Evidence in Scripture disproving god once and for all

Now to answer your second question.

2) Free will: If god is Omniscient, than he knows your future. If he knows your future, than it is already set in stone (if your future changed, god would cease to be omniscient). Therefore Free will cannot exist... Which can't be true, since the bible is the infallible word of god, and says we are created free.

Foreknowledge does not imply control. For example, I know in advance that Christmas is going to be on Dec 25. I have no control over that event.

Man is free to do what he wants. God knows what he will do because He knows everything.

The Bible will not give proof either way. It was written by many people over thousands of years. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that God wrote it; the authors are usually listed; this is just an assumption or tradition. There are different versions of the Bible with different books, by Jews, Catholics and Protestants. Fundamentalists and Atheists are very much alike; they believe all questions have been answered and they have all of the answers. For a more intelligent view of proof of God, look to the research showing that Spirtual beliefs in general are genetically built in from the time proto-humans evolved from ape-like animals (see October 2004 issue of Time magazine, "The God Gene"). In short, odd as it may sound, for evidence of Gods existence you need to go to Evolutionary science (admittingly, scientists who discovered this were Agnostic and tried to come up with alternative explanations, although they didn't come up with anything that was plausible). None of what I just wrote contradicts Christianity in my opinion unless you're a fundalmentalist, of course.

Answer to question 3:

3) If god is all knowing, and all powerful, and the creator of all... than he must know who is doomed to hell before they are born. Knowing who is destined for hell, how can he offer a free pass to heaven by believing in Jesus? Surely he knew what you would decide before you were given the option. Therefore, choosing to believe or not to believe is not your choice, but is predestined before you were born. Your ticket has already been written, so don't sweat it... right?

Your ticket is known, but not written in stone. For example, if I go on a road trip, I have several routes to choose. If I take Route 1, it follows that there are only so many exits from that route to another route. God knows the routes, and He knows the inclination of the individuals because He knows his children, just as you know your children, only a lot better.

No one is destined for Hell. The price for forgiveness is paid. You will have the opportunity in this life and the next to change your opinion of God. This is why He went to preach to the spirits in prison (hell) after the crucifixion. It is an old sectarian notion that your choices are finished in this life. That is obviously not true, for we have the fall of Satan from heaven as an example. I strongly doubt there will be anyone choosing hell over heaven.

Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by nj2day

 

I guess this is all just outside of our human understanding, who are we to question God?

If God is our "heavenly" father, then we have every right to question Him. Just like any kid can ask his dad questions or complain or tell dad anything he wants. One day I put the Bible down and just decided to let my creator speak to me in His way. The scriptures are too full of contradictions, misinterpretations and mis prints, that I couldn't stand it another day. I've been a believer for 50 + years. I let go of it! I believe my creator is not the "god" spoken of in the scriptures. There is no trinity. That is a false teaching. There is ONE God, ONE son, and ONE spirit. Period. ONE God. No other gods before him. Having been a fundamentalist in the past and trying to explain the trinity, was a joke. All you can say is "well, we don't understand it, but we will when we see God." That doesn't cut it for me. I want it spelled out very clearly. I don't want to be tricked or decieved and I'm tired of being detective. And, I do not believe in "hell" as a place of eternal torment. Hell is the grave. Period. The dead no nothing. On that day, their thoughts cease. Eternal punishment is death. Death occurs all the time, so death is eternal, it's always there. And I do not believe in a free will. And to me, it doesn't matter, because of my belief that hell is simply the grave to which I will rest.

Originally posted by rikk7111
In a way it does. See any Christian that Believes ,has tasted the Truth of the Bible, But those that believe not, have never done so. I thank you for your reply and respectfully disagree. I came not to argue with anyone, for most here will not change there beliefs because of a thread. We must all seek truth for what ever we believe it is.

It doesn't. It doesn't matter what the op's views are at this stage, they are not part of the thread, so anything about them are irrelevant. That is why you post had no bearing.

The other thing is that if we look at the bible and find evidence to support our belief, then it's pretty useless. It's completely subjective and as such is no objective 'guide' to truth.

The other thing is that some may have 'tasted' your view of things and later abandoned them. Many atheists on ATS have the same story, including myself.

Answer to the last, and final, question:

5) If god is Omniscient, knowing what will happen in the future, than he can not use his omnipotence to change the outcome... As he is powerless to change the outcome of future events, he is not Omnipotent.

Well, we know that it is incorrect to say that He "cannot" or is "powerless."

Let's see how He works it out:

We have "intercessory" prayer, where we are allowed to ask God to change events on our behalf. This is evident in, for example, The Lord's Prayer.

Therefore, if we know that God may intercede, your hypothesis is incorrect.

God knows the future and it's many possible routes of occurrence. That knowledge of the future can change in a nanosecond if a present condition is altered.

Originally posted by Good Wolf

Originally posted by rikk7111
In a way it does. See any Christian that Believes ,has tasted the Truth of the Bible, But those that believe not, have never done so. I thank you for your reply and respectfully disagree. I came not to argue with anyone, for most here will not change there beliefs because of a thread. We must all seek truth for what ever we believe it is.

It doesn't. It doesn't matter what the op's views are at this stage, they are not part of the thread, so anything about them are irrelevant. That is why you post had no bearing.

The other thing is that if we look at the bible and find evidence to support our belief, then it's pretty useless. It's completely subjective and as such is no objective 'guide' to truth.

The other thing is that some may have 'tasted' your view of things and later abandoned them. Many atheists on ATS have the same story, including myself.

Well, we do have our own opinions and I guess That's what makes free speech wonderful. Thanks for your time GoodWolf and have a wonderful day......May we all find Happiness and Truth.

reply to post by rikk7111

May we all find Happiness and Truth.

...Sounds like a creepy cult farewell.

You too friend, you too.

nj2day,

I hate to say this but your arguments are childish; using circular logic to prove or disprove anything is evidence that your arguments are not well thought out or developed.

you make the assumption from three scriptures that God is limited by his powers. Your argument of free will is that because God has the ability to know all things that he then MUST know all things. Did you ever think that he can chose not to know or to not know all the details? He states he gave us free will but then he also states that he knows the outcome; what makes you think both are not possible?

Crap here is a poor example, but using your logic it must prove that I am Omniscience (please feel the sarcasm). I throw some bird seed on the ground knowing it will get eaten. I don't know who or when, but I know it will get eaten.

You can't take a piece or part of the bible without taking the whole thing. Read the rest of it and you will find understanding to what is meant by the scriptures you quoted.

mmmm... so if i dont goto church(a building).... or worship on sunday... or choose to question the bible and god....and i choose to have a personal relationship with god and not try and force anything on others.... does that make me unCHRISTIAN???????

reply to post by nj2day


A star for you. Yup, a biblical god that fits all those definitions is a logical impossibility. What about some other type of god though? some kind of new-age feelgoodery energy thing that makes us all one and that is the same as nothing at all...what about god in the Buddhist sense?

And what about a statement like "This statement is not true"

Does that statement not exist just because it's a logical mess?

Seriously though, good thread.

-rrr

The way Earth and Heaven works in my understanding of the Bible is like a letter being sent, if you are not a Christian yet your letter has not been sent yet, but God in his own realms have recieved the letters already but has not openned them yet.
Maybe the pile of letters grow as high as a mountain and sometimes not so high as each day passes, but there is enough time to lets say send your post. Time and Space in Heaven may not be the same as earths and Time and space comes full circle. But that circle can grow or has been predestined in God's eyes but in ours it has not happenned yet and we can decide to send that letter of faith before Time runs out. In the end God is probably building a bigger family than the family already ruined at the start of time through the Devil's deception bringing more salvation and people into to the Heaven than ever, this before the postman makes his last round. One way to look at it in a metaphorical way.

Originally posted by nj2day
2) Free will: If god is Omniscient, than he knows your future. If he knows your future, than it is already set in stone (if your future changed, god would cease to be omniscient). Therefore Free will cannot exist... Which can't be true, since the bible is the infallible word of god, and says we are created free.

I think this is sort of flawed.
If God knows the future, then it is not necessarily set in stone. Who says that if your future changes God doesn't see the ''new'' future?

[edit on 27/11/08 by -0mega-]

Originally posted by Jim Scott
Now to answer your second question.

2) Free will: If god is Omniscient, than he knows your future. If he knows your future, than it is already set in stone (if your future changed, god would cease to be omniscient). Therefore Free will cannot exist... Which can't be true, since the bible is the infallible word of god, and says we are created free.

Foreknowledge does not imply control. For example, I know in advance that Christmas is going to be on Dec 25. I have no control over that event.

Man is free to do what he wants. God knows what he will do because He knows everything.

So then whats the point if God knows what you will become, then we have no choice as to the path we take!!

It if already written and mapped out for us. All anyone can do is go with the flow. If my destiny is to become an Evil Mass Murdering Dictator then I cannot change this can I?

Therefore I have no Free will to actually become a Good Caring Loving Person who wins the Nobel Peace Prize, even if this is what I want..lol

God has no Power!! God is untrue!! The Universe takes care of us all, but there is no Old guy with a long flowing white beard, sitting on a throne of light in the sky....."What a primitive concept"!

reply to post by Jim Scott


Good Form jim Scott. I mostly agree with what your saying. Of course with some differences. And to the poster, must who try to disprove the bible or make contritdictions in it often pull one bible verse and form the theory behind it. But you can not do that, would you just open a math book to the middle and read one part and expect to understand it? You have to look at all the whole. For example you use Ephesians 1:11 completly wrong. If you just read the verse's the precede it you will find that its not saying we are each predestined. Its saying that "Man" as a whole was/is destined to serve god. I dont have the time right now to comment further...but ill be back.

reply to post by mortalengine

Sorry, I thought Dancing was a given.
/grins

Oh geez, not another one these bogus threads again.

I saw your "points" in your OP, you are trying to confine God into a carnal human box, basically you are a finite, temporary being trying to understand the infinite, it's about like an ant trying to understand how a human works or what a human is, all the ant sees is the feet of the human, but the human is much greater/bigger than that.

God is not restrained by your ideas of what YOU think He's confined to.

God is beyond our understanding.

-Lahara

reply to post by badmedia


You say the path to 'heaven' is through the commandments.

But didn't Jesus say all you have to do is believe he is the son of God?

Isn't that what Christianity is all about?

Not what you do, but who you belive in?

reply to post by TheRandom1


The OP is talking about God of the Bible. I dont believe he said he knew or understood God. I believe he is pointing out that the "box" the Bible has created for God is contradictary and can not be the truth.

And if the Bible is not the truth then Christianity along with Judaism are null...

before monotheism there was polytheism, actually this is not completely true since sun worship was a singular deity.

Before christianity there was:

Sumerian religion
Pagan religion
Greek religion
Roman religion
Norse religion

and this was all AFTER the earth was created and Eden, so why didn't we believe in god from the START?

OH OH! and Jeudism PREDATES Christianity as well.

Christianity and the bible...

You just got PWNED.