Real Contrail Science, why they persist and why they spread out and why they are not chemtrails

Some guy in that other thread put me on ignore because I asked for soil and water samples that prove heavy chemical spraying is done. They pop up borium and aluminum found in samples as 'proof,' which I find laughable.

If there was heavy spraying of chemicals (at least as much as people claim is done), especially over heavy populated areas, water and soil samples would find them. There is extensive testing done all the time by commerical companies for hazardous materials in the water and soil. And large amounts of deadly chemicals are NOT found. That alone tells me this entire chemtrail theory is nonsense.

Of course some samples will find hazardous materials. Prior to the last 10 years, disposal of hazardous materials was slipshop, and regulations put into place were largely ignored. No longer. They are followed and companies heavily fined. So they are testing water and soil constantly. I work for a company that does this.

They do NOT find borium or aluminum or anything else in constant amounts in all soil and water samples, as they would, if mass spraying were taking place. Supposedly enough chemicals are sprayed to cover entire cities.. it creates a 'haze' or a cloud. Which means there would be plenty in the soil and water. But it's simply not there.

Also, as someone pointed out (and I pointed out in the other thread), spraying from high alititudes would be a terrible way to poison us. Even from a lower altitude, as much as 90 to 95% of chemicals dumped on crops and fields end up somewhere else. They have to dump a lot, because it's so ineffective.

And in fact, those pesticides are easily found in samples. They know them, and they find them in streams, lakes, water supplies, and in the soil. And if larger amounts of chemicals were dumped on cities, these would be found. They are not. And instead of explaining to me why not (I honestly want to know if there is some chemtrail theory for this), some guy puts me on ignore. I don't think "deny ignorance" meant to ignore people to whom you could not answer questions.

reply to post by TruthTellist


Can you show me how my argument is childish, pathetic and entertaining? My argument is based solely on evidence. On studies of the phenomena at hand, the work of meteorologists, the experience of pilots, and of the mechanics of aerial dispersal of chemicals.

Your argument is based on gut feeling and no evidence.

Don't try to equate your position with mine, as yours is baseless, and mine is quite the opposite.

And the link is working - I just downloaded the PDF again. Here is the link once more: the PDF.

reply to post by Bumr055


Read the PDF. It has nothing to do with chemtrails - it is solely about contrails and aircraft-induced condensation. It addresses the science behind the different ways condensation can be caused by aircraft, how some turns into clouds and hangs around, and how some disappears. It also touches on the difference between old and new aircraft.

If you think you know about contrails but haven't read that PDF (or fully understand the phenomena it discusses), you are doing your argument a great disservice.

Originally posted by dave420
THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THEY EXIST. I can't believe I have to keep writing this.

I can't believe you keep writing it either...shouting even. Perhaps its part of your job description to keep on plugging your viewpoint. I bet your superiors are not getting their moneys worth on your results

You believers, who state these things are real, have yet to come up with any evidence.

Hard to provide evidence of SECRET operations. If there was hard evidence to present... it wouldn't be SECRET. Whether they exist or not, I find it hard to understand that skeptics miss the logic flaw in asking for proof of secret projects, when even possession of such material would get you a vacation to Gitmo

:shk:

I've provided a link to a PDF that explains how contrails are formed, and that single PDF explains away any claims you guys have. Why are you ignoring it?

No one is ignoring it, but we don't need proof to know that contrails exist. Their existence is not in question, so showing proof that contrails exist is a mute point. However it does NOT prove that Chemtrails don't exist

I'm arguing to try to help you. You are clearly ignorant about what contrails are and how they are formed, and I'm trying to save you from ignorance.

Hmmm I always wonder about the motives of those skeptics/debunkers that feel the almost pathological obsession to 'save us from our ignorance' Considering this is a site that talks about conspiracies and alternate view points, why do you feel you need to SAVE anyone from ignorance of YOUR version of reality? Perhaps in fact it is YOU who are ignorant of what is going on? But then no skeptic of the debunker class would ever admit that maybe just maybe they don't know everything.

Its funny you know... in my thread about the Lunar Orbiter tapes found in an abandoned McDonald's all the debunkers pounce on the thread and screamed fake and BS... without even taking a minute to check...

Now when its been proven to be real... seems they all vanished back under there rock in hiding. It does make for a nice quiet thread though



...---...

[edit on 18-11-2008 by zorgon]

This is great!


THANKS!


It's about time we got some REAL science to help deny the IGNORANCE surrounding this so-called conspiracy.

Originally posted by zorgon
Hard to provide evidence of SECRET operations. If there was hard evidence to present... it wouldn't be SECRET.

Not so SECRET if, as the enthusiasts say, one can simply look up and see them. In fact, see them being created by numerous aircraft. The claims seem to indicate hundreds, maybe thousands of aircraft are involved in this activity.

And collecting "hard evidence" in a dispute of this sort should be simple to the point of "duh"....

Chemical analysis of ground water; with evidence of some unusual substance literally everywhere? Soil samples showing the same contamination with identical substances?

Anything....anything not subject to the same convoluted, frothing interpretation that is presented over and over again on these forums as fact.

The skeptics left your thread about the "lost" tapes when it became apparent they weren't actually "lost." Just another case of your headline not matching up with the reality.

reply to post by zorgon


It's not a viewpoint, it's a statement of truth. No direct link has been found to suggest contrails contain any of these substances suggested. None. All we have is the most flimsy anecdotal evidence that chemtrails even could exist, let alone are. You have yet to show any evidence these things exist. The evidence the believers have shown so far is only of contrails, nothing else. The PDF I provided explains away all the "alarming" phenomenon the believers have claimed is proof of chemtrails. All of it.

Just because you don't agree with my point doesn't make it not the truth.

You don't need proof to believe in something? Then you are irrational, illogical, and incapable of an adult debate.

Your grasp of logic is non-existent. I guess you believe in Santa Claus, too, as what else could explain those presents you received as a child? I mean, some folks say he exists, and you had presents, to it must be him!

Get a grip! I try to help you guys out by showing how you've missed a few steps of rational investigation and leapt to a conclusion, and because I've touched the holiest of holy conspiracy theories, somehow I'm the bad guy. You really are acting like a kid - you are clinging to a belief without the slightest shred of evidence, and when evidence contrary to your belief is shown to you, you either ignore it or scream and shout about disinformation or lying.

It really is pathetic. Totally, 100% pathetic. How do you expect to learn anything if you don't know the difference between an opinion and a fact? See how it says 'deny ignorance' up there in the top left? Maybe you should start doing it.

Edit: If you can't even prove it to yourself, how do you know it exists? Looking up at contrails and saying "oh yeah - that's a chemtrail". The lack of logic in the believers' arguments is ridiculous. It's like a crazed cult of paranoia or something. So weird.

[edit on 18/11/08 by dave420]

reply to post by dave420


The only reason there is no evidence Dave420, is because you have refused to read any of it.

There are pages and pages and pages of documented fact, evidence, photos, studies and experiments.

The fact that you ignore all of it would, I guess in some fashion force your brain to believe there is none.

Look out Dave, a huge truck is coming right at you

"No it isn't"

It's right there - look out"

"Your lying and I am not looking. I don't hear it, I don't smell it and I am not looking, so I don't see it!"

||BAM||

Originally posted by zorgon
Now then...

A Question to Mr Oz the Weatherman...

What atmospheric conditions account for BLUE CONTRAILS?

Thanks

I'm no expert at all but that pic looks like the weather condition known as photoshop.

reply to post by arizonascott


No, there is no evidence. Photos of contrails are not evidence of chemtrails. Soil analysis is not evidence of chemtrails. A plane flying over followed by rain with stuff in it is not evidence of chemtrails. It might be to illogical people, but to science, it's not evidence.

I've not ignored it - I've read it all, and I can see that it's not demonstrating anything at all about chemtrails - that if one assumed chemtrails didn't exist, all the evidence in support of chemtrails would still make as much sense - that is to say - it has nothing to do with chemtrails.

I think your hypothetical conversation would go like this:

Scott: Look out, Dave! A truck's coming
(Dave looks, sees truck, gets out of way)
Dave: Cheers!

Whereas if we turned the tables:

Dave: Look out, Scott! A truck's coming
(Scott looks at the truck, but somehow believes they are made of foam, even though there is no evidence for it and lots of evidence that they're made of metal)
Scott: call an ambulance. some government agency is turning foamy trucks into metal trucks in order to usher in the NWO and reptilian overlords and David Icke

I'm the one being reasonable. I'm being logical. You are being neither. You, for some bizarre reason, have this idea in your head that chemtrails exist, even though no-one has taken direct samples of a chemtrail in the air and found chemicals (which is EXACTLY the evidence required to prove they exist).

It's sad. Your grasp of logic is sad. You are willing to believe anything you want to, regardless of evidence.

reply to post by dave420


Here Here, good response.

I like foam trucks, what are you talking about. Are you saying they don't exist. Man!

I am just messin with ya. I hear all that you are saying, but I would hope in a few years after more study and proof it will be proven to be true, then I want to hear you admit you were wrong. Okee Dokee

With all the people in high places coming forward about other improtant top level issues and Government defense agencies coming clean, if there is something to chemtrails it will not be long before we know the truth.

One way or the other. Peace out

[edit on 18-11-2008 by arizonascott]

reply to post by OzWeatherman



i don't wish to get into it at the moment ,as of why this is real. but i do wish to share my opinion.ask yourself one question.....why is there no chemtrails on regular flight routes ? and what flight route do you know of that follow a tic-tack-toe pattern ? if you choose to believe , or not , thats on you. but chemtrails are real. get over it.

Just a question for all of you well informed readers out there...wtf makes this kind of trail over a residential area but didn't make a noise apparent enough for anyone to remark about what made it? Keep in mind we're used to quiet a few different types of civilian, law enforcement, and military aircraft around here & seen all kinds of con-chemtrails but none quiet like these two:





To give a bit of sense of size of them & location I was in taking the pictures from

reply to post by Shakesbeer


Just about any aircraft flying above 20,000 feet.

Did you see the contrail form? It could have blown over your area from somewhere else.
At that altitude (or higher) it would not be unusual not to hear the aircraft even if it was overhead.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by Phage]

reply to post by zorgon


If we turned the clock back 500 years ago.. I can see the skeptics in a live forum yelling there is no evidence the earth is round!!! because the church says so! that is in fact the evidence and the "conspiracy theorists" saying well ships aren't falling off the earth when they set sail... so this earth has to be round!! The church\government backers would cry arrest them!! at once!! they are all enemies of the church!! treason!!!!.thank god its not 500 years ago... I am sure you skeptics are wetting your pants with that notion.. lock up anyone that questions the any official policy... you guys would love that

Originally posted by Zepherian
Perhaps you should spend less time on the internet then and more time actually experiencing the outdoors.

Oh I spend plenty of time outdoors, and I used to work on the airport ramp which was an outside job that involved a lot of aircraft observation. I have seen persistent contrails left by my own aircraft, which I have loaded, and I therefore know for an absolute certainty that Chemtrails are nothing but a myth.

Originally posted by thefreepatriot
We all know you can post when your at work... And I doubt this is your hobbie... maybe more like a full time thing right?

I am just about sick and tired of your constant accusations as to my
being paid to do this. Cough up the proof that I am paid to post here, or STFU! The staff here has stated before that constantly calling people paid debunkers is nothing but a personal attack and against ATS's T&C....
I have stated quite clearly on ATS what my current job is, and just mentioned it in either this thread or the other one that is going on at the same time. I work in the Medical Field, and that has been vouched for by several of my fellow ATS'ers who have spent many a long evening in the chat room with me late at night when I was trying to stay awake at work.

Originally posted by thefreepatriot
Besides your WORD do you have any reference for this?

Educate yourself:

Kucinich, Chemtrails and HR 2977
One of the more pervasive myths regarding “chemtrails” is that current presidential candidate Dennis Kuchinich tried to have them banned by an act of congress, but was pressured by the government to modify the act to remove the mention of “chemtrails”.
So what really happened? In a nutshell, Kucinich did not write the bill (or read it, until too late), the focus of the bill is nothing to do with chemtrails, it was written by UFO enthusiasts trying to:
1.Nullify a vast conspiracy by the “military-industrial complex”
2.Allow the use of suppressed alien technology for free energy
3.Avoid accidentally shooting down (or scaring away) visiting aliens.
They listed a bunch of weird weapons, including mind control, tectonic weapons and (very briefly) chemtrails. The bill was re-written several time in less unusual language to give it chance of passing, but ultimately fizzled in committee.
The specific act was HR 2977, the “Space Preservation Act of 2001″, the stated goal of which was:
“To preserve the cooperative, peaceful uses of space for the benefit of all humankind by permanently prohibiting the basing of weapons in space by the United States, and to require the President to take action to adopt and implement a world treaty banning space-based weapons.”
The initial version of the act is the only one that makes mention of “exotic weapons systems”, listing several technologies that will be familiar to conspiracy theorists:
(i) electronic, psychotronic, or information weapons;
(ii) chemtrails;
(iii) high altitude ultra low frequency weapons systems;
(iv) plasma, electromagnetic, sonic, or ultrasonic weapons;
(v) laser weapons systems;
(vi) strategic, theater, tactical, or extraterrestrial weapons; and
(vii) chemical, biological, environmental, climate, or tectonic weapons.
Yes, it even includes “extraterrestrial weapons”, meaning weapons created by aliens (or created from alien technology from crashed flying saucers at Roswell), as well as psychotronic (mind control) weapons. Yet somehow “chemtrails” gets all the attention here.
Who wrote this? The original language for the bill was actually created by Alfred Webre and Carol Rosin. See, from Webre’s web site:
www.exopolitics.com...
With Dr. Carol S. Rosin and many others, [Webre] is a co-architect of the Space Preservation Act and the Space Preservation Treaty introduced to the U.S. Congress by Congressman Dennis Kucinich (D-Ohio) to ban space-based weapons.

Originally posted by Bumr055
Defcon.. you worked on a commercial plane? So chemtrails don't exist becasue your planes didn't spray and you didn't get sick? If I hear a report that a certain brand of peanut butter is tainted with something.. should I assume it's wrong if I can eat another brand without 'keeling over'?

The airport I used to work at used runways 36L&R for noise dissipation reasons, that means that all the flights approach and depart to the North. I used to live between 5 to 10 miles directly North of those runways, in the approach pattern. On cold days that area used to be blanketed with a Cirrus Blanket caused by spreading persistent contrails from those approaching and departing aircraft, the same aircraft that I used to service. They were certainly not operating Chemtrail spraying aircraft in the approach corridor of a major US airport, as it creates both a collision and visibility hazard. When I say that this stuff is coming from those same planes, believe me its an educated statement backed up with years of personal, first hand, experience.

The same old lies and misinformation for new! I wish i had the time, or at this stage the energy, but i just do not so all i can say is that chemtrails are real and that i believe them to be so. I have had my fair share of run-ins with mister oz and i can see that he has at least managed to find some new links in the last year for which i must commend him.

Either way i don't happen to believe that chemtrails are very dangerous ( if some of the contents are poisonous it's incidental) and it wouldn't make much sense either given how easily they apparently managed to get fluoride into our drinking water and toxic chemicals into our food chain. I happen to think Chemtrails are in fact a defensive NATO operation so if anything you can write to your senator ( as thousands of Americans have done btw) and ask him to send the message upstairs to make it 'safer'.

Good luck with that.....

Stellar

Originally posted by thefreepatriot
If we turned the clock back 500 years ago.. I can see the skeptics in a live forum yelling there is no evidence the earth is round!!!

That flies in the face of reality. Check it out.....even in ancient times, there was sufficient evidence the Earth was round. Zero evidence the Earth is flat.

That kind of absurdity is the typical strategies used by those who can't bring something reasoned and real to the argument.

Source :www.guardian.co.uk...
Millions were in germ war tests
Much of Britain was exposed to bacteria sprayed in secret trials

Antony Barnett, public affairs editor
Observer

Sunday April 21, 2002


The Ministry of Defence turned large parts of the country into a giant laboratory to conduct a series of secret germ warfare tests on the public.

A government report just released provides for the first time a comprehensive official history of Britain's biological weapons trials between 1940 and 1979.

Many of these tests involved releasing potentially dangerous chemicals and micro-organisms over vast swaths of the population without the public being told.

While details of some secret trials have emerged in recent years, the 60-page report reveals new information about more than 100 covert experiments.

The report reveals that military personnel were briefed to tell any 'inquisitive inquirer' the trials were part of research projects into weather and air pollution.

The tests, carried out by government scientists at Porton Down, were designed to help the MoD assess Britain's vulnerability if the Russians were to have released clouds of deadly germs over the country.

In most cases, the trials did not use biological weapons but alternatives which scientists believed would mimic germ warfare and which the MoD claimed were harmless. But families in certain areas of the country who have children with birth defects are demanding a public inquiry.

One chapter of the report, 'The Fluorescent Particle Trials', reveals how between 1955 and 1963 planes flew from north-east England to the tip of Cornwall along the south and west coasts, dropping huge amounts of zinc cadmium sulphide on the population. The chemical drifted miles inland, its fluorescence allowing the spread to be monitored. In another trial using zinc cadmium sulphide, a generator was towed along a road near Frome in Somerset where it spewed the chemical for an hour.

While the Government has insisted the chemical is safe, cadmium is recognised as a cause of lung cancer and during the Second World War was considered by the Allies as a chemical weapon.

In another chapter, 'Large Area Coverage Trials', the MoD describes how between 1961 and 1968 more than a million people along the south coast of England, from Torquay to the New Forest, were exposed to bacteria including e.coli and bacillus globigii , which mimics anthrax. These releases came from a military ship, the Icewhale, anchored off the Dorset coast, which sprayed the micro-organisms in a five to 10-mile radius.

The report also reveals details of the DICE trials in south Dorset between 1971 and 1975. These involved US and UK military scientists spraying into the air massive quantities of serratia marcescens bacteria, with an anthrax simulant and phenol.

Similar bacteria were released in 'The Sabotage Trials' between 1952 and 1964. These were tests to determine the vulnerability of large government buildings and public transport to attack. In 1956 bacteria were released on the London Underground at lunchtime along the Northern Line between Colliers Wood and Tooting Broadway. The results show that the organism dispersed about 10 miles. Similar tests were conducted in tunnels running under government buildings in Whitehall.

Experiments conducted between 1964 and 1973 involved attaching germs to the threads of spiders' webs in boxes to test how the germs would survive in different environments. These tests were carried out in a dozen locations across the country, including London's West End, Southampton and Swindon. The report also gives details of more than a dozen smaller field trials between 1968 and 1977.

In recent years, the MoD has commissioned two scientists to review the safety of these tests. Both reported that there was no risk to public health, although one suggested the elderly or people suffering from breathing illnesses may have been seriously harmed if they inhaled sufficient quantities of micro-organisms.

However, some families in areas which bore the brunt of the secret tests are convinced the experiments have led to their children suffering birth defects, physical handicaps and learning difficulties.

David Orman, an army officer from Bournemouth, is demanding a public inquiry. His wife, Janette, was born in East Lulworth in Dorset, close to where many of the trials took place. She had a miscarriage, then gave birth to a son with cerebral palsy. Janette's three sisters, also born in the village while the tests were being carried out, have also given birth to children with unexplained problems, as have a number of their neighbours.

The local health authority has denied there is a cluster, but Orman believes otherwise. He said: 'I am convinced something terrible has happened. The village was a close-knit community and to have so many birth defects over such a short space of time has to be more than coincidence.'

Successive governments have tried to keep details of the germ warfare tests secret. While reports of a number of the trials have emerged over the years through the Public Records Office, this latest MoD document - which was released to Liberal Democrat MP Norman Baker - gives the fullest official version of the biological warfare trials yet.

Baker said: 'I welcome the fact that the Government has finally released this information, but question why it has taken so long. It is unacceptable that the public were treated as guinea pigs without their knowledge, and I want to be sure that the Ministry of Defence's claims that these chemicals and bacteria used were safe is true.'

The MoD report traces the history of the UK's research into germ warfare since the Second World War when Porton Down produced five million cattle cakes filled with deadly anthrax spores which would have been dropped in Germany to kill their livestock. It also gives details of the infamous anthrax experiments on Gruinard on the Scottish coast which left the island so contaminated it could not be inhabited until the late 1980s.

The report also confirms the use of anthrax and other deadly germs on tests aboard ships in the Caribbean and off the Scottish coast during the 1950s. The document states: 'Tacit approval for simulant trials where the public might be exposed was strongly influenced by defence security considerations aimed obviously at restricting public knowledge. An important corollary to this was the need to avoid public alarm and disquiet about the vulnerability of the civil population to BW [biological warfare] attack.'

Sue Ellison, spokeswoman for Porton Down, said: 'Independent reports by eminent scientists have shown there was no danger to public health from these releases which were carried out to protect the public.

'The results from these trials_ will save lives, should the country or our forces face an attack by chemical and biological weapons.'

Asked whether such tests are still being carried out, she said: 'It is not our policy to discuss ongoing research.'

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