Did Gnosticism try and Usurp Christianity or is it the Real Message of Christ.

reply to post by Grandma



The issue at hand is this.

How can it be that my spirit sings to a song with Thee and another spirits sings a song with Thee but they are too different harmonies? I think we should be careful to say 'I know truth' because that truth is only truth for that person, it is not necessarily truth for all.

The bottom base is still love. True love is not defiled, used, gratified, held above or taken advantage of. If its true love for all in the heart...then what ever brought that person to find this way is a way for them, truly.

To think Christ's ways would be so confusing, so 'not for sure' leaving so many souls to interpret his life in different ways. I think its obvious that there are many ways to understand the united purpose of our being and that we are more then what is given credit for.

Some say we are worthy. Some say we are not.
Some say you must come through Christ. Some say we are already Gods children.
Some say there is one kingdom. Some say there are many.
Some say there is only one way to understand. Some say understanding all the ways is the only way.

Its pretty grey colored if you ask me. Far from simply put.

My Best,
LV

Originally posted by Supercertari

Christianity, the Church, has a martyrology which is full of those who knew they would get killed if they practiced their faith openly, so, they did. From the earliest days of the Church to Iraq today.
Many Gnostic sects quite enjoyed hitting themselves with sticks in response to their Manichaean tendencies (described in some posts here) that seeks to distinguish two creative forces, one for the material, one for the spiritual. Actions not of “self-mortification” in intent but of rejection of the flesh, one of many contradictions of the Incarnation proposed by Gnosticism.

Early Christians of all sorts were martyrs, "orthodox" and those of gnostic tendency. Once the orthodox Christians gained power, then they started attacking other groups including gnostic Christians. Martyrdom from my studies has never been a huge part of gnosticism probably due to the fact that for most Gnostics, the death of Jesus wasn't his main importance (again, some gnostics) but his teachings when he was alive. Gnostics wanted to mimic his life, martyrs wanted to mimic his death. I haven't personally heard a lot about gnostic "hitting with sticks" but some gnostics were very acetic and others I've read were quite indulgent.

It's actually pretty difficult to pin down what a "gnostic" is because there is so much variation. I'm not sure what you're saying about rejection of the flesh and what that has to do with incarnation, there isn't a contradiction if you read on the gnostic cosmology.

[edit on 22-11-2008 by ghaleon12]

reply to post by Supercertari


Individual people make up the body of Christ, which he is the head of. He picks and chooses his members - not the church. He turns no one away and those the Father gives him he won't lose. His commands are simple: "'FOLLOW ME!' "

They do not follow the complete teachings and that is why the vineyard is only leased to them until the fullness of the Gentiles come in.

Edit: because my zeal is starting to show.





[edit on 22-11-2008 by Myrtales Instinct]

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
So why doesn't your "Holy Church" teach the Bridal Chamber rite? This is the act of consumation of marriage to God - it is the proof that takes the believer from faith to knowing ...

The "Bridal Chamber Rite" is a corruption of the ancient and continuing expression of the spousal nature of the union of God and His people. This has been "gnosticised" by making it particular to the individual knower and thus fails to appreciate the moment of consumation of the bond between God and all humanity in the sacrifice of Calvary, to which we are invited to be continually present in the Eucharist.
I don't call the Church "She" or "Holy Mother" to be archaic, but because the Church is the bride of Christ Her Bridegroom who has given Himself fully to her. Reference to the Song of Songs and Hosea show the ancient, and divinely inspired, origins of this symbolism. Saint Paul explicitly applies the imagery of marriage to Christ and His Church in Ephesians 5. The imagery is brought to a most excellent level by St John of the Cross in his poetry "The Spiritual Canticle" being the finest example: www.karmel.at...

36. Let us rejoice, Beloved,
and let us go forth to behold ourselves in your beauty,
to the mountain and to the hill,
to where the pure water flows,
and further, deep into the thicket...

A very recent expression of this imagery is to be found in Pope Benedict XVI's Sacramentum Caritatis para. 27 (2007) www.vatican.va... e_Sacraments where he says:

The Eucharist, as the sacrament of charity, has a particular relationship with the love of man and woman united in marriage. A deeper understanding of this relationship is needed at the present time. "The Eucharist is the sacrament of our redemption. It is the sacrament of the Bridegroom and of the Bride." Moreover, "the entire Christian life bears the mark of the spousal love of Christ and the Church. Already Baptism, the entry into the People of God, is a nuptial mystery; it is so to speak the nuptial bath which precedes the wedding feast, the Eucharist."... Indeed, in the theology of Saint Paul, conjugal love is a sacramental sign of Christ's love for his Church, a love culminating in the Cross, the expression of his "marriage" with humanity and at the same time the origin and heart of the Eucharist.

reply to post by LeoVirgo


Your are right I should have not used the term know I think what I was trying to say was that weather or not you are a Christian or gnostic we all come to the Father out of love. We do have some differences of opinon here I agree but again, does that CHANGE the fact that Jesus was the light into this would of darkness. He showed us the way home. I am such a small creature that he should even be mindful of me......but he says he knew me when I was in my mother's womb and that he knows the number of hairs on my head. So I take that to MEAN HE REALLY KNOWS ME. Isn't that the most amazing thing!!!! What love from heaven he has bestowed upon all of us on this dark, dark world. He truly is the Truth and the Light. He takes us be the hand and gently leads us into the heavenly realm where mysteries are told and secrets are given. Ii is the most humbling and heartfelt offering I give of myself to him is myself where our spirits become one.

It is truly a testament to all that we realize that our bodies are his temple and we were brought with a price.


Peace,
Grandma

Originally posted by Supercertari


The "Bridal Chamber Rite" is a corruption of the ancient and continuing expression of the spousal nature of the union of God and His people. This has been "gnosticised" by making it particular to the individual knower and thus fails to appreciate the moment of consumation of the bond between God and all humanity in the sacrifice of Calvary, to which we are invited to be continually present in the Eucharist.

Just because someone teaches it is corrupt doesn't necessarily make it so.

The eucharist is not the bridal chamber. When partaking in the eucharist, one is able to stand. In the bridal chamber you hit the floor face down.... like Daniel.

You've been misled. The question is was it deliberately or a lack of them not fully understanding.

reply to post by Grandma


*smiles* and sometimes we agree.

Your truth for your spirit is very very valid and is no less then a gem to you. To show your faith in your truth between you and Thee, you share yourself with others. This shows volumes and speaks more then words can say. This is what you taught me, to follow what makes your soul sing and soar and then go show others your song and your path of flight, for it might shine light to another. I think that is what we are all doing here, sharing our inner songs and our path of flight back home. Sharing my thoughts and in taking others through this thread has been a beautiful experience, I thank everyone.

I agree, Christ did bring light to the world of darkness.

LV

reply to post by Supercertari


Supercertan:

What a beautiful way of explaining the bride and the bridegroom and the bridal chamber. It is truly amazing. Is it not? God is such a God of wisdom. I can only pray that he will bestow a little of it on me.



In His Holy Name,
Grandma

reply to post by LeoVirgo




Yes, it has indeed been a wonderful thread to be able to come and reason together in the love of our Lord Jesus Christ. He truly is the light in this darkness and will shine though all who choose to follow his path.


Love ya,
Mom

reply to post by LeoVirgo


What a pleasure it is to read your words.

I think that perhaps we have much in common even though the routes that we have taken may differ. It is, as I understand it, that atop the mountain it can be seen that all paths lead to the peak.

May love and light always illuminate your path.

libby

reply to post by L.I.B.






And may love and light shine and bless yours also. This thread has shown me alot of things, Ive seen a deepness to humans that I often look for but dont find.

LV

reply to post by L.I.B.


Libby,

May The love of our savior Jesus Christ forever shine in you life and show the love of Christ to others as you have here.


Shalom,
Grandma

reply to post by LeoVirgo


My dear daughter,

May the light of your heart always shine so bright as it shines now. I have really felt very humbled by your spiritual growth and your wisdom but most of all your love and knowledge.


Love you,
Mom

reply to post by Grandma


It's just in the way I learned things. I am far from the normal person, I have been blessed my entire life, even though I only recently realized it. I have lived all over the US, I've played many parts. Been homeless, and now I'm pretty successful and live happy etc. Spent time in ghetto's around people in gangs, been shot at, was in the military, etc. Had a very unnormal life. Up and down, but somehow things just seemed to work out in the end, like barely, but perfectly to teach me a lesson.

I was actively seeking truth after 9/11. And it mostly started in politics. I see how people make claims of representing certain things, while in fact being the exact opposite. For example the federal reserve. Which if you look on those dollar bills feature presidents. Presidents who btw were completely against the entire function of the fed. I seen what a scam it was.

I had a vision, I will tell what it was. I was at a friends house on his porch, when suddenly it was like my consciousness was pulled within a blink of the eye. I was in a white room. Very white, like the matrix loading program kind of. In front of me(I had no body, just vision) was a body of sunlight. It was humanoid in form, but had no features, it was filled with golden type light. No sound was spoken, but it was said - do you want it to end? To which I replied without thinking - no there is still good out there. It wasn't me replying so much, as it was like me watching myself reply.

Thought I was crazy, but then I started gaining knowledge and understandings about many things. Dimensions, how time is an illusion. God is pure consciousness. The universe in the eyes of god is static, as it is all known at once. It is only our limited perception of reality that creates change and time. So, god creates man/life and his consciousness fills that being in a limited perception(being behind the veil). This is what gives you free will and the sense of being. Things of this nature, which I will be happy to go into deeper(and explain why Jesus calls it a path) if you want.

You said before he called you daughter. You said you believe god and Jesus are one. Yes, these are all true. However, you are also part of god. Your soul/consciousness is god. Jesus even says so - John 14:20 - "At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you". This is in the chapter that talks about when the truth is revealed to you. Love thy neighbor as thyself suddenly has a bit more reason behind it now doesn't it? Not just a do as I say kind of thing.

Now, when I had this vision I was never told the name Jesus or any name. I was just given understanding. I then see things like John 14:20 randomly here and there and I'm like - omg that is exactly right, I didn't know the bible said that. That was never told to me.

Jesus himself says later in John 14 - if you do not hear his words, and do what he says - you will hear the words of the father. And that the father will send the holy spirit to teach you and bring that which Jesus has said to you yet known(what you didn't know til then) into remembrance. And that is how I learned.

So why did Jesus have to die? Not as a sacrifice, but as an example to open the eyes of man. If he were to have fought back, he would have been breaking a commandment, and that is not going to happen. Because he followed the commandments as was meant to be to fulfill the law. This btw IMO is kept hidden because it blows the "just war" theory completely out of the water. There is no just reason to kill.

Jesus was god in the form of man on earth. Meaning, fully aware of the truth and following gods will to perfection. Man was shown how god acts on earth. Jesus says we can do even greater things than he did. When he died, it was the ultimate expression of the truth.

It's like a math equation. The variables change, but the equation remains the same. If you know 5+3=8, and you focus only on the variables, you will not be able to understand how someone is correct if they say 4+4=8, or 3+2=5. To focus merely on Jesus is to focus solely on a single variable of an equation where many images can be used. The truth is not held in the single variable, the truth is merely expressed through that variable. The truth is the equation that the variable expressed.

And on this earth, people focus on the variable instead of the equation. You have 1 side screaming at the top of their lungs 1+1=2!!!!! And then the other side is screaming 2+2=4!!!!. And they fight about it. If they actually understood why 1+1=2, and why 2+2=4, then they would see they are actually following the same understanding/equation. But as they are blind to the equation/truth, they end up being hypocrites towards one another. And then in a dualistic mindset, each side plays the evil for the other. Just as Christians play the evil for Islam, and Islam plays the evil for Christians.

Even though the man is right when he screams 1+1=2, and is telling a truth, he fails to understand.

The greatest thing I think Einstein ever said was this - Any fool can know, the point is to understand. Any fool can tell you E=MC2, or 1+1=2, but the point is to understand why. And then when you understand why, not only do you know 1+1=2, but you will also know 1+2=3, and so on.

In life, philosophy is how we express these equations. There is a logic and understanding behind the words of Jesus, not just an authority.

Sorry if I'm rambling, some things aren't so easy to put into words.

[edit on 22-11-2008 by badmedia]

reply to post by LeoVirgo


reply to post by Grandma


LV, Grandma,

It is a rare event for tears to brim these eyes from the kindness of others in this sort of venue, but you two have accomplished just that.

Thank you.

libby


I'm now inspired to go back and read the whole thread!

reply to post by badmedia


Thank you for sharing your experience and understanding badmedia. Much of it resonates with me.

I too feel we are all a part of God, Jesus was God, we are all God...but no one is God without all of the other variables. The equation only is understood with unity of all things that make God. (my ideas might differ a little, but I feel we are mostly on the same page).

We are worthy!! We are loved more then we can imagine. I too find God to be a consciousness...so truly, we were mere thoughts in the beginning (a true part of Thee). I find this understanding to be so very deep and innocent that the simple man often will over look it.

I loved your experience!! It helps me see that others feel this too.

LV

reply to post by L.I.B.




I too had tears of overwhelming joy, I too have read and re read.

I must sing a little-

This little light of mine
Im going to let it shine
This little light of mine
Im going to let it shine

LET IT SHINE LET IT SHINE LET IT SHINE

Im not afraid to be silly

Its been so real.........LV

Originally posted by LeoVirgo
reply to post by badmedia

 

Thank you for sharing your experience and understanding badmedia. Much of it resonates with me.

I too feel we are all a part of God, Jesus was God, we are all God...but no one is God without all of the other variables. The equation only is understood with unity of all things that make God. (my ideas might differ a little, but I feel we are mostly on the same page).

We are worthy!! We are loved more then we can imagine. I too find God to be a consciousness...so truly, we were mere thoughts in the beginning (a true part of Thee). I find this understanding to be so very deep and innocent that the simple man often will over look it.

I loved your experience!! It helps me see that others feel this too.

LV

Right after my experience, the first words out of my mouth were - I am god, and I am arguing with myself. Which means, we are all god in part, but none of us has the full consciousness. Not that I, and only I, am god. This is what John 14:20 says as well, and that was the quote that got me to look at the bible more.

Kind of the "God" and "god" difference. It's a matter of how large the consciousness. God = huge all knowing consciousness, the sum of all consciousness and more than we can imagine. Me and you = a unique and subjective consciousness on a much small level. This is where humility comes in - understanding that you are god, but also that your neighbor is as well. Not putting your will over the will of another.

We are all connected and one, and it is the veil which keeps us separate. God is the only observer, the only consciousness.

I don't even know if it's really something you can explain to someone and they believe you. I would have never believed that until I experienced and felt it myself. I think that is what people mean when they say you can't understand the bible without having the holy spirit. Because I read the bible before, and it was nonsense. Now when I read it, I understand what is being taught.

Each and everyone of us has our own unique perspective. Each limited in it's own way, and our experiences are totally unique. We understand things in our own way, in our own time. So to me it makes sense that peoples way of expressing these things is also unique.

reply to post by badmedia



Thanks for the further insight...Ive been reading your other posts on other threads. Its so nice to read others thoughts that are similar to my own. You have posted some very interesting things in other threads, enjoying it very much.

My best,
LV

I never obtained my Gnostic-style belief from any Gnostic texts. It's always been more vague than all this complicated Jesus-infused stuff. It's really even hard to put into words "what I believe" as a dogma. But I can relate somewhat one thing about it-if I am looking for something, and I have a good intention (I've tried this for negative purposes, didn't work) I kind of quiet the mind and this feminine presence will take over my body (if I let it) and show it to me. This doesn't cover only material things, but knowledge as well. It only occurs right when I am on the edge of finding the thing/knowledge, not like I'm under automation very far in advance.