmas Eve, Christmas and New Years, lasts more than a month. So all is well.


Hardly. Thanksgiving and New Years are not Christmas holidays and therefore do not count. I'll give you Christmas Eve, which means we only need to add 10 more days instead of 11.



You are mistaken about them working all year round. All is well here too.


Again, not quite. I could easily find websites detailing how the elves do in fact work all year. The only person that can answer this definitively is Santa himself.


Basking in my own childhood memories of Christmas I have a special appreciation for the short attention-spans of children and would not force Christmas festivities on them for more than 1-3 days.


Great. Nobody will ask you to. We will see how those children feel when they see their friends keep opening presents for 10 or 11 more days than them though.

Questions From My Opponent.


Knowing you as a normally intelligent ATS Member, why do you keep going on about the length of Christmas, why is this so damn important to you?


Because that is the debate topic we have been given my friend. I must be passionate about it.


Why is it so difficult for you to grant other cultures their times and ways of celebrating?


It isn't. I am not proposing that we shorten or interfere with their traditions at all.


You want longer holidays. Are you uncomfortable with working?


Not at all, but I'm sure some of the "obese consumerists" you mentioned are.


On top of having to serve the entire planet you want Santa to have additional workdays. Do you hate Santa?


Not at all my friend. The additional work days would allow him to pace himself. Regardless, the man has magical powers.


Whats wrong with celebrating and giving gifts all year round...for example in May or July?


Nothing at all, and nobody is attempting to stop you from giving gifts all year.

What's more, if that is your main issue, we can work with that. We are debating whether or not Christmas should have 12 days, not 12 consecutive days. If you want to assign one of the 12 days of Christmas to each month we can.

If so, I'll accept your concession.



posted on Dec, 16 2008 @ 02:42 PM
link   
Lets step up the Gear

I must say...this is one *BORING* Debate.


Especially for Christmas one would expect our posts to get more stars. This is not my opponents fault or mine. Instead its the ambiguity on whether this is a humorous or a serious debate, leading both Debaters to not get too serious and not get too humorous. I will therefore now start posting with more vigor and determination with the clear aim of winning this debate. If Im sounding more serious, I apologize. But by the end, there will be no doubt whatsoever that we should stay true to our own tradition of Christmas instead of following others.




My opponent seems to believe that we are simply too arrogant, selfish and fat to have more than one day of Christmas. I don't think that is a fair judgment, and I have a hard time believing there are many of you who would agree with it.


Truth of the matter is that, just like us (and quit trying to mask it), most people couldnt give a rats bottom whether Christmas is "officially" 12 days or 1-3 days. Unofficially everyone will celebrate as little or as much as they want.



This extension has nothing to do with envy, and really comes down to one simple point. If you don't want to celebrate all 12 days of Christmas, don't. Nobody will force you to participate. However, just because some of you don't feel it's necessary, it doesn't mean that we all shouldn't have the right to extend our favorite holiday.


And in doing so forcing the economy to a standstill for 12 days?

In other words: "Work less (stay home) and buy more presents (for all those days)". Yeah, thats really going to be helpful in our current economic crisis





Hardly. Thanksgiving and New Years are not Christmas holidays and therefore do not count. I'll give you Christmas Eve, which means we only need to add 10 more days instead of 11.


For what exactly do we need this many days? I must have missed something.

SQ1: Could you specify the Christmas activities for each day?




Again, not quite. I could easily find websites detailing how the elves do in fact work all year.


But you havent.




Great. Nobody will ask you to. We will see how those children feel when they see their friends keep opening presents for 10 or 11 more days than them though.


Yeah, we`ll see what happens when the kids are sick with overwhelm of having too-much-choice and the parents are dead-broke from spending.




Because that is the debate topic we have been given my friend. I must be passionate about it.


SQ2: Ah...so you're saying you dont actually believe in this?




What's more, if that is your main issue, we can work with that. We are debating whether or not Christmas should have 12 days, not 12 consecutive days. If you want to assign one of the 12 days of Christmas to each month we can.


I dont think so. If its an Summer-Holiday it might be just a bit misguided to call it "Christmas". Besides, it was you who quoted the song/poem "12 days of Christmas", which, traditionally goes from the end of December to January.

SQ3: Wouldnt mimicking what Jews do (Hanukah) be embarassing?

SQ4: Would 11 days of Christmas (rather than 12) also do?



posted on Dec, 16 2008 @ 03:27 PM
link   
Ladies and gentlemen, do not by swayed by my opponent constantly saying that this will change our Christmas traditions. This move is merely an effort to allow us more holiday time, nothing more. I would not suggest to you that we copy the traditions of other cultures, or in any way alter our own.

Now let's examine some of my opponents remarks.


Truth of the matter is that, just like us (and quit trying to mask it), most people couldn't give a rats bottom whether Christmas is "officially" 12 days or 1-3 days. Unofficially everyone will celebrate as little or as much as they want.


Maybe, but the same could be said of every holiday regardless of how long it lasts. Peoples personal choice obviously didn't affect the decisions to place current holidays where they were.


And in doing so forcing the economy to a standstill for 12 days?

In other words: "Work less (stay home) and buy more presents (for all those days)".


Nobody said that everyone would automatically get the whole time off from work. Heck, even with one day of Christmas there are still many, many people who have to work.

Nobody suggested that this would require the purchase of more gifts either. The parents could split the gifts up among the days, or just keep with current tradition and give them all on Christmas day itself.

There is no need to alter everything we do just because we are extending the holiday.


Yeah, thats really going to be helpful in our current economic crisis


For many, that could be said for Christmas in general right now, or many other things.


But you haven't.(provided any sources)


I would have, but they are all about as useless as the one you provided. On closer inspection, the article you linked to makes no mention of how many days a year the elves would work. It only says that by New Years, they "may be ready for a break."


Yeah, we`ll see what happens when the kids are sick with overwhelm of having too-much-choice and the parents are dead-broke from spending.


Again, you are making the assumption that just because the holiday is extended, that people will lose all control and act like crazy people. I'm not exactly sure why you view people in that way.


I dont think so. If its an Summer-Holiday it might be just a bit misguided to call it "Christmas".


How so? What about the name "Christmas" says that is can only take place in the winter?


Besides, it was you who quoted the song/poem "12 days of Christmas", which, traditionally goes from the end of December to January.


True. I was only responding to your previous remarks. I'm all for the extension in any form.

Now in response to your questions...


Could you specify the Christmas activities for each day?


No. I'm not in charge of defining what people should and shouldn't do on their holidays. With the extra time, people can choose to do whatever they want.


Ah...so you're saying you dont actually believe in this?


Absolutely not. I firmly believe an extension of the holiday season would be great for everyone involved.


Wouldnt mimicking what Jews do (Hanukah) be embarassing?


Who said we were mimicking what Jews do with Hanukkah? I am proposing we extend Christmas to 12 days, not the 8 days that Hanukkah celebrates. I am also not proposing we borrow any of their traditions.


Would 11 days of Christmas (rather than 12) also do?


I don't believe it would. Most of us have already been conditioned to recognize the 12 days of Christmas. So extending it to 12 days would be the most natural and comfortable fit.

Again, do not let yourselves be fooled by my opponent trying to make us all out to be uncontrollable spenders and overweight buffoons.

Now for a quick question for my opponent.

1.) Why are you so against extending the holiday to 12 days, especially since you don't have to participate if you don't want to?



posted on Dec, 16 2008 @ 05:11 PM
link   
This Debate has become more enjoyable now




Ladies and gentlemen, do not by swayed by my opponent constantly saying that this will change our Christmas traditions.


Adding 11 days to Christmas will not change the way we experience and conduct Christmas? I doubt it. It doesnt take a visionary to see that the 1-3 days of rest, gift-giving and celebration would turn into a pointless and unproductive hanging around if that were to be expanded.

Whats more: Our holiday-mood and holiday decoration already outlast those few days by a long shot. Christmas trees start popping up at the beginning of December and often stay up until well into January.



Nobody said that everyone would automatically get the whole time off from work


Definition of Holiday: - a day on which ordinary business is suspended, esp. because of a religious or national celebration

You are clearly struggling in defining what you mean by "12 days of Christmas".



or just keep with current tradition and give them all on Christmas day itself.


Exactly. Which is why there is no need for an additional 11 days.




There is no need to alter everything we do just because we are extending the holiday.


To be quite frank and honest here, I am totally fine with extending Christmas to 2,3,4,5 and even 6 days. But two weeks? Thats a bit too much and I think most westerners of Christian countries would agree with me.


SQ1: Do you agree that 12 extra holidays (as opposed to 1 to 6) is wildly exaggerated (especially in these times of economic crisis)?



How so? What about the name "Christmas" says that is can only take place in the winter?


You claim not to want to disturb our traditions but then make such a statement. Originally holiday comes from the word holy day...a sacred day in which we honor our traditions. Countless songs, pictures, books, fairy tales, legends, CDs, movies would have to be changed if you summer-ize Christmas. "Im dreaming of a white Christmas" would loose its meaning. Our very Traditions would loose meaning.

One thing I always loved about Christmas is: When it gets really cold and harsh outside, at least we have the cozy Christmas atmosphere to relax into.




No. I'm not in charge of defining what people should and shouldn't do on their holidays. With the extra time, people can choose to do whatever they want.


Not if we go by your implication that they might have to go to work.




Who said we were mimicking what Jews do with Hanukkah? I am proposing we extend Christmas to 12 days, not the 8 days that Hanukkah celebrates. I am also not proposing we borrow any of their traditions.


And yet...you referred to other traditions and called it "unfair" that we have shorter Christmas Holidays than them.




I don't believe it would. Most of us have already been conditioned to recognize the 12 days of Christmas. So extending it to 12 days would be the most natural and comfortable fit.


Actually the amount of days we are used to would be "the most natural and comfortable fit". Extending it by 1 or 2 days (which has already been done in some European countries if Im not mistaken) will not stretch our tradition by too much and is a realistic goal. Taking it to twelve days is not a realistic goal but a crazy exaggeration and completely unnecessary.




1.) Why are you so against extending the holiday to 12 days, especially since you don't have to participate if you don't want to?



Because I do have to participate...when I stand in front of closed shop doors, when nobody responds to my business emails and calls, when kids are expecting more gifts, when relatives are expecting more dinners...for 12 long days


SQ1: Do you concede that the definition of "holiday" as given in this post, is correct?

SQ2: Do you concede that adding 1-3 more days is a more realistic proposition than 12 days?

SQ3: What do you make of the fact that suicide-rates are the highest during Christmas time?

SQ4: Has Christmas become too commercial?

SQ5: Will 3 to 5 extra days satisfy your desire for more holidays?



posted on Dec, 17 2008 @ 01:06 PM
link   
I am requesting my 24 hour extension at this time.

Thank you.



posted on Dec, 18 2008 @ 09:33 AM
link   

It doesn't take a visionary to see that the 1-3 days of rest, gift-giving and celebration would turn into a pointless and unproductive hanging around if that were to be expanded.


Not true. Again you are making the assumption that simply because there would be 12 days of Christmas that each one would warrant a day off of work. This extension would be in spirit mainly. Employers would most likely still offer the same holiday breaks they always have (obviously it's up to them individually).

Just because we are extending the holiday, it doesn't mean that everyone is suddenly going to turn into unproductive slobs.


Whats more: Our holiday-mood and holiday decoration already outlast those few days by a long shot.


Great! That's one less change that will have to be made.


Definition of Holiday: - a day on which ordinary business is suspended, esp. because of a religious or national celebration


But that isn't always true is it? Valentines day is a Holiday, and I don't get off of work for that. St. Patrick's Day is a Holiday, but I'm working then too.


You are clearly struggling in defining what you mean by "12 days of Christmas".


You are clearly taking things much, much too literally.


To be quite frank and honest here, I am totally fine with extending Christmas to 2,3,4,5 and even 6 days. But two weeks? Thats a bit too much and I think most westerners of Christian countries would agree with me.


Really? I guess we should just take your word then...well, except for some who are already celebrating Christmas for 12 days.

Our 12 Days of Christmas Tradition


You claim not to want to disturb our traditions but then make such a statement.


I am not interested in changing our traditions, I'm only proposing we add a new one. My only reason for suggesting splitting the days up was to respond to your claim that 12 days was too much at once. My proposal is to extend Christmas itself to 12 days.


One thing I always loved about Christmas is: When it gets really cold and harsh outside, at least we have the cozy Christmas atmosphere to relax into.


I know exactly what you mean! So let's relax into that cozy atmosphere a little longer, shall we?


Not if we go by your implication that they might have to go to work.


And they should have to go to work, unless they use vacation time or whatever else they have. As I've said before, a holiday does not necessitate a day off of work. See several of our other holidays for examples.


And yet...you referred to other traditions and called it "unfair" that we have shorter Christmas Holidays than them.


True, but I didn't suggest we mimic their traditions. I'm not asking people to light menorahs and celebrate for 8 days, nor am I asking anyone to wear a Uwole.


Taking it to twelve days is not a realistic goal but a crazy exaggeration and completely unnecessary.


According to you. I don't see it as an exaggeration at all.

I wonder what other things we currently hold as tradition were viewed as unnecessary when they were first proposed?


Because I do have to participate...when I stand in front of closed shop doors, when nobody responds to my business emails and calls, when kids are expecting more gifts, when relatives are expecting more dinners...for 12 long days


Again, you are making assumptions about how everyone will celebrate the 12 days of Christmas.

Nobody will force stores to close, or businesses to shut down. As I've said repeatedly, nobody shuts down on Valentines Day, St. Patrick's Day, and several other holidays, so why would they suddenly change because of an extension on Christmas?

If you don't want to buy your kids more gifts, or have you relatives stay longer, don't. Nobody will force you to.

The 12 days are not going to be Christmas Day 12 times over, they are just an extended time to celebrate.


Do you concede that the definition of "holiday" as given in this post, is correct?


Absolutely not, and I've shown why at least 3 times in this response. Your definition assumes that all businesses shut down on holidays, which is untrue.


Do you concede that adding 1-3 more days is a more realistic proposition than 12 days?


No I don't. I believe if you were to propose such a small change, people would not be interested. You may hear responses similar to "what's the point?".

I think people would be excited to extend Christmas to 12 days, especially since they have always associated with the "12 Days of Christmas".


What do you make of the fact that suicide-rates are the highest during Christmas time?


What do you make of the fact that your statement is COMPLETELY UNTRUE?


Has Christmas become too commercial?


For some maybe, but not for all. There is no need to punish many for the sins of a few.


Will 3 to 5 extra days satisfy your desire for more holidays?


No it won't, and I'm fairly sure I've made my case as to why.



posted on Dec, 18 2008 @ 12:59 PM
link   
*Skirmish Closing*



Again you are making the assumption that simply because there would be 12 days of Christmas that each one would warrant a day off of work. This extension would be in spirit mainly.


Oh...so now, all of a sudden its only "in spirit". You keep flip-flopping in your definitions of what these Holidays are supposed to be. Dont we already have 12 days (or even a whole month!) of Christmas "in spirit"?

First you say you want to celebrate longer (which contradicts doing business or going to work).

Then you say we could still go to work.

Then you say its "mainly in spirit".

Whats it gonna be?

Am I alone in entirely missing any reason whatsoever to create twelve official holidays?

Dear Judges,

I have provided many, many reasons as to why Christmas can stay the
way it is. My opponent has lost himself in contradictions and vagueness.




St. Patrick's Day is a Holiday, but I'm working then too.



St. Patricks day...in Canada, Great Britain, Australia, the United States and New Zealand, it is widely celebrated but is not an official holiday. [1]


Source

I know its "only" a *holiday skirmish*, but you could be a little more truthful with your statements.




Really? I guess we should just take your word then...well, except for some who are already celebrating Christmas for 12 days. Our 12 Days of Christmas Tradition


Thanks for proving my point. In an earlier post I said people will celebrate as long as they want...no matter what is "official".

The reason I oppose an "official 12 days" is because it indeed will take away from business time and impose a national slow down that is too long. 3 days? Fine. 4 days? Fine. 5 days? Yeah, alright. 12 days? Nonsense.




My proposal is to extend Christmas itself to 12 days.


Yes, but why? This Debate requires an answer to the big "Why". Up to now your answer eludes me because you have a different answer with every post. "To celebrate more!"...ah, no, "we should go to work afterall"...uh, "mainly in spirit"...

The way things are NOW, we already have all of those options. One can choose to take an extended weekend. Choose to take a vacation. Choose not to take a vacation. Choose to celebrate more. Choose to celebrate less. What you are suggesting would impose a governmental law on the populace which limits are choices.

Do we want the Government to impose 12 days as mandatory Christmas time? I doubt it.




I think people would be excited to extend Christmas to 12 days, especially since they have always associated with the "12 Days of Christmas".


Ah...so is this at last the answer to the "Why"? "We should have 12 days Because people have associated Christmas with 12 days"? Kind of circular there. Ive actually always associated Christmas with the entire month of December and then 1-3 days where it gets really interesting.



I'm not asking people to light menorahs and celebrate for 8 days, nor am I asking anyone to wear a Uwole.


Yes. But we are still asking ourselves: What then are you asking???




What do you make of the fact that your statement is COMPLETELY UNTRUE? (that suicide rates go up during christmas time)



You should have read your own source before posting. Let me quote from it for you:



Suicide is not linked to Holidays, at least not in Minnestoas Olmsted County


Now contrast this, with a real source:



Dr Vladeta Ajdacic-Gross of the Institute of Social and Preventive Medicine, at the University of Zurich, has just published the very latest European data on suicide rates ...

...after Christmas, suicide rates climb rapidly, so that by early January they significantly exceed the average for the year.


Source

_____________________________________________

Do we really need 12 official days of Christmas?

I think Ive shown that dont really.

My opponents responses remind me of a kid saying "just cuz". No reason really...just cuz.

Right. Lets change our entire Christmas Tradition "just because". Or because its "unfair that others have more" as my opponent has suggested earlier.

1. I have shown that Christmas is not all happiness for everyone. No need to prolong it to that many days.

2. I have shown that that many days would effect business adversely (and is therefore not "the capitalists dream" as my opponent says)

3. I have shown that some of us already celebrate it "in spirit" for however long they want (and that we dont need the Government Stamp to celebrate "in spirit")

4. I have shown that its embarrassing to want to mimic other nations

5. I have shown that the entire holiday-season from Thanksgiving to New Years is already much longer than 12 days and that theres no need to add to that.

Conclusion:
More than a month of Holiday-Season and 1-3 days of Christmas (and maybe, someday even a few more) is just fine.

What we need is not more public holidays, what we really need is more LOVE all around...and not just for Christmas. /fade-in-beatles-song-"All you need is Love" here/

All things said and done ***Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year**** to my opponent nyk537, to all the ladies and gentlemen of the FightClubPub, and to the hardworking Forum Mods and Judges.



posted on Jan, 11 2009 @ 09:04 PM
link   
Congratulations to both Fighters...by majority decision, nyk537 takes this debate. The judges comments:



Great debate topic that was well played by both sides. Although I find myself agreeing with Skyfloating's position, nyk537 emerges as the winner in terms of how the debate was performed. Many issues were brought up during the debate and the rebuttals were well executed by both debaters.

Over all, I feel nyk537 did a better job presenting his arguments rationally while Skyfloating too often came across as appealing to emotion and relying on dramatized stereotypes. +1 nyk537.

Skyfloating's point about the climax and magic of a single Christmas Day was great. +1 Skyfloating.

I found it odd that nyk537 was occasionally criticized for debating or being passionate about the position they were assigned. It seemed strange to criticize a debater for doing what they are supposed to do or referring to their defense as "obsessive." -1 Skyfloating.

nyk537 offered a good rebuttal to Skyfloating's claim about the length of the holiday season including Thanksgiving and New Years by pointing out the close proximity is not technically Christmas. +1 nyk537.

nyk537 also returns well on the argument that 12 days of Christmas would somehow mean businesses would be closed during that time. Good job on pointing that out as speculation and not an automatic requirement to extend Christmas. +1 nyk537.

Skyfloating makes a good point about business coming to a standstill for 12 days but then nyk makes a good counter that this is only an assumption and not necessarily the way it would be. Good rebuttal. +1 nyk537.

Skyfloating asks the question about the specific number of 12 days and why not less if we are to extend the holiday. Being that this debate specifically mentions the subject of 12 days, this was a very important question that I did not feel nyk537 answered adequately. nyk537 used Kwanzaa and Hanukkah as a comparison (both having significance behind their length) but the only reasoning defending his position was the song and as skyfloating later points out 'just cuz.' +2 Skyfloating since this was an extremely important argument.

Skyfloating raised another excellent point about how people will celebrate something as much or as little as they want to regardless of the official length of the holiday. +1 Skyfloating.

Point Totals:
nyk537: 4
Skyfloating: 3
The win goes to nyk537 by a slim margin.




Open nyk537

I wasn’t certain what to make of the opening that ignored the 12-day Christmas tradition as it has stood for a long time. Just because only one of the 12 days is recognized as a ‘national’ holiday doesn’t mean the other days don’t exist. January 6th is Tree Kings Day – also recognized nationally by many predominantly Catholic states. But the question is really if your defining holiday to mean day off from work!

Open Skyfloating

Opening with the taunt “..let’s not obsess over it” kind of put me off. My reaction was strictly visceral, and your taunt was not technically inappropriate, but it took away from the spirit of debate. While we can all cynically reflect on the general lack of appreciation for the namesake of the tradition, it is nonetheless full of positive potential, as we can see Hollywood exploit it frequently. To me, the challenge of your offer was, I won’t bash Christmas if you’ll give up.
----------------------------------------------------------
Round Evaluation: nky537 had the better opening.
----------------------------------------------------------

Post 1 nyk537

You seem to be a potential organizer for the Mutualist Unions of Elven Laborer’s; I find this bit of MUEL propaganda questionable. We have seen both in other Holiday skirmishes and elsewhere no concrete evidence that JSN (Jolly Saint Nick, LLC) is running a sweat shop. Yet you have maintained an honorable appreciation for the ‘Christmas season’ being more than one day long.

Your SQ 1 calls into question a judgment of fairness regarding holiday length. Point?

Your SQ2 seems a implication to maintain the evil JSN enterprise, for shame!

Your SQ3 Nice one! Right below the belt!

Post 1 Skyfloating

Way to stay in character! “Ah...so thats the reason you're obsessing over the length of Christmas. Envy. “ Classic! I can’t say I envy your position in the debate, it’s a trick to stay cynical and actually be lighthearted about it; especially in the written form. You did well on the SQs. SQ1 was sort of a trap wasn’t it? Nyk537 really has no choice, nor do you.

----------------------------------------------------------
Round Evaluation: Syfloating prevailed
----------------------------------------------------------

Post 2 nyk537

You opened restoring the positive element of Christmas, good play. But you followed with an argument that may weaken your position, bringing ‘individual’ personal choice into it. I suspect this may bite back at you.

Your responses to the SQs had more meat and are worthy of note. Essentially, you exchanged barbs while still defending the notion of an extended – specifically Christmas – Holiday season, but then, alarmingly, the twelve traditional days of Christmas was abandoned by you in this section.

Post 2 Skyfloating

I respect the off topic comment – This kind of debate is distinct and separate from our usual ‘conspiratorial’ or ‘ideological’ meat and potatoes debate. It really does require a ‘different gear.’

However, attempting to redefine Christmas in terms of ‘days off from work’ as opposed to ‘days of Christmas celebration’ required better timing, and a bit more groundwork.

Your SQs still seem a bit all over the map to me. Although you did score a hit by redirecting nyk537 to the ‘traditional’ days of Christmas which he had conceded to you.

----------------------------------------------------------
Round Evaluation: Nyk537 lost this round
----------------------------------------------------------

Post 3 nyk537

I have never felt completely ‘sold’ on the flow structure you used. The back and forth between quotes and responses seems ill-suited to the spirit of debate. However, you countered well. This is a deceptively difficult debate.

Post 2 Skyfloating

It is difficult to warm up to your position. Your objections seem increasingly focused on negative aspects of the season. I suspect you in a way are trapped by your options as well. Indeed a difficult debate.

----------------------------------------------------------
Round Evaluation: Nyk537 took this round
---------------------------------------------------------

Nyk537 Closing

I’m convinced that the quote for quote response technique isn’t working well. You are very articulate and your position remains positive. I believe you have weakened your argument by loosening the constraints of the 12 days. I was expecting a bit more punch in your closing.

Skyfloating Closing

Your closing was very strong. Your points dedicated to the proposition that there should be no change in the current practices of the ‘Christmas’ are clear and I think more convincing.

----------------------------------------------------------
Round Evaluation: Skyfloating’s closer was superior.
---------------------------------------------------------

I think any debaters can be forgiven to appear to struggle with this kind of exchange. Both debaters showed their caliber and managed to carry it off quite well.

In my opinion, Nyk537 wins this debate by a narrow margin.



posted on Jan, 12 2009 @ 01:50 AM
link   
wow nyk!
congratulations.

a wonderful and very interesting debate


well done both of you guys.

i am happy that there are already 2 days of chirstmas in germany



posted on Jan, 12 2009 @ 04:30 AM
link   
I had forgotten all about this one


Nice going nyk....you beat me a second time.


To add: Im impressed how much time the judges took on this. SUPERB!

[edit on 12-1-2009 by Skyfloating]



posted on Jan, 12 2009 @ 07:20 AM
link   
Congratulations Skyfloating on a well fought debate!

This was a lot of fun.





new topics
top topics
 
10

log in

join