the reason I fear the God of the bible: science

Originally posted by Good Wolf
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

I find it funny. It's hard to take a command to rape people out of context.

Wolf for someone who is not yet sure whether God exists or not ..I would be very careful on what your accusing him of saying or doing or commanding .
You keep saying you have an open mind ....but your posts show otherwise .

It is one thing to sit and accuse believers of doing or saying horrible things ..because we are sinful and make major mistakes (even when interpreting what the word says) ....but God does not ...and he is HOLY and JUST ...(I dont want you to be ashamed of the things you said later in life if you ever do find out that he is real) .............



[edit on 6-12-2008 by Simplynoone]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Your wrong ...every believer at ATS has admitted to you that people can take the word of God and twist to fit their twisted ideas

Of course believers have 'admited' that others 'can' take the word of God out of context. But when have I done this? The scriptures I've presented are there to support a point. That point being that the God of the Old Testament is vastly different than the God of the New Testament.
You can't take out of context a verse which says if your child disobeys you to kill him/her... It's pretty straightforward, and yet if that were the only law of God's I had a problem with, it would still be enough for me to see the evil therein.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
....and have done so many times in the past in the here and now and will again for as long as mankind is on this earth

Please do point it out then. I beg you to provide proof of me twisting the scripture... I may make a mistake from time to time, but if pointed out, I will correct myself.
I'm so tired of assumptions...

Originally posted by Simplynoone
I mean look at what Noob and you and MANY OTHERS do here at ATS in support of their own twisted ideas ..they quote scripture to dispute scripture (which is just the opposite of what Scripture is supposed to do (which is scripture will interpret scripture ) ..........and he does a very good job of it I might add (Like Hitler did ) ........

Yes I post scripture to disprove the scripture. And why would I do this? Could it possibly be because the scripture has faults in it? Faults which you can research any time if you want to? I suppose it's easier to blame the messenger who delivers the message that your faith is flawed. If you don't want to hear the message or do the research, then don't.
Believe me, if I get something wrong, it is pointed out by any number of creationists who lurk around here. I'm constantly kept on my toes to not convey 'twisted ideas'. The logic and knowledge is all there, do not blame me for the fact that you refuse to look at it. If you did look at it, and I was indeed wrong, then you could show me how I'm wrong. However, simply saying "you're wrong" doesn't do anything except tell me that you base your opinion on assumptions and not knowledge...
I'm sure you'll ignore this message and post another "Atheists are godless, possessed by the Devil, only seek to destroy our faith, Hitler, Bush, blah blah"...
The logic and the knowledge is there - if you find fault with it, then present where you find fault with it...

reply to post by TruthParadox


So your saying it cannot possibly be YOU who are MISINTERPETING the scriptures ? >>>>I will admit to you that I HAVE misinterpreted scriptures MANY TIMES ...and most of them were scriptures I thought I could justify to cover my sins ...I found out no matter how I twisted it ..it still comes out that what I was doing was WRONG and scripture was not going to justify it for me.

And many scriptures I could not figure out what it was about (I saw the supposed contradictions too ) but only because they were pointed to me (implanted in my brain by others) ...but once I started reading all scriptures that were relevant to the subject ...the pieces all came together after awhile and the I understood what those scriptures were saying .

If it was so easy to understand scripture ..there would be no need for the HOLY SPIRIT to help discern it now would there ? ............
The Lord said the HOLY SPIRIT will teach you all understanding ..


Jer 8:9 The wise [men] are ashamed, they are dismayed and taken: lo, they have rejected the word of the LORD; and what wisdom [is] in them?

Mat 22:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.


Jhn 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

Jhn 5:38 And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he hath sent, him ye believe not.

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Jhn 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

Jhn 5:41 I receive not honour from men.

reply to post by Simplynoone


I didn't say that I will never make a mistake, just that most of the time I won't .
If you have understanding from the Holy Spirit, then it should be a piece of cake to point out how one of us is 'twisting' the scripture, instead of simply saying "you're twisting the scripture"...

reply to post by Simplynoone

Wolf for someone who is not yet sure whether God exists or not ..I would be very careful on what your accusing him of saying or doing or commanding .
You keep saying you have an open mind ....but your posts show otherwise .

No you're wrong. I have an open mind about God in general- the bible is not God, and is exceedingly unlikely to have anything to do with him. My criticism of the bible doesn't reflect close mindedness about God. That and I've said to you multiple times that I am overtly critical and covertly considerate. You seem to ignore that.

It is one thing to sit and accuse believers of doing or saying horrible things ..because we are sinful and make major mistakes (even when interpreting what the word says) ....but God does not ...and he is HOLY and JUST ...(I dont want you to be ashamed of the things you said later in life if you ever do find out that he is real) .............

HAH! Holy and Just, indeed. The believers who do wrongly will utilise the bible for their own ends, you know that. The depiction of God within is a horrid and unjust God, an evil child sitting on top of an ant-hill with a magnifying glass, so I'm going to be as judgemental about the bibles' depiction of God as much as I feel I should be.

(I dont want you to be ashamed of the things you said later in life if you ever do find out that he is real)

I hope I can be there if you ever find out he isn't real like I did, and I could tell you what my atheist friend told me.

"Congratulations. You have taken your first steps into a larger world."

[edit on 6/12/2008 by Good Wolf]

Originally posted by TruthParadox
reply to post by Simplynoone

 

I didn't say that I will never make a mistake, just that most of the time I won't

.
If you have understanding from the Holy Spirit, then it should be a piece of cake to point out how one of us is 'twisting' the scripture, instead of simply saying "you're twisting the scripture"...

I do not believe the Lord would overdose a believer on the MEAT of the word .
I can only sink in so much in so much time .....it is a babystep ordeal ..
It has taken me years and much much studying and living the word and praying for the meaning etc ....in order to even understand some of it ....No it is no CINCH ...as you well know even people who devote their life to the scriptures cannot possiblyretain all the info and come to complete understanding of it all in a short period of time ..

Actually I spent my first ten years just learning the MILK of the word ..
Understanding why Christ came ..what he was here to do ..why I needed to know him etc etc ...................it has only been a few years ago that I started digging into prophecy books ..(Revelation and Daniel etc) I read them many many times ...but I would get frustraited with trying to understand it ...so I went and dug into other stuff because I wasnt ready in spirit yet to even take it in ...the spiritual walk is about like learning to walk the run etc like when your a child .
You would not teach a child of 4 algebra ....
You would not teach a babe in Christ ...the book of Revelation ...
(or a believer who like me stayed stagnant due to my backslidden condition and did not read the bible for a long time then went back into it years later .. ) I actually had to sort of start all over again because I never really understood much the first time ..(like what the symbolic meanings of Baptism was and being born again etc) I did not actually become born again until the second time I came back to the Lord and started actually digging into the word ................I had to start all over again ....because as I said I didnt even really understand the simple stuff yet so I could not move on to the hard stuff ..



[edit on 6-12-2008 by Simplynoone]

reply to post by Simplynoone


On the assumption that God does exist and he inspired the bible, he shot himself in the foot. Making a book that cannot be understood except for a life time of study (and then some) and having followers who can't defend it. It's like he doesn't want to convert many, at least not on the merits of the bible.

I have a simpler solution. The bible is not divinely inspired and a requirement of study and guidance by the "holy spirit" in order to find any truth in it is the tell tale signs of inadequacy.


[edit on 7/12/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by Simplynoone


That's not how it works.
You told me I twist the scripture.
If I'm twisting the scripture than I'm lying about what it says.
I am not lying, you can check for yourself.
I make mistakes from time to time, but that's about it.
If I have made a mistake, then point it out.

You say that you have understanding of the scripture from the Holy Spirit. So then unless this 'understanding' is only a feeling, you should be able to point out how myself and others have twisted the scripture.
Once that is done, I will recant my statement about that specific scripture.
However, as I said, you would have to prove me wrong on all the laws of the Old Testament, as that is the only way my points would not stand.

reply to post by TruthParadox


Sorry but your saying God is a murderer your saying he wanted people to rape woman etc etc ..Your saying his laws are not just etc ..(all because your not understanding or even trying to understand any of it ) .............
Your whole purpose is not to actually try and understand what was written and why ...but to lead whoever you can away from God and away from believing ...which as far as I am concerned is being a child of satan ...because thats what his will is to do to all of mankind ....
I have NEVER met a Christian who read the OT and the NT and misunderstood it as badly as you all have ..All you have done is taken it all out of context drawn a irrational conclusion and twisted it to pervert the truth of the messages .............

How can you even talk to someone as irrational as that ?

I give ....and all I can do from this point is PRAY for you ......

reply to post by HIFIGUY


Ah the old out of context justification.
What about all the other (quite consise) remarks and instructions issuing from god beseeching his followers to kill unruly teenagers,non beleivers,slaves,homosexuals,sabbath workers,adulterers,people that attempt to persuade jews from their relgion etc..
and all the bloodthirsty,murderous deeds advocated and commited by the abrahamic god-have all these been misconstrued or misinterpreted as well?

reply to post by Simplynoone



To a person of reason and logic alone, revelation is foolishness..

I have said this so many times, and do you know what people come back with against that statement?

They accuse me of saying that reason and logic are foolishness, which in the end IMO only demonstrates my point that revelation is foolishness, to the person of reason and logic alone..

Both religion and science depend completely on reason and logic they do not recognize the possibility or existence of revelation which occurs in real time in the form specifically of word of knowledge, word of wisdom, or discerning of spirits..

All things received by revelation contain the truth whether it be a book like the bible or Koran, or whether it be a song or article in the news paper.

Any work done by a human being or beings who are inspired by God contains the truth.

The way it works though is in order for the individual to see the truth contained in the book or words, because revelation was required to produce the work, revelation is required to interpret the truth from it..

That is why some people see the truth in the bible and some don't, some see the truth in nature and some don't.

In order for a person to see any truth contained in a thing it must be revealed to them, it can not be fully communicated through the use of language alone, or any method which rests solely upon the use of our five sense perceptions, because of the factual limitations of human perceptual ability.

If something factually contains truth then that truth resides in a broader dimensional state than what can be perceived by our five senses ability alone which defines the limitation of our logic and reason...

My point being again, to a person of logic and reason alone revelation is foolishness.

Here is a link to one of my vids titled God can be proven that explains this idea some more.

God can be proven

www.youtube.com...



[edit on 7-12-2008 by newday]

Originally posted by newday

To a person of reason and logic alone, revelation is foolishness..

I have said this so many times, and do you know what people come back with against that statement?

They accuse me of saying that reason and logic are foolishness, which in the end IMO only demonstrates my point that revelation is foolishness, to the person of reason and logic alone..

i agree your not saying they are foolish, your just choosing to not apply them

Both religion and science depend completely on reason and logic

id love to see you prove religeon relies on logic

they do not recognize the possibility or existence of revelation which occurs in real time in the from specifically of word of knowledge, word of wisdom, or discerning of spirits..

you have to belive to understand?

you have to believe to have faith

you have to have evidence to accept
you need to accept to understand

God can be proven

www.youtube.com...

watched it you didnt sorry

you proved you think god exits

your whole argument reliese on the belief of god existing to prove god exists

god exists
something happens that i say shows god exists
so god exists

your starting with the answer its a false dichotemy, to prove it you need to start with the question, how can i prove god exists? then supply evidence that cannot be subjective or misidentifable


[edit on 7/12/08 by noobfun]

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Sorry but your saying God is a murderer your saying he wanted people to rape woman etc etc ..Your saying his laws are not just etc ..(all because your not understanding or even trying to understand any of it )

But that's the thing... there is no understanding why he would set up such cruel laws. It's simply a fact that he did set up those laws. If you could give a just reason why, then you could do what no other Christian has ever done... There is no just reason... It's like if I asked you to understand Hitler's actions. I'm sure you could give him the benefit of the doubt and find good in him, but could you justify his actions?

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Your whole purpose is not to actually try and understand what was written and why ...but to lead whoever you can away from God and away from believing ...which as far as I am concerned is being a child of satan ...because thats what his will is to do to all of mankind ....

My purpose is not, actually, to lead people away from the belief in God, though that could be seen as part of the outcome. I simply want to reach to people like me who were indoctrinated with a belief. Why wouldn't I want to point out the faults in the Bible? I actually don't want to convert certain people, because those people (like you) are so reliant on the idea of God that if proven false, would probably be very depressed. The thing is, these people are filtered out naturally, because the people who are this reliant are also willing to ignore all logic and reason to continue their beliefs. So the only people I am reaching and am trying to reach is people who already know that the Bible has many faults and simply haven't vocalized it or in many cases admited it to themselves even.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
I have NEVER met a Christian who read the OT and the NT and misunderstood it as badly as you all have ..All you have done is taken it all out of context drawn a irrational conclusion and twisted it to pervert the truth of the messages .............

Your first sentence sums one of my points up nicely. You've never met a Christian who reads the OT and NT like an athiest - or a skeptic. And because most Christians don't read their own book as a skeptic, these flaws simply fly over their head. But as for you saying that I'm taking things out of context, well that's just absurd. If I am taking things out of context then anyone could point that out and disprove my words. It's easier to tell someone they're taking something out of context without actually showing them how they're taking it out of context...

reply to post by noobfun


I see where you are coming from you don't realize you could be wrong.

Its OK no one really cares anyway, and the truth becomes self evident regardless of our beliefs.

What I'm saying is the truth is revealed to all of us sooner or latter in spite of our strongest efforts to prevent it from happening, that's why its called revelation...

For that reason there is nothing for us to argue about really, so I'm glad you disagree with me...

Originally posted by newday
I see where you are coming from you don't realize you could be wrong.

And do you, good sir, realize that you also could be wrong?
Oh the delicious hypocrisy...

reply to post by DarkSecret

["isn't it always predictable that bible lovers will conveniently go back to the bible to make their "told you so" point? "

So, if the Bible makes a prediction that comes to pass, are we to ignore it ?

" see catholic church vs condoms as a simple example"

I'm not Catholic

" in this case the church doesn't care what happens to the babies born to families that cant afford them"

Guess you've never been to a soup line or a homeless shelter supported by a hometown church.

"they just want to have more baptized members. just like a bank giving incentives for opening new accounts because they need it for their bottom line."

For large churches and tv evangelists, thats true, thats why I do not support them

"so it's quite obvious the bible will have those "told you so" fail-safes to prove its writers knew this "heresy" would happen, long before anyone thought of it."

Again, if the Bible makes a prediction that comes to pass, are we to ignore it ?

"same way as people now seeing doomsday scenarios"

Watch the news much ? Iran and the middle east (nukes], new strains of virii,various new astriods/comets. We are not going to be here forever.

"or that antichrist thing (which is never mentioned in the bible) or even that antichrist would be a muslim (a religion which did not exist at the time the bible was written)"

Better re-read your Bible.
(1)"Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time" (1 John 2:18).

(2)"Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son" (1 John 2:22).

(3)"For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist" (2 John 1:7).

Muslim ? Nobody knows

"the bible is part history book of the early human civilization, part moral code book for times long gone"

Good morals never go out of style.

"we're living in the 21st century and people should stop listening to talk radio and tv priests who make millions of their spin of things"]

reply to post by newday

I see where you are coming from you don't realize you could be wrong.

That's why we apply reason and logic to find the most likely truth, and given that science is a self-correcting method of knowledge building, it's logical to follow. I highly doubt the bible because science just tears it to pieces. I could be wrong, but it's unlikely.

Its OK no one really cares anyway, and the truth becomes self evident regardless of our beliefs.

What I'm saying is the truth is revealed to all of us sooner or latter in spite of our strongest efforts to prevent it from happening, that's why its called revelation...

Unless what you believe to be truth is not true, in which case there will not be 'revelation'.

For that reason there is nothing for us to argue about really, so I'm glad you disagree with me...

....okaaay. Not going to back up any statements then I guess. What a disappointment.

reply to post by Good Wolf


Good Wolf:

I don't believe that God intended the Bible to be used for a science book. However, there is a lot of history in between all those pages if one would like to view it that way.

I only logic I have is what is in my heart and I am afraid that will not be good enough for you and your friends. I just know that for over 30 years I have been having the most amazing relationship with someone (God) and it gets sweeter with each passing day.

It wouldn't do me any good to quote you Scriptures, because you would say something about them anyway. But to me, they mean so much. Do you know what it is like when you are all alone, very ill and may lose a leg? The darkness soon tries to take all the light out of your world, and then your mind tells you there is nothing to hope for, so why hope. Lucky for me my heart had not listened and fell to the darkness so there was hope. God never left me all those years. I couldn't get up but he came to me and it was the most beautiful time I've spent with him.

So yes, to me he is very real and just as I can't prove his exist to you, you as well will not be able to convince me otherwise.

It is so sad when a few people want to take something so beautiful and keep adding more knowledge that just proves their ignorance. There are so many who say......I've tried being a Christian before, went to church and all that stuff........Did you really GIVE YOUR HEART, GIVE YOUR SPIRIT, YOUR MIND, AND YOUR WHOLE BODY to him? Did you ask for the Holy Spirit to come into your life to HELP teach you what you didn't understand. Did you stay in fellowship with other believers? DID YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE ONE TRUE SON OF THE LIVING GOD AND THROUGH HIS DEATH YOU HAVE SALVATION?

I just know I want to talk with him everyday all day long. There is so much he teaches me and to laugh with him is just the most awesome thing in the world. And yes, to cry with him is the most awesome tears in the world. He loves us so much that he cries for us everyday. This Bible truly tells the Greatest Story Ever Told and of a love that never, never ends. WE CAN WALK AWAY FROM HIM, BUT HE WILL NEVER WALK AWAY FROM US! There is so much power in that little word "love."


Peace to you
Grandma

reply to post by Grandma

Good Wolf:

I don't believe that God intended the Bible to be used for a science book. However, there is a lot of history in between all those pages if one would like to view it that way.

I think I'd rather study history books for a lesson in history, not a mish-mash of history and fable.

I only logic I have is what is in my heart and I am afraid that will not be good enough for you and your friends.

That's not logic, it's emotion, it's impulse. Logic come from the mind, not the heart.

I just know that for over 30 years I have been having the most amazing relationship with someone (God) and it gets sweeter with each passing day.

Good for you, but I might point out that one can have fulfilling relationships with imaginary friends, too.

It wouldn't do me any good to quote you Scriptures, because you would say something about them anyway. But to me, they mean so much. Do you know what it is like when you are all alone, very ill and may lose a leg?

I know what it's like to be all alone and ill, not so much risking loosing a leg. I know what it's like to be engulfed in depression after a friend committed suicide.

The darkness soon tries to take all the light out of your world, and then your mind tells you there is nothing to hope for, so why hope. Lucky for me my heart had not listened and fell to the darkness so there was hope. God never left me all those years. I couldn't get up but he came to me and it was the most beautiful time I've spent with him.

I managed to fight my way out of depression with little but will power. The mind is an incredibly powerful thing.

So yes, to me he is very real and just as I can't prove his exist to you, you as well will not be able to convince me otherwise.

Not here to. The title and subject matter of this thread pertain to science and the bible. Those two are not harmonious, and that's what I'm here to discuss.

It is so sad when a few people want to take something so beautiful and keep adding more knowledge that just proves their ignorance. There are so many who say......I've tried being a Christian before, went to church and all that stuff........Did you really GIVE YOUR HEART, GIVE YOUR SPIRIT, YOUR MIND, AND YOUR WHOLE BODY to him? Did you ask for the Holy Spirit to come into your life to HELP teach you what you didn't understand. Did you stay in fellowship with other believers? DID YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE ONE TRUE SON OF THE LIVING GOD AND THROUGH HIS DEATH YOU HAVE SALVATION?

This is what is called a loaded question. I will tell you that this was me for around five years. I did everything you said and I'm not atheist. I know people who have done what you said for 40 years of their life and are now atheist. It doesn't matter what I would say to this you will ensure me that I am wrong. Kinda useless, huh?

I just know I want to talk with him everyday all day long. There is so much he teaches me and to laugh with him is just the most awesome thing in the world. And yes, to cry with him is the most awesome tears in the world. He loves us so much that he cries for us everyday. This Bible truly tells the Greatest Story Ever Told and of a love that never, never ends. WE CAN WALK AWAY FROM HIM, BUT HE WILL NEVER WALK AWAY FROM US! There is so much power in that little word "love."

Greatest story ever told? No argument here, however it's own merits make it out to be nothing but a tall-tale. I'm not going to take such a leap of faith [definition: belief without evidence] without some kinda merit that isn't so problematic. I'm not going to hand my mind over to an old book. Thanks but no thanks, I'm going to remain a freethinker.

Originally posted by Grandma
I just know that for over 30 years I have been having the most amazing relationship with someone (God) and it gets sweeter with each passing day.

That's great. You have no reason to be an atheist then, and I would never try to convert you and hope that no one else would.

Originally posted by Grandma
So yes, to me he is very real and just as I can't prove his exist to you, you as well will not be able to convince me otherwise.

Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

That's what it's all about.

Originally posted by Grandma
It is so sad when a few people want to take something so beautiful and keep adding more knowledge that just proves their ignorance.

I wouldn't say that. Everyone wants to understand the universe and the world we live in. You have God, so you don't need any explanation. For atheists, that quest for knowledge is not ended, so we are constantly seeking the truth.

Originally posted by Grandma
There are so many who say......I've tried being a Christian before, went to church and all that stuff........Did you really GIVE YOUR HEART, GIVE YOUR SPIRIT, YOUR MIND, AND YOUR WHOLE BODY to him? Did you ask for the Holy Spirit to come into your life to HELP teach you what you didn't understand. Did you stay in fellowship with other believers? DID YOU BELIEVE THAT JESUS IS THE ONE TRUE SON OF THE LIVING GOD AND THROUGH HIS DEATH YOU HAVE SALVATION?

I can't speak for others, but I did...
It didn't work out .
I think many atheists were once devout Christians - I know several people like this.