Real Contrail Science, why they persist and why they spread out and why they are not chemtrails

Originally posted by Zepherian

1) Thick trails that don't dissipate and actually expand into cloud cover.

Normal contrails do that. But otherwise what you say seems to make sense

Nice to know that it's unlikely there is any spraying here as all contrails comes from commercial aircraft on normal commercial air routes, though I admit I don;t go checking each and every one!

People lieing about them on the internet.

Ah, you let yourself down there

2) Because you have eyes on your face and a brain to correlate data.

How does that explain why they are visible? Maybe I didn't explain well enough. Contrails are visible because they create ice crystals which become high level clouds. Do you think whatever chemtrails are also form ice crystals? Wouldn't it make more sense for them to not form ice crystals so that they weren't visible? And, indeed, how do the chemtrails for ice crystals? There are meteorological explanations for how water vapour in hot engine exhaust forms ice crystals but what about the chemicals that aircraft are spraying (and presumably at the same time, their engines are not making persistent contrails?)

3) Ask the idiots laying them, since it's not an admitted technological endeavour and is shrouded in disinformation and lies how the hell do you honestly expect people who are denouncing the phenomenon to know what it really is?

I'm just assuming that when someone has a theory and attempts to prove that a well known phenomena is something else, they have an idea what that something else is?

What leads you to suppose a well studied phenomena isn't what those who study it say it is?

Anyway, I still think if chemtrails are real they will not be visible from the ground and I notice that none of the believers have tackled that possiblity. Not sure why, but then I'm not sure who's spreading disinfo and who's just falling for it.


btw I shall be leaving work soon and probably won't be online again much till tomorrow - whereupon no doubt this thread will have grown another 8 or 9 pages!

[edit on 18-11-2008 by Essan]

reply to post by Essan


essan , I agree it is possible chem trails are also not visible.. I tell you this you bring a sense of sanity here.. it looks like you are not completly ignoring the possibility of this occuring but are leaning on the side of it not existing.. signs of a real thinking logical,intelligent human being!

reply to post by arizonascott


THERE IS NO EVIDENCE THEY EXIST. I can't believe I have to keep writing this. There is absolutely no evidence. Those things in the sky are simple contrails, not chemtrails. Telling yourself there is evidence when there is none is willful self-delusion. It's disgraceful.

The reason I am here trying to hammer some sense into those in this thread who are ignoring perfectly sound scientific evidence in favour of some half-baked ridiculous assertions and opinions, based on nothing but ignorance and paranoia, is because I like ATS and I believe in denying ignorance.

I shouldn't have to convince anyone of anything. The evidence is right in this thread that chemtrails don't exist, and that people who believe in them are not doing so through rational thought, but because of some strange desire to think these things are real.

reply to post by thefreepatriot


You believers, who state these things are real, have yet to come up with any evidence. I've provided a link to a PDF that explains how contrails are formed, and that single PDF explains away any claims you guys have. Why are you ignoring it? It's real, sound, solid evidence. Don't insult my intelligence by saying you won't swallow anything without evidence, as that is exactly what you are doing.

I'm arguing to try to help you. You are clearly ignorant about what contrails are and how they are formed, and I'm trying to save you from ignorance.

Quite simple:

Anything is possible.

1) Planes can and do spray.
What they spray is not the question - the fact they can spray is of essence in a forum which seems to imply it is not capable...and that none of the 'contrails' you see are anything but natural occurring phenomenon.

2) Proof of concept:
I have a photo, (actually several), of a jet show in Budapest.
You can clearly see that the planes purposefully spraying lines as part of the show.
(No one there would question this at all...even have different tint of colors for some of them there.)

So...
If these spray lines at the show look just like what most people call chemtrails, how can anyone argue otherwise. Or more succinctly how can anyone be sure that what people are seeing are contrails? They look just the same as the lines in my photos which we know were indeed a spray coming out of the plane, as it was part of the show.

Now does this mean chemtrails are true?
Who knows. What it does mean is one thing...planes are indeed spraying, and the question is why. Dont worry about getting the reason right, as your guess is as good as the next...in time all will become clear.

But to say that they are all natural formations and none are sprayed...well you really cannot prove it. After all, Im sure had I not said that this was at a jet show, they would be called contrails by some 'experts' here.

Point: You may logically say that you cannot grasp why they would be doing the same as at a show on a constant basis...so they have to be contrails. No, nothing has to be. The world is much bigger than you or I.

Pic(s).

Peace

dAlen

reply to post by thefreepatriot


You are ignoring evidence. Many folks on ATS have given you clear, easy-to-understand information about contrails - how they are formed, where they are formed, the mechanisms at play - everything. What should we call an irrational person who leaps to conclusions without supporting evidence? Spraying people with chemicals from 30,000ft will do NOTHING, as no-one can determine where the chemicals would end up. They could (and indeed would) drift for many miles in any direction before settling. Heck, they could be caught in the jet stream and be blown hundreds of miles away. It's absurd. The amount of ignorance regarding basic atmospheric conditions you, and other believers, possess is staggering.

This is absolutely pathetic. Ridiculous.

reply to post by thefreepatriot


You are making the claims. You have to provide the evidence, otherwise they are just your unfounded opinion. Unlike you, rational people need to be convinced something exists through verifiable evidence. You, on the other hand, see something you don't understand, and start to attribute it to ridiculously-overcomplicated conspiracies involving all kinds of bizarre plots and ploys, all without a single shred of evidence.

As Carl Sagan said: "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence". You're making the claims yet can't give us any evidence.

That is sad.

reply to post by thefreepatriot


Crikey this is just sad. Do you know what the jet stream is, or indeed how winds work at high altitude? There's a good chance any sprayed chemicals wouldn't even hit a specific country. That's how inaccurate that method of delivery would be. That's why your ridiculously absurd claims are laughable - you are shooting yourself in the foot with every turn, yet are completely oblivious, because you know nothing about what you're talking about. Nothing.

reply to post by dave420




many folks on ats .. oh you mean the fab five So far you havent shown any proof to the contrary.. So I don't see where your getting at..

reply to post by dAlen


1. Yes, they do. But not at 30,000ft. Please show me a plane that can do that, consistently, for hours on end.

2. No, those are 'smoke', used by planes during airshows. The Red Arrows, Blue Angels, and every other display team uses them. They don't last for long, and don't turn into water vapour clouds.

It is not up to people to show that every contrail is not a chemtrail. It is up to the believers to show that even one contrail is a chemtrail. Then they'd have a case. As it is, no-one has been able to demonstrate that, which means chemtrails are not an established phenomenon.

It's illogical to believe in something that has no evidence supporting it. None.

reply to post by dave420


No, reactionary ad hoc debunking is all you have done here - no rebutal has been forthcoming, ad hominem attacks appear to be your only recourse.

You cannot just ignore the evidence presented and continue on your merry path and not be expected to be called out for it.

Debate honestly here and you have no choice but to accept chemtrails as a real phenomenon, for one because, as is buried somewhere in this thread under all your baseless attacks they are admitted.

You guys, whether you realize it or not, are just disinformants. I'm not saying anyone is paying you for it, but you're just ignoring evidence in this thread, soapboxing and trying to overwhelm people with your credentials, all flying in the face of truth.

There is not enough fluoride in the world for you guys to get away with this amount of misinformation

[edit on 18-11-2008 by TruthTellist]

reply to post by thefreepatriot


Why do you ignore the evidence I've posted. I'll post it again. Read this PDF, which shows what most kinds of contrails look like, and how they look just like the chemtrails you claim exist. It even has some maths in there to show how various types of aircraft-induced condensation are formed and dissipate.

Read that and get back to us.

Originally posted by dave420

Read that and get back to us.

Your link isn't working.

Do you even bother to check them out before posting?

Edit:

[edit on 18-11-2008 by TruthTellist]

reply to post by dave420


That is not evidence.. this is mostly theory.. It still doesn't state how they came to the conclusion that no chemicals are being seeded in the atmosphere..did they go up behind the aircraft and take samples of it? : )

Here is your proof of spraying.

www.asp.bnl.gov...



The Department of Energy's Atmospheric Science Program has as its long-term goal developing comprehensive understanding of the atmospheric processes that control the transport, transformation, and fate of energy related trace chemicals and particulate matter. The current focus of the program is aerosol radiative forcing of climate: aerosol formation and evolution and aerosol properties that affect direct and indirect influences on climate and climate change.

They spray they skies, get the # over it.

reply to post by TruthTellist


It's working for me. Grow up.

reply to post by thefreepatriot


Have YOU? Has ANYONE who thinks chemtrails exist? No. That's my entire point. Contrails are a tested phenomenon. The physics behind it is easy for anyone to understand. We know what comes out a jet engine, we know how hot the air is, we know the basic chemical reactions that happen. We know all of this. You are proposing something completely different, and have no evidence for it at all.

Your argument is completely bunk. It's childish. It's pathetic. It is devoid of any logical support. Deny ignorance - don't make it your best friend.

reply to post by dave420


"Your argument is completely bunk. It's childish. It's pathetic. It is devoid of any logical support. Deny ignorance - don't make it your best friend."

You are describing yourself - your arguments

It's childish. It's pathetic. It is entertaining.

Edit: Your link is still down, it isn't working for Zepherian either. You and your tactics are becoming to obvious. Pathetic.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by TruthTellist]

reply to post by Essan


Ok, I get what you mean now. And I can, from a speculative pov, answer you:

As you probably know by now I espouse the NWO conspiracy type worldview, ie, we have a bunch of elitist sociopathic control freaks pulling strings across a wide area of academic, cultural, economic and political endeavours. These people have a selfserving agenda, more often than not distinct from the interests of we the people.

Now, these people work by an ordo ab chaos mindset, creating false conflict, confusion, as a ways to, in the vacuum, proceed with their goals.
This is relevant to answer your question because, through compartmentalization and authoritive structures they can get people to do what they want them to do, with the caveat that they have to think they are doing something else. So, to lay down a global aerosol grid, as an example of what could possibly be happening, they have to make the people actually doing the work think they are doing something else, such as cloud seeding to fight global warming for example, and here's a link that illustrates what I am talking about: www.ted.com...

My experience with this is that reality is usually multilayered and complex, there is no simple explanations, because the people in charge have a widespectrum modus operandi based on deception, where one operation can have multiple and covert goals. It was this way with 911. It is this way with the banking credit crunch crisis. It is this way with chemtrails, which are really just a vector of attack for several different systems imo.

The above also shows, if you can accept the reasoning, and if you don't you don't reall know history do you, that occams razor dosen't really apply in anything regarding human technological interaction.

[edit on 18-11-2008 by Zepherian]

reply to post by Essan


One more reply to this post, all I mentioned about in 1) I have personally done, except the "idiot lieing on the internet" bit, which is why I know for a fact there is covert atmospheric spraying operations going on, I am not talking without experience here, and it is important for me to state this again, as I did in Oz's original debunk attempt.

When I say Chemtrails are real I know beyond any reasonable doubt, due to a verified experience that they happen. I am not theorizing, I have seen and double checked, which makes my positions on chemtrails solid, and it is also why I will indeed be harsh on the opposite position, one which I am 100% sure is false.

Why can we see chemtrails? What kind of question is that? So if a plane spraying something, it should be invisible?

Why do skywriters 'look and behave like normal contrails'

(From your guys favorite website, contrail science.

Thats not a contrail(admittedly) I see it, it persists and it's sprayed from the aircraft.

This contrail science link has loads of pictures of planes spraying different things that ARE visible, so I don't see why you would say that it shouldn't be when your favorite reference site seems to disagree.
[url=http://contrailscience.com/things-that-are-not-contrails-or-chemtrails/]http://contrailscience.com/things-that-are-not-contrails-or-chemtrails/[/ url]



More "chemtrails don't exist becasue they wouldn't efficiently kill us"? This has been addressed... No one knows what this is for(that are talking) so saying that chemtrials don't exist becasue it doesn't make my pizza taste better or kill a mosquito doesn't quite prove anything.

Just because you don't think it's properly doing what one THEORY of what they are is, doesn't mean anything except it may not be for that purpose.


Defcon.. you worked on a commercial plane? So chemtrails don't exist becasue your planes didn't spray and you didn't get sick? If I hear a report that a certain brand of peanut butter is tainted with something.. should I assume it's wrong if I can eat another brand without 'keeling over'?

Know ones saying commercial airliners are the ones causing chemtrails. If they are.. they are just converted from old commercial airliner, no passengers aboard and I doubt a single logo on the plane.

I don't see persistent contrails form commercial airplanes(haven't seen persistent contrails in awhile, almost like the conditions just kinda stopped being right.) If a see a plane with a logo and a contrail(the ones easy to see is the big red tail) the contrail is either really short or fades from the end it started to where the plane disappeared in under a minute.


Someone said something about killing a mosquito with a raid can.. Well LETS ASSUME chemtrails are to kill us. Lets put this to scale, the mesquites really small and lets say he doesn't have the ability to fly out of there (we can't)

I would say.. you could spray a raid can maybe 2 meters above it and it would likely kill it if you made a chemical 'blanket' above it, that way you woulden't need precise aiming becasue you could give or take a meter. You could probably do it easily without needing to pay a meteorologist to compensate for wind and other conditions.

If chemtrails are aimed at us, it's not suppose to be instant either so this has even less of a point.

.. Still haven't read that PDF(I will when I boot out of windows) but I'm guessing it's going to be more names game like someone assuming it is normal so they report on it as a normal and natural occurrence and come up with there own natural explanation(which is meaningless if it is not natural)

[edit on 11/18/2008 by Bumr055]