Evidence in Scripture disproving god once and for all

Your questions about God creating an object so heavy that he can not lift it are examples of incomplete or faulty questions when viewed from the perspective of a God.

For instance, consider a two-dimensional Universe such as Flatland.

A Flatlander might ask 'Can God make a wall so thick that he can not see through it?'.

Of course since a Flatlander does not have an 'UP' dimension, they ask a faulty question. Their 'God' wouldn't need to see through a wall which is only two-dimensional.

To a 7th Dimensional Being or a God (to us) there is no logical concept of an 'object so heavy' since those beings would not be bound by three-dimensional concepts such as 'heaviness' as we know it.

If god is Omnipotent, can he make an object so heavy he cannot lift it himself?

Omnipotent does not mean that God can do anything. Omnipotence describes the amount of God's power. All powerful. Power is the ability to effect change - to make something happen. God can do whatever is possible to be done. God cannot do that which is actually impossible. This is because true impossibility is not based on the amount of power applied, it is based on what is possible. The actually impossible is not made possible by power.

This question is a contradiction before an answer is ever attempted. God cannot do what is not actually possible to be done, like creating a two-sided triangle. Just because words can be strung together does not make the contradictions possible. It's just a really silly question that the logically challenged find clever.

Originally posted by moonwize
Just ran upon this thread!!! Very interesting topic and has displayed some very unusual comments. Touchy at times. When you thread upon some one's faith, it will definitely hit a nerve. This world is very chaotic and our faith in our Creator to make everything right in the end is our hope and we want to be part of the (happy ever after story.) Which I am for also.
I, too, have found many puzzling verses in the Bible, and maybe some of you
explain this..Gen. 4, verse 22..king James....And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take of the tree of life, and eat, and live forever: One of US, Who is US? And why be afraid that man would get access to that knowledge? It appears that God and the Us were discussing this dilema of man being able to become immortal as They. This possibility was not an option, in verse 23 ..Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, In verse 24..after he drove the man out, he made sure the humans couldn't get back in.!! Some pretty impressive measures taken, Cherubims, with a flaming sword, blocking every way back to the tree of life!!! Just thinking!!

I can answer these for you.

To be like god knowing both good and evil. This means you will gain understanding and knowledge. How do you understand the difference between hot and cold? Only be experiencing both of them can you understand what they are.

God is pure consciousness on a level we can not imagine. God is inside each and everyone of us. He is your consciousness. That state of "I AM". I think, therefore I AM. Thus why your body is referred to as a temple of god. You are not your body. You are not of the physical world(action/reaction).

You are put on the earth and removed from the garden NOT as punishment. You have been removed to protect the tree of life. You have been removed to protect those who do not do evil and break commandments.

The only way back is to get beyond both good and evil. To understand why the commandments are there, why it is bad to break then, and then for no reason to ever break them. Because if you are allowed into heaven, while doing what you were removed from in the first place. Only by follow the laws of god can you get back.

When you understand that god is inside each of us, then you understand why the commandments are sins against god. It says they are sins AGAINST god. Not just things god doesn't want you to do. Because when you do those things to another person, then you have done so to god. That which is known as I AM. Suddenly, the reasons for the commandments makes sense. It's not just a bunch of mind control. Love thy neighbor as thyself makes sense. Do not kill, steal and murder makes sense. Even why you do not commit adultery makes sense, because you are then lieing and cheating on god.

Jesus was the example of how someone lives without sin. Jesus shows brings you understanding of the laws - where as before him they did not understand. From his example you can see what it means to live without sin. God loved the world, that he left heaven to come down here and face persecution just to show you this example. So that through that example, you might see and follow the path and return home.

The church are the pharisees who persecuted Jesus. They do not know Jesus, do not follow or understand what he said or did. As Jesus says - do as they say(do not sin) but do not do as they do(sin). Do as Jesus does.

This is also not limited to just "christians" and Jesus. Jesus is god. Each culture is given these understandings, and god will appear to those who truly see the evil in this world, are not pleased and look for answers. Jesus even says so. It is those from each culture who do not understand, focus only on the idol that fight and war(sin). Those who have understanding can see how the religions in the end teach the same basic message. There is no need for a 1 world religion Christians seek.

You can think of this reality as a school.

reply to post by nj2day


This is a great post. I wish i would have gotten involved sooner. I believe, like the religion at question, this topic now has too many fasits for me to constructivly comment on. Thank you to the OP for the logic you have addressed, I see it as well thought out and informative, as well as all the other posters, mainly on the first two pages. I do though have a few questions to add. I hope they do not de-rail this thread to be something it was not intended to be.

If the "god" we are speaking about is all loving and represents "free will" why is it that all humans are not created equal at birth to be givin an oppertunity witch represents a even path to salvation? ie. residents of a region plagued with genocide and famine. Is it because they possibly dont believe in the "god" in witch we are speaking? I would deduct from this that "god" has not created all of his children in a light that represents his all-loving stature. Why would this "god" have his children suffer if it is nearly impossible to live in a ritecheous world? ie. the "ghetto". Would "god" choose to doll out these predetermined paths as a way of testing people, although the test may be harder for some based upon outside influence? I understand that the "path to salvation" is a personal one, but would this mean the best way to salvation would be isoalationism? With that said, as an isoalationast how would you discover the word of this so called "god" to be able to ride his word of ritecheousness?

Originally posted by jaamaan
Ok here is my logical argument against the OP

If god is omnipotend he can do things that are impossible, like failing and not failing at the same time

He should be able to do things that defy all logic if omnipotend right ?

Very true, which is why we can never know 100%. However, I could say the same about any creature I happen to make up. We are humans, and as humans, we were either created or evolved to think using reason and logic. Any God would know this, and would either have created us differently or made himself more apparent, that is unless he is evil. And also don't forget that humans ate from the tree of knowledge of good and evil so that we should know as 'they' do what true good and evil is. Either God is contradictory or he is evil, there are no other choices with the information we have - if indeed that information is correct.

I think it's also worth noting that the Bible is flawed no matter how much you deny it. It's very easy to find contradictions in the text. So then which verses do we believe (if not the ones we choose to, as most people do)?
And if 10% of the book is flawed, and we're asked to take 100% of it on faith, then we surely know that that investment is already lost. For all we know, 100% of it could be BS.
But ranting and raving aside, I think it's important for the individual to decide based on logic and not indoctrination.
I recommend The God Delusion to anyone who is willing to accept the truth about religion.

reply to post by Badge01


Could the argument be more effectively stated as a flatlander saying, "Could God create a wall infinitely thick?" I see your logic, but as I am a 3rd dimensional being, I guess I'll have to stick within my own realm of understanding (for now!). I just personally can't buy into the "we're too different to understand" I guess.

By the way, I like your avatar. Is she playing Supergirl soon or something? Buffy was one of my favorite shows

Trying to argue logically with illogical people usually doesn't work, but still a good post.

Any book, weather it be the Bible, or an encyclopedia Britanica is only going to be filled with writings of men. Even things considered to be factual true history or scientific fact are based upon most widely accepted belief. This belief doesn't always make something true. It only means it is the thing that a majority of people have come to agreement on. Compare any encyclopedia from the 1800s to one that is written today and you'd find thousands of differences.

This is the case with Christianity as well. The Bible was obviously written by men (all versions) The reason why it seems to have the power to defy logic, is merely because of the vast amounts of Christians. Truth is only what large amounts of people agree on.

Originally posted by badmedia

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
There is No religious/spiritual God.

Get over it.

There may be a universal or scientific creator but I promise you, it does not give two shizzzzzzzzzzzes about us.

We are not unique, we are not a masterpiece creation of some holy thing named God or Allah. We are just another species living in this very large & confusing universe.

Some argue "There HAS to be something out there!"

No, no there doesn't

Tell me, how in your limited perspective are you able to make such claims? That which you do not see is not to believed?

Because you have not experienced something, it does not exist, and it is impossible that someone else has experienced it?

Do we need to be "trained observers" before it can be real?

You just come into a thread you do not even have an opinion on, and make silly claims without anything even related to the topic. And I'll bet money you don't care for it when someone does it to things you find important.

A Catholic believes in God
A Muslim believes in Allah

who's god is the true god?

Neither. Mainly because they don't exist. Organized religion is very cult like, if you haven't noticed. There is No Religious God. It's called Mythology. I think we learned about it in 7th or 8th grade, maybe sooner

However, it is possible for a universal creator, but religion (as we SHOULD know) is plain silly. It's self destructive to our intelligence to think we HAVE to believe in something make believe because our parents taught us to or because we need some kind of hope in life.

How about You have hope in Yourself?

reply to post by Badge01


True, so then the question is why would a multideminsional god create beings who can in no way understand him (gender?) and then punish them for not understanding?
Sometimes the simplist questions are the most important.
I'm sure you've heard children asking their parents questions about God which they can not answer. I laugh and die a little bit inside each time I see this. That a child could stump the mind of an indoctrinated adult. A bit ironic isn't it?
Questions like:
1) If God is love and he's all powerful, why does he let us suffer?
2) If God is all powerful, why is he struggling with the Devil? The only answer could be because he chooses to. He chooses to unleash the Devil on us lowly humans to test how he made us? Makes no sense.
There are a dozen more questions that are just as hated by Christians, but I'll let it go at that.

Happy Thanksgiving

reply to post by nj2day


I just cringe when I read this type of reasoning as it shows how illogical your rational really is. It really is a rather poor excuse for a paradox. Of course omnipotence does not include the ability to do the logically impossible.

It's also just semantics as the author seems to be unaware of the reality of the situation. He is really asking that two objects are moved away from each other. I can do it just by doing a head stand with a pebble on my foot and extending my arms into a hand stand. Or, if there are only two objects in existance one the size of the sun and the other the size of our moon and are touching. If I separate them am I moving the smaller from the larger or move the larger from the smaller?

The remainder of you argument is just as illogical.

A friend of mine for decades has been delving into an area of physics that James Clerk Maxwell acknowledged, but has since been abandoned.

My friend can input X at one end, and 7000X appears at the other end. Forensic engineers can't see nor determine the how or why. They don't understand the operation, because it violates their concept of physics.

Their beliefs blind them to the mechanism. You can explain exactly what is happening, how this arrives, and why their meters don't detect the transfer. So it spooks them and they deny what they are actually measuring.

They see the input of X. They verify the output of 7000X, but since they cannot trace the target 7000X, they deny what actually can be measured.

If you deny the Creator, or His nature, it is usually not the nature of the Creator, but your own preconceptions of what you believe is possible and what is impossible. Just like these engineers.

You can't see what you don't want to see. You can't understand that which is beyond your understanding, and your refusal to try.

What is truth? That which is, and perceptions will allow you to see the truth as it is, or it won't. However, your limited perception is not the truth.

Originally posted by GorehoundLarry
A Catholic believes in God
A Muslim believes in Allah

who's god is the true god?

Neither. Mainly because they don't exist. Organized religion is very cult like, if you haven't noticed. There is No Religious God. It's called Mythology. I think we learned about it in 7th or 8th grade, maybe sooner

However, it is possible for a universal creator, but religion (as we SHOULD know) is plain silly. It's self destructive to our intelligence to think we HAVE to believe in something make believe because our parents taught us to or because we need some kind of hope in life.

How about You have hope in Yourself?

Every culture has it's own language and idols. The point is not to worship the idol, but the learn from the understandings they bring. These are not seperate gods as you say, there is only 1 god. What you are really doing is no different than how someone says "Tree" in english, and how someone says it in another language.

You say they do not exist, but you are blind and have only ever looked in that which you can see - externally. Just as most of the people you point at as evidence of them being wrong are blind and look externally.

The religions take advantage of the blind who do not see the truth, and then when someone says - "where's Jesus, I don't see him" - they hold up a cross and say - follow this. Because the only look externally. And then they use fear to keep them in line, and teach them not to question.

The only thing that is self destructive is allowing the ignorant/blind to decide a topic for you. You can see they are hypocrites and such, but then you judge it all based on that, rather than what you can understand. It would be like dismissing science because the way a 1st grader explained it to you didn't make sense.

Atheism is the position that anything that is not included in reality, or can not be proven does not exist. And then they point fingers at people for what? People who believe anything that is not included in the reality provided by the bible does not exist. Ignorance and arrogance on both sides. Pointing out the wrong in another doesn't make you right, most time it makes you a hypocrite.

Why do you think science ignores consciousness? Focuses only on the external and that which is action/reaction?





[edit on 27-11-2008 by badmedia]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
God can do whatever is possible to be done. God cannot do that which is actually impossible.

Sorry but you're wrong.

But Jesus looked at them and said, With men this is impossible, but all things are possible with God. - Matt. 19:26

He doesn't say 'all things are possible to God which are possible to human logic'.
That would be rather pointless...

But I suppose the God of the Old Testament was a bit weaker:

Judges 1:19 "And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron."

reply to post by TruthParadox


Your questions may be posed as such due to an incomplete understanding of what a higher dimensional being might be.

It is three-dimensional being who is 'creating' a concept of a god and then posing three-dimensional-based questions to define the god.

Though a higher Dimensional being might be able to control and oversee all the processes, they might not elect to do so, but normally just start a process and let that process take over control. It's hard to say. Does this make 'Nature' more powerful than 'God'. Not necessarily, given our limited understanding of higher order processes.

As far as 'caring' about the 'beings' that are created when a Universe is created, a higher Dimensional being might be 'able' to concern themselves with and be capable of seeing and reacting to every event down to the Planck length, they might not see the need to do so.

The point being, we are 3-D beings trying to form 'Ultimate' questions which are only 'ultimate' to us.

Having said that, I'm not a big believer in religions or supreme beings. I can just see parallels between a 2-D world and a 3-D world.

To a 2-D being, we are complete 'Gods'. We are invisible, we are heard and not seen, we can see all (by looking "down"), we can know the contents of all their safes no matter how secure the locks, we can see what everyone ate for dinner all at once (again, by looking "down").

All of those concepts would be meaningless to a 2-D being.





[edit on 11/27/2008 by Badge01]

First of all I believe scripture was influenced by two factions that are fundamentally battling each other over dominion of humanity. Good "angel says this" Bad "angel says that!" I believe that is why there are so many opposing discrepancies in the bible. As in Genesis the Angel says "do not bow down to me for I am a slave like you."

reply to post by Badge01

Badge, it gets even worse. Physicists now can prove mathematically that eleven simultaneous parallel dimensions exist. Ten separate dimensions contained within large envelopes and they are all contained in the eleventh envelope.

What some of limited knowledge would ask is if God can make a rock too big to move, and they have such a limited amount of knowledge - that the question itself indicates a very limited understanding of the nature of our universe.

Earlier, I asked, in what dimension? Probably didn't know what I was talking about, and I never got an answer.

Eleven simultaneous dimensions, and within those dimensions, there are simultaneous multiple universes.

This is such an illogical question, it doesn't even deserve consideration, much less an answer.


[edit on 27-11-2008 by dooper]

Originally posted by badmedia


Every culture has it's own language and idols. The point is not to worship the idol, but the learn from the understandings they bring. These are not seperate gods as you say, there is only 1 god. What you are really doing is no different than how someone says "Tree" in english, and how someone says it in another language.

You say they do not exist, but you are blind and have only ever looked in that which you can see - externally. Just as most of the people you point at as evidence of them being wrong are blind and look externally.

The religions take advantage of the blind who do not see the truth, and then when someone says - "where's Jesus, I don't see him" - they hold up a cross and say - follow this. Because the only look externally. And then they use fear to keep them in line, and teach them not to question.

The only thing that is self destructive is allowing the ignorant/blind to decide a topic for you. You can see they are hypocrites and such, but then you judge it all based on that, rather than what you can understand. It would be like dismissing science because the way a 1st grader explained it to you didn't make sense.

Atheism is the position that anything that is not included in reality, or can not be proven does not exist. And then they point fingers at people for what? People who believe anything that is not included in the reality provided by the bible does not exist. Ignorance and arrogance on both sides. Pointing out the wrong in another doesn't make you right, most time it makes you a hypocrite.

Why do you think science ignores consciousness? Focuses only on the external and that which is action/reaction?

[edit on 27-11-2008 by badmedia]

Way to get around that one.


If a 40 yr old said he believed in the Easter Bunny, what would you think?

The understandings from (false) idols are purely metaphorical & not to be taken literally. The bible is Very metaphorical and so extreme that if anyone Truly follows it, they indeed should be locked up and have the key thrown away.

Any Organized Religious Institution is defined as a Cult. There is No question about that. However, there is no convincing those who believe in their Higher False Idol. It's very difficult to make the blind see the light of reality and logic.

I'm not saying there is No higher creator of the universe, I am saying there is NO RELIGIOUS BEING RESPONSIBLE FOR US. The Christian God is a myth as long with any other God our species decides to worship.

There is life out there in the universe and possibly more intelligent than us. I doubt they're Christian or Muslim or Buddhist or even Jewish.

In fact, the idea of religion to life beings out there may just sound so ...insane...




[edit on 27-11-2008 by GorehoundLarry]

Originally posted by Bigwhammy

If god is Omnipotent, can he make an object so heavy he cannot lift it himself?

Omnipotent does not mean that God can do anything. Omnipotence describes the amount of God's power. All powerful. Power is the ability to effect change - to make something happen. God can do whatever is possible to be done. God cannot do that which is actually impossible. This is because true impossibility is not based on the amount of power applied, it is based on what is possible. The actually impossible is not made possible by power.

This question is a contradiction before an answer is ever attempted. God cannot do what is not actually possible to be done, like creating a two-sided triangle. Just because words can be strung together does not make the contradictions possible. It's just a really silly question that the logically challenged find clever.

Further to your point, let us also consider that god is perfect(Complete beyond practical or theoretical improvement) in every way (grace, wisdom, knowledge, etc).

If this is in fact true then God does not have free will. He will only ever have one perfect solution to everything. Would a perfect God ever make an object heavier than he can lift?

I also believe it was Albert Einstein who suggested that God had no choice in creating the universe.

Any thoughts?

So Badge try on a 12 dimensional being for awhile. Scripture does state that man cannot comprehend the nature of God.

The facts will not be known until one dies.

I died fourteen years ago and my spirit/soul interacted with two angels, who were spirit/soul individuals.

I experienced what I call spiritual vision. It was like my entire head was just one big eye and could see above me below me behind me and all around me simultaneously. And there was not one bit of confusion inside my head/thoughts that this was incomprehensible. It was a natural condition that I see all around simultanelusly and instantly and my spirit essence made perfect sense of what was happening.

I and these other two spirit beings could communicate instantly and with a tremendous (in physical terms) and infinite amount of information.

This experience did not alter my world view.

Though I sometimes regretted not going with them, I have resigned myself to the decisions made during that meeting fairly well I think.