Evidence in Scripture disproving god once and for all

First of all, I want to thank OP for providing interesting questions!

1) 'Can God create a object so big even He can't lift it?' is; yes and no.
Iasiah 40:26
"Raise YOUR eyes high up and see. Who has created these things? It is the One who is bringing forth the army of them even by number, all of whom he calls even by name. Due to the abundance of dynamic energy, he also being vigorous in power, not one is missing."

Dynamic energy is another way of saying God has the control of (is?)infinite energy. God is infinite. So he can create an infinitely large object, but also muster infinite power to lift it. Like someone said earlier, it is a matter of choice - there is no boundaries to God's powers. Also, Jesus is NOT God, so don't try to use those verses. They are different persons. Period.

2) Free Will:
Isaiah 46:9
"Remember the first things of a long time ago, that I am the Divine One and there is no other God, nor anyone like me;
10 the One telling from the beginning the finale, and from long ago the things that have not been done; the One saying, ‘My own counsel will stand, and everything that is my delight I shall do´"

Our future is constantly changing the way act, our decisions 'ripple' through time and affect ultimately things in our future. But God has the ability to see ALL of the possible futures of all possible combination of decisions we make or could make.
Think of a parade going through city streets like a snake. An observer standing in street level can only see the part of the parade he is looking at, just like we can only see the present (and remember the past), but cannot see further unless we move around(which, in time, we obviously can't). Then imagine God is in a helicopter, seeing the whole parade, from the beginning to the end. Same with time, God is outside of our space-time. But does that make our observation less true? No, we just have a limited view. Does God, seeing the whole parade, influence the actions of that parade? Of course not.

3) God can see our fate, but seeing the end result doesn't affect it. This is tied to to question of free will; God is the creator of all things and he has decided some ground rules (whether we like it or not). These rules are given in the Scripture, so we have the free choice of abiding by those rules, or not.
If you want the prize of everlasting life, you must be obedient. But God doesn't want mindless devotion, but service based on LOVE, and understanding. Like someone who is married, is loved by his spouse, which he/she does out of free will. If he/her was programmed to love someone, it wouldn't mean anything.
2 Corinthians 9:6,7
"But as to this, he that sows sparingly will also reap sparingly; and he that sows bountifully will also reap bountifully.
7 Let each one do just as he has resolved in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver."

4) God is not involved in childbirth, anyone who is born is bound under the same law. But, if the person doesn't know the Scriptures, he/she will not be held accountable, because not knowing something can't be a sin. The end is known by God, but the choices leading to that must be done individually. Also, we are not going to hell for sinning, the price of sin is death. We just stop existing, but we have a choice to live forever on Earth, after the End.

5) God could change anything, he could fix everything snapping his fingers, but he won't, because He makes no mistakes. Remember, Satan raised the question in Eden, why does GOD has the right to dictate what is wrong or right. So, God must now rebuke this, and in the eyes of whole creation, he must let Satan try to prove himself, that God is not almighty. The whole biblical history is Satan's futile attempt of thwarting God's plan, which will ultimately fail. God knows this, Satan knows this but he tries to deceive people not to abide by the rules, so he won't go down alone.


[edit on 27-11-2008 by Deadpan]

[edit on 27-11-2008 by Deadpan]

[edit on 27-11-2008 by Deadpan]

reply to post by AshleyD


So basically, God is not omnipotent? Or that word is used out of context?

But then, doesn't the Bible say those exact words? God is all knowing.

all knowing = omnipotent?

Im probably lost...Just trying to grasp it...

Today, God is indeed an observer of unfolding events, but by choice. He is in control, and always has been. He has let Satan lay down a minefield for the believers for the Final Battle of a spiritual war that has been raging since Eden.
We are all waging this war -
Ephesians 6:
14 Stand firm, therefore, with YOUR loins girded about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness,
15 and with YOUR feet shod with the equipment of the good news of peace. 16 Above all things, take up the large shield of faith, with which YOU will be able to quench all the wicked one’s burning missiles.
17 Also, accept the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the spirit, that is, God’s word,
18 while with every form of prayer and supplication YOU carry on prayer on every occasion in spirit. And to that end keep awake with all constancy and with supplication in behalf of all the holy ones,
19 also for me, that ability to speak may be given me with the opening of my mouth, with freeness of speech to make known the sacred secret of the good news,
20 for which I am acting as an ambassador in chains; that I may speak in connection with it with boldness as I ought to speak.

Is God all Knowing, Jesus once said, only the 'Father knows' meaning God has elements that don't reveal everything to him self in the Trinity. The Father knows everything but does not mean that knowledge its accessed all the time, that is my impression.

reply to post by nj2day


Reply to

1) Omnipotence means he has the power to do anything presumably in this existence or universe so possibly the answer is that God simply cannot create something so large that he has no power over it. This would mean that God is omnipotent and the failure to be able to do something which contradicts his omnipotence is nothing more than a play on words. Does therefore such inability to do something which is beyond being all powerful imply that he is not all powerful. The answer is simply no.


2) Free will: Knowing the future does not mean it must be set in stone. If God created the universe with some form of free will and enough information about the creation is it not possible he can calculate with reasonable or entire certainty the outcome of results. If you place a hungry mouse in large box and a piece of cheese in the box can you predict that the mouse will indeed find the cheese. Yes. Knowing the absolute likelyhood of this event in advance indicates that you can predict the future over this small sample of the universe and events. Having this information in advance based upon knowledge of the nature of the mouse, box, hunger and cheese does not mean that the event in no manner can alter although extraordinarily unlikely nor that the mouse is not exercising free will within a limited parameter of likely known choices. In this example, we can only perceive as humans so it would be impossible to know all possible choices of a mouse. If the mouse, however, were a computer with a set program that we understood that offered a parameter of choices based upon events and such could be calculated we could, of course, determine all scenarios in advance with enough information. If an entity such as God is sufficiently superior to us than such is thinkable that the future can be known without violating free will and application of the limited intellect of a human with obviously limited abilities by definition means that we may not be able to disprove this even by our best attempts as logical reasoning. Indeed to do so is a testament to our arrogance and ego. Much akin to Newtonian physicists claiming that Einsteins theories were bunk and made no logical sense or those of the greatest minds in history (just as smart as us biologically with ability to reason) who once reasoned the earth to be flat based upon all then known information and reasoning.

3) Hell: Knowing that a person might be doomed to hell before being born based upon enough info and giving another entity the ability to work things out in their life by their own free will does not diminish the value of such choices of such entity. In fact it is eminently fair and serves the value of free will. It does nothing to disprove God his omnipotence or free will.

4) Again, knowing the future based upon enough information and ability to reason greater than we humans can perceive does not mean that free will is still intact and an entity carrying it out (i.e. free will) is not exercising choices of their own the known outcomes of which can be predicted by God. Hence permitting such is not unfair as the created entity is simply making free choices the knowledge of the outcome of which does not violate free will.

5) Having knowledge of the future based upon enough information and superior ability to reason or engage in some other kind of rationale different than our known system of logic for this dimension in which we live does not mean that an entity is not able to change such outcome.

You cannot apply human logic in this dimension to the concepts of "Omnipotent and Omniscient" to a universe which even our scientists claim contains other dimensions we do not entirely understand which by even our definitions might involve other forms of logic. ARGUMENT DISPROVED. TRY AGAIN

I have to admit to being baffled by the intense debate on whether or not god exists. If god does not exists , then none of the debate matters and no matter what is proven by argument has any meaning or value at all. If god does exists, then likewise, whatever I "prove" is pointless. God is as god is if god exists and will unlikely be swayed to change his/her/its/their nature or existence on the basis of my arguments and beliefs.

And most ironically, this debate takes our attention away from the one question that may answer the debate on god's existence. That question is of course "Who am I?" And even the lack of an answer to that question answers much.

I apologize to all for I read only the first few pages.

Disproving God is all determined - I believe, by the filter one looks through! If Christianity is the filter then I would not blame anyone for having a problem with God and even the Bible.

Does it have to be so black and white? Most of us should know by now that the Bible has many, if not countless "issues!" If we rely on man and his interpretation we will fail every time. The Gods IMO are counting on this!

Does not defying ignorance apply on all levels? If we understand one way to be faulty, and even wrong, does that mean it exempts any other understanding? If one so-called reality turns out to be bogus, does that eliminate any other reality? Don't we allow for more leeway with science? We may want to apply the same principle with someone as abstract as God, because he gets about as abstract as anything can get.

Come on folks...put on your thinking caps, use some of those gray cells! Take on the challenge!

reply to post by nj2day

Omnipotent: All Powerful

Omniscience: Universal or Complete knowledge

It is interesting that you felt that you have it all locked in with your OP. But good arguments! Good thread! But I see fault with the reasoning.

How do you know that the two above points are factual with God? It is assumption that has been attached to God for millenia. But how accurate are these points when it comes to God? Another words: who taught us that these words definitely apply to God in their fullest meanings?

[edit on 27-11-2008 by MatrixProphet]

Originally posted by nj2day

1) If god is Omnipotent, can he make an object so heavy he cannot lift it himself?

I don't understand this statement.

Can you please elaborate on this? Thank you.

Originally posted by nj2day

1) If god is Omnipotent, can he make an object so heavy he cannot lift it himself?

I too do not understand this question? Are you trying to apply irrational human reasoning to a subject that requires far more depth? No where is it implied with logical thinking on; God being corporeal.

Thing is, the bible today isn't the real issue.

It's the people who follow it to the letter.

Those people are as bad as the Islamic fanatics in all their glory.

These days I can't take a trip into the city without a group of Christianity peddlers trying to convert me every time I get off the train.

With Christians, there is no in between & there is "NO" shades of gray. It is either black or it is white!!!

You can argue with a christian and prove him wrong on a matter and he will ignore it & recite a verse of the bible, as if to confirm he is right, even it that verse has nothing to do with the subject being discussed.

This is the problem I have with Christianity. They are arrogant, always right "even when they are wrong", and anyone who isn't a follower is going to hell.

I once told a Christian that I believe in a Higher power, be it God, the Powers that Be, the Universe, but I do not believe in the Bible. I was subjected to hours of speeches & reprimand, called a heathen and told that If I didn't convert to Christianity that I would "Go to Hell"..lol

It didn't matter how good and pure a life I led, it meant nothing if I didn't have a bible by my side at all times.

What a load of Crap!!!

Cant tell me that Christians are nothing more than sheep being led with no real free will of their own. Why do you think a priest calls his people "his Flock"...lol

Had to take time out to create an account just so i could respond to this. Sorry if I posted this in the wrong place. This was so well put how can anyone deny that man wrote the bible and created most of these religions. If they do deny it I think it is only because they are too embarrassed to admit they have been brainwashed. If we could set aside the ego we may actually progress.

Much of this makes some sense, but there is a flaw in your thinking. You claim that because God sits back and watches the world unfold at the hands of man and his free will, that he must not be all knowing and all powerful. This simply is a testament of God's own free will. Just because he has the power to do something, does not mean that he is going to do it. Such as answering prayers: he could certainly answer everyone's prayers and make them all happy, but he doesn't do this, because it interferes with free will. He put people on earth, and everyone has their own challenges and circumstances in life that will cause them to question their faith, if they have established faith in God. Life, and all of its disasters and challenges, comprises the test of God, to see if man will choose to follow him of their own will, rather than being forced to do so. If he were to fulfill all prayers asked of him, his existence would hence be proven and unarguable, and faith would not be existent (it would be a fact). He is all powerful, but chooses not to interfere with the world that he created because he wants to see how it all turns out with the free will of man.

Now, you can definitely say, "well if he is all knowing, then certainly he already knows how the world will turn out at the hands of man's free will, and also which individuals will choose to follow him and which will not, so his whole test is pointless because it reveals a result that he is already aware of." This is definitely a sound argument, and I can't say much to it other than maybe we are misinterpreting the passages in the BIble that claim that God is all knowing. Maybe in fact they simply meant to express his vast intelligence and wisdom, and the whole "all knowing" deal is simply some kind of hyperbole. I don't know. To me, considering what I've already stated, this would be the most logical explanation. It's possible that he is all-knowing with everthing that does not concern the free will of man.

or there is a plurality, a duality within us.

and the whole point of scripture is to make us aware of the duality within ourselves...

that there is an aspect of us that has all of the qualities of "GOD"

We take for granted that we know of the subconscious / unconscious processes....

it was a highly guarded secret once upon a time, and now we honestly do take this for granted, .... once it became known, this plurality within us also became the main target of disinformation and misleading education regarding the uses and ability of our unconscious processes.

each religion has their own take on these "phenomenon"

the Buddhist / Hindu etc.. have really taken the internal / meditation approach whereas Christianity / Muslims etc take a completely different approach and look externally and attempt to use prayer to change the outside, disregarding the inside (Jesus is the one who came to teach about that) ....

the real difference comes from where everyone thinks God is..

4 options

Inside
Outside
No where
Everywhere

then this enters the realm of physics, quantum physics to be exact.

The problem becomes the observer.

Originally posted by open_eyeballs
So basically, God is not omnipotent? Or that word is used out of context?

But then, doesn't the Bible say those exact words? God is all knowing.

all knowing = omnipotent?

Im probably lost...Just trying to grasp it...

Omnipotent: All powerful.
Omniscient: All knowing.

This doesn't really prove that God/Gods do not exist,it just proves that our knowledge is highly flawed.

As humans we project our thoughts and ideas onto others,more so when their is little information to go on.Therefore we see the Divine the way we want to see it,not as it actually is.


Also,omniscience,for example,is not easy to define.

Foreknowledge and its compatibility with free will has been a debated topic by theists and philosophers.The argument that divine foreknowledge is not compatible with free will is known as theological fatalism.If man is truly free to choose between different alternatives,it is very difficult to understand how God could know in advance which way he will choose.

en.wikipedia.org...

reply to post by Ironclad


Totally agree with most of what you said. I also would say that I don't like it when a person wears their religion like a badge - nor their atheism! I find a lot of both on ATS.

Both are extremes to me. What if the truth stands somewhere in-between? Ahh, what a concept. This is where I am interested in real debate and not over guessing or...only looking at 2 options! Quite narrow, IMO.

I find that the Bible is at the very crux of this debate and in our whole belief system. Only I think we are only now getting to the real meat of it, and not the very biased religious one.

reply to post by jakyll

This doesn't really prove that God/Gods do not exist,it just proves that our knowledge is highly flawed.

Thank you!

Where we make the constant mistake is applying our irrational human, very limited thinking, to a highly evolved entity. He plain and simply can do whatever the hell he wants to! We need to honestly get that down!

He can choose to play innocent - he can choose to be involved, he can choose to turn away! That is why we need to question those two words and their meaning when attempting to apply them to God.

If we even hope to have an elementary understanding of him we need to leave the filters behind and think deeper and smarter! AND not fall into any of the preset traps!

reply to post by mortalengine
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All those names are for the same being.

It's a basic understanding among Jews and Christians actually. Each name is an attribute, like God of Peace or "Jehovah Shalom" etc..

Everything the Great "I AM" has done he has done out of love. Even his wrath and or slayings we see in the old testament. Yes he has the Jewish people slay beings. However the beings killed 99% of the time were in one way or another blood relatives to Fallen Angels or some sort of DNA "meddling".

They were polluting the human bloodline and they still seem to be up to something. I believe they are posing as Aliens and we are all falling for it hook line and sinker. Well they are Aliens sorta.

Anyway they are trying to create an fully Angel and fully Human creature. Trying to get rights to eternal life back that they lost ages and ages ago..

Originally posted by Good Wolf
The other thing is that if we look at the bible and find evidence to support our belief, then it's pretty useless. It's completely subjective and as such is no objective 'guide' to truth.

You see Lucid a big problem with this recurring argument, whether it be the subjective interpretation of scripture by individuals or the collective subjective writing/editing/collating of the Scriptures you fail to see that for many Christians who are Catholic, like myself, there is an objective truth in Scripture and its interpretation by the Church.

This guarantee is given by Christ to the Church in the following verses (and others):
Matthew 16:18-19 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it. And I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”
Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them.”
John 14:26 "But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."
John 20:22-23 "And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

These are just a few examples. The interpretation of Scripture by the Church is inerrant because it is done with the Holy Spirit. Our understanding of Scripture constantly evolves but there is nothing contradictory in that one truth.

Now you, perhaps (probably?), don't accept this, many Christians don't either but it is my guarantee that what the Church teaches and interprets in Scripture is truth.

Now many may through at me historical or contemporary examples of when the visible Church needed/needs reform, this does not damage my faith or what I have just said above. I would be so daring to say that the machinations of several immoral and unpleasant men in their Church "careers" is further proof to me of the infallability of the Church which, despite all those machinations, has survived and indeed flourished as the Mystical Body of Christ on Earth.

This is not my faith or my belief this is the faith of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church from whose Tradition and Magesterium I often quote. It really is very liberating.