Please tell me this bible verse does not mean what I think it does!

Originally posted by paxnatus
You have to want to know God in your heart to even begin to understand.
Trying to understand who God is by intellectualizing will only leave you skeptical.

It's a shame then that God made people like myself purely intellectual, he's effectively sending me strait to hell.

Tut' dang!

reply to post by moocowman


Excellent video. I loved it. I think an agnostic view in the debate and discussion would be ideal as well.

Originally posted by Good Wolf
It's a shame then that God made people like myself purely intellectual, he's effectively sending me strait to hell.

Tut' dang!

This is something I agree with 100%. They teach you not to question God's words or works. But, if that is simply how you are...how else must you be? Your God made me this way. Am I a fun, little experiment for him? Does he find this amusing?

reply to post by The Stand


Interestingly enough, that is prophesied in the Bible.

Originally posted by sdrawkcabII

Originally posted by Good Wolf
It's a shame then that God made people like myself purely intellectual, he's effectively sending me strait to hell.

Tut' dang!

This is something I agree with 100%. They teach you not to question God's words or works. But, if that is simply how you are...how else must you be? Your God made me this way. Am I a fun, little experiment for him? Does he find this amusing?

Indeed. This ultimately was what lead me out of the church. It's not so much the fact that they tell you not to question God, because that's not often how it is, but they feel that they can tell you how to have a relationship with God.

I remember interrupting a sermon to question the pastor on why we should ultimately source our "understanding" of God from the bible when it is a human made book. Why should that be the fore gone conclusion, cos that;s not what it said in the bible. I got into an argument with my christian friends, that we should not give the benefit of the doubt to the church leaders, because if we truly are modern-day Jesus deciples/students then we should be asking questions ourselves, not being spoon fed preconceived notions. I also criticised the church for not being a place that encouraged free-thought and love for literature, science, philosophy, and just not being an intellectual place.

It all seemed ungodly and cultish.

reply to post by sdrawkcabII


Glad you liked it dude, this type of discussion only goes to prove the variety of flavours within christianity. As far as it appears to me they seem to make it up as they go along.

I also get the impression that the christian is afraid to enquire and think deeply about the serious flaws that exist within his/her belief system, such as the topic of this thread.

This is one of my favourite videos, the reason being is that it is simple to understand, does not require 10 years of biblical cranial enslaught and does not offend our sense of reason.

If there is a god then I would imagine it created the human mind, the problem is he/she forgot to tell the christians it only works when opened.




What is very sad though,is the fact that most religious people are too afraid to view it let alone think about it deeply, which they insist non beleivers do in relation to their beliefs.

Originally posted by moocowman
reply to post by The time lord

 

I really find it difficult to understand what you are saying. Mind you most non christians have the same problem, ie you obviously inderstand what your saying but it has no meaning to anyone else.

Example, you say "jesus was a jew and was sacrificed ", obviously if he was sacrificed then someone had to sacrifice him.

Now we know (according to scripture) that the jews didn't offer him up for sacrifice, and neither did the romans. We know that the plotters within the sanhedrin didn't offer him up as a sacrifice either so who exactly sacrificed this jesus character if he ever existed ?

If Jesus had an option of whether to allow himself to be executed, for his cause and was (as was more likely) buried end of. Then we could consider him as sacrificing himself not unlike any other martyr.

If however jesus allowed himself to be executed knowing that in a couple of days time he would be resurrected, what sacrifice is that exactly.

If we look at the definition of sarifice, it is to give up something precious, jesus' followers the Jews gave up nothing neither did the romans he was taken away by one by the other.

This leaves us with jesus giving up something precious himself, if he dide to exsist no more then this would surely qualify.

However, Jesus is supposed to be a god omnipotant etc etc , how is even conceivable that something that cannot and did not die could be sacrifiecied.

I know I know, Xtians will rave on about "in the flesh and all that" and do mental and vocal gymnastics around it all night long, but it will only make sense to them. Because they simply absolutely could not be wrong even if evidence climbs in bed with them and commits a rear ended sin.

Would it not be far more likely that jesus was a prophet like john the baptizer of jesus (probably his mentor ) and claiming his davidic right (allbeight through his mother), 2 of many many messiahs.


Again, outside the bible there is no evidence of Jesus. In the gospels there is more evidence for a davidic messiah trying to take on the role and usher in the kingdom of Yahwe than a god in christs clothes.

As for Jesus Evidence there is enough sources from surrounding cultures of the time to suggest he existed like written letters from Romans and other peoples. Enough evidence that the words once added up can reprodue the Gospels. Biblical evidence of places and events have been found, many books have been written about it and many more archealogical finds prove what the Bible said even though covered up by opposing believers of other faiths. There are over 300 Old Testement prophecies about how Jesus would lead his life.

Jesus was handed over as a criminal or a stirrer of society and accused of blasphamy because of what he taught and claimed to be. The Jewish crowd let go a murders and replaced him for Jesus because they were so fanitical in wanting him put on the cross. This was the transition of the Old Testemant being done away with spiritually by the Jewish crowd without knowing but Jesus did hand him self over but to let them decide his fate. A new covenant was being made as the majority of his own faith went against him because of ignorance of their own scriptures so the transition and price was made in the flesh from Adam to Jesus bloodline to bring salvation to all man not just the Jews. From Jews to Gentiles a new covenant was made but we missed out on heaven on Earth untill his second comming. Jesus did not run away from the authorities, Judus also betrayed him who was his friend and a Jew. Jesus knew his fate but let events run its course for the better outcome of mankind.

His flesh was sacrificed, we all have a spirit, body and soul so his flesh element was the carnal death. That is why throughout the Old Testement the Angels and the Devil wanted to be either part of the bloodline or wated to end mans bloodline as in the story of Noah. The whole thing backs it self up. But like faith you either believe or don't and as people around Jesus's time were heald just by touching him because of faith the same not so 100% proven faith has to be in the same light otherwise salvation through faith is lost.

What I think the verse is saying is simply this.
Numbers were most important when taking over an enemy territory so if you kill off the violent and hostile men folk and co-opt the more docile women folk (the younger/virginal the better) you gain a force multiplier in the long run where as keeping the men alive might be a force multiplier in the short run, but it can ultimately lead to revolt later on down the line.

The women will not revolt because the way their cultures back then were structured they depended on their men/husbands/brothers/uncles/sons for everything ... class, status, protection, food etc. etc.

reply to post by Good Wolf


suerly if religion encouraged free thought and investigation then the house of cards that it is would collapse within a generation or two?


Allthough you left your faith, do you still belive that there's a force in the univers/nature greater than yourself ?


Incidently a friend of mine has recently walked away from church for very much the same reason that you give. He has not lost his belief in a creative force in the universe (Neale Donald Walsch type) if anything he seems to have moved closer to this and is far easyer to communicate with.

from what i see of the churches and so called pastors etc, is that they very much operate like Amway or vica versa and other cults. They seem to go to great lengths to prevent individuals passing a certain level of knowledge , in order to keep bums on seats.


If the truth be known would not the money dry up ?

reply to post by The Stand

I will avoid longwinded speeches about the holy bible and its teachings. First the bible it self was written several 100 years ago to help the poor people believe in something other than a king. Many people look to deep into the bibles actual words. People should really be paying attention to the people who use the words of the bible to define the future.

I have an understanding that I was placed on this earth with everything I needed.
When we are born we are graced with internal feeling which guides us through life and helps us make the choices that we live with throughout our lives. I wouldn’t worry too much about what the bible says. Worry more about what people are trying to say the bible says.

Who wrote the bible? His name is Entrepreneur I. Jesus? Entreprenuer II. All the reliegions and other bibles? The children of Entrepreneur I and II.
True enlightenment can only come from within. No one but you can find it.

reply to post by moocowman


When I dropped my faith, I was forced to ask myself a question; "Why do I believe what I believe?"

I grew up in a christian environment, a typical christian environment, which means that the religion was pushed on me. I was christian before I could think.

The answer was "I believe it because I always have." yet that faith was never backed by anything so what could I do.

There is no evidence that a God exists apart from the unknown, and that is not real evidence, but there is no evidence that he does not exist either. As far as I am concerned there is no way to know, so I am atheist.

Note for those who don't know: Atheist is a person who doesn't believe that there is or is not a God. An atheist is just someone who won't make judgements without evidence and therefore, no faith (because faith is a belief in something without evidence).

If I am to believe in God, he is going to need to show up and leave evidence behind, or just in general evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.

I truly wish there was a God, like in the NT but that's not a reason to believe, after all just look at my signature.

from what i see of the churches and so called pastors etc, is that they very much operate like Amway or vica versa and other cults. They seem to go to great lengths to prevent individuals passing a certain level of knowledge , in order to keep bums on seats.


If the truth be known would not the money dry up ?

I personally try to abstain from accusing christians of this. Many of them mean well and they have other people in their hearts, they just seems to be in the dark that they simply don't need church. Most of my friends are still in church, I wish they were aware what the church does but at the end of the day they are happy with their little box, and who am I to try and break that box if they are happier "plugged into the matrix" as it were.

I respect peoples right to chose, I don't respect the church but I respect the people. .... after all, they have their uses!

[edit on 11/11/2008 by Good Wolf]

[edit on 11/11/2008 by Good Wolf]

reply to post by The time lord



A few problems with your response I'd appreciate your clarification.

No1 Based on the assumption that Jesus of the gospels was in fact a real person.

You seem to imply that the Jewish people handed him over for execution, ie the the population of Jerusalem in genral.

Why is it that the gospels quite clearly allude to the fact that allthough Jesus had some Jewish enemies, they were mainly made up of sadducean priestly aristocrats who ran the temple and were supported by a few Pharisees.

The gospels are remarkably clear in the popularity of Jesus, it claims thousands of followers who had been waiting for their Messiah their king not a god.

It was the Jewish people who were exalting Jesus not he himself, this prophet baptised by John the Baptist would have been living with his family (mother , brothers,sisters earlyer on a stepfather) in a typical very poor jewish village, and of no interest to the gentiles at this time.


I is quite clear that the romans killed jesus as a result of a plot by a few of the sanhedrin, his conviction being based on his response "I Am" to the question are you the messiah. His firther statement in relation to the Son of man ------- coming clouds of heave, is nothing more than a refernce to daniels 713 symbolically refering to Gods' people collectively.

Jesus' only reference to himself in this instance was the "Iam" clearly meaning I am Israels rightful King.

Here we have very good reason for certain priests and also herod antipas to want rid of another claim to the davidic bloodline, but the Jewish people were definately behind him all the way.



It would appear that the theology of the christian religion has done much to promote a climate of antisemetism, revolving around the death of jesus.
Common sense tells us that jesus' followers were almost wholly jewish under the yolk of rome depending on this messiah to to take the throne of israel, it is nonsense to consider these people would have what they believed their rightful king put to death.

A handful of wicked jewish priests do not make a nation of murderers, Perhaps we should look for the antichrist in Paul ,

another time

Originally posted by Buddy420
And I've seen people change their life for the better through simple meditation practices without need for the Bible and all it's dogma. The Bible and religion in general are not neccessary to have a personal relationship with GOD. The only part worth reading for anything other than a vague history lesson which for the mast part cannot be taken literally are the words spoken by Jesus.

I'm right, you're wrong, who really cares and what does it matter? Knowing GOD is everything all the little trivial details in the Bible that people like to argue about are meaningless.

The dogmas only exist among those who do not understand. I have no dogmas in my beliefs, and would be more than happy to show the meanings behind things that do not have the dogmas.

The bible isn't the only truth. It just contains truth. Even the bible says you do not need Jesus to understand these things. It says directly that if you do not hear the words of Jesus, the words you hear are those of the father(god). And that the holy spirit(truth) will show all things to you. And if you seek truth, be it meditation or whatever - then the truth will be exposed to you.

This I know to be true because that is how I learned. I didn't learn from Jesus, I learned from source. But once I learned the truth, then I could see the truth in the words of Jesus.

I'd be willing to bet that you friend would actually find many truths in the words of Jesus. Because the truth is universal.

As I said before(I think in this thread), you can sin against Jesus and you will be forgiven. It does not matter if you do not accept Jesus. However, if you sin against the holy spirit(truth) on purpose, then that is something you can not be forgiven for.

The biggest thing gets to me is how people want to push everyone into the dogmatic views of the mainstream church. When those things really do not actually make sense. These people worship the idol as truth, rather than realizing the idol merely carries the truth.

Originally posted by The Stand
After reading the bible and some other very interesting books, I have been contemplating that the bible may have been a plan to take over the world physically, mentally and spiritually. A lot of verses seem to imply harm to anybody who does not think like this god wants. Other verses I do not even want to think about because they make me sick as to think god is telling these people to do what I think he is. For example, what does this verse mean? Numbers 31:17-18 “now kill all the boys and all the women who have had sexual intercourse. Only the little girls may live; you may keep them for yourselves.”

[edit on 9-11-2008 by The Stand]

There are thousands of verses like this in the Bible, the book of horrors. This for instance - Psalms 137:9 Happy [shall he be], that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the stones.
Luke 14:26 says you must hate your mother and father and family. The Bible is just full of things that most people never read or notice.
A full list of errors and contradictions and atrocious verses can be found at this site - wheresjesus.multiply.com...
You can discuss and debate any of the Bible errors. Christians are particularly needed to try and give some answers. Unfortunately to date, very few have managed to give any kind of reasonable answer.

Very simply put, in the old testament days, only a few knew how to read an write.

lets see, a few elites with control over the laws and books. hmmm, what could possibly be corrupted by people's vices?

Meantime, in the New testament days, the book and all messages were required areas of study. Knowledge known to the masses and studied by them, eventually being written down. and kept in a book for anyone who wanted it. It was a lot harder to corrupt it.

get it?

reply to post by Good Wolf


Thanks for that reply I appreciate the time you took, it is nice to see this kind of perspective on ATS.

Many of the old curches and chapels around here are being ripped down or turned into flats, to me this is a shame as there's some superb archetecture and building materials.
An end of an era perhaps lets hope my kids can grow up in a world without religious mythology and such, allthough i'm sure a smidgen of spirituality and introspection won't hurt them.

reply to post by moocowman


Perhaps. This is something I have thought of in my years of pondering on the human condition. In general people are different, some will conform their morals and values to the society around them, and others will form there own in response to the society around them.

I don't care if someone has a religion, but it would be nice if part of that religion was not handing over money to people who don't deserve it.

reply to post by The Stand


The father of Jesus was Joseph.

Nice post and IDK. Read the paragraphs, I will give my opinion at the end.

Before we go on and try to discredit and take away what religion has to offer, allow me to share a couple facts with you.

Some thousand years ago, thousands amongst thousands of scripture were gathered to create a book. There are temples in the middle east with these thousands of cubicles protecting these (scripture meaning religous texts pertaining to factual history, before man made a bible)scriptures. There was even a point in time when the most elite priest and scribes gathered all scriptures and ones that did not have a double (transcribed scripts) were considered 'possible forgeries'. Only if knew what they were.

The point I am reaching is, these verses are actually a part of recorded history. Thousands and thousands of parchments were collected and the ones most prominent(to who? the equivilant to our government) made the final cut. Here is where your theory ties in with history. I believe someone is trying to use these scriptures for the wrong reasons. They purposely put half verses, and quotes not of there full entirety to lead people to think what they wish "God is evil" or "how can that be possible" this company infiltrated all of the most precious collections of all history in all corners of the earth. But one thing they forgot to remove right along with the truth was their 'footprints'.

I think if we were to translate some of the parchments that they derived the bible, quran, and torah from, We would have a completely different understanding of "oneness(god)" and of the world around us.

IMO it is a verse that was used by a very special "group". I dont think this is part of the practitioners guide but more of the enforcers guide. Or maybe its a part of what "someone" said, whatever it means, it is not complete enough to make a clear call.
Our greatest fear is what the real truth may mean.


All of the people here at ATS this is for you. You can discard and shun everything about religion. But understand one thing, If you really are interested in answers, questions and the ABOVE TOP SECRET, then one should know the biggest secret is the very knowledge that these religions protect. They have a reason to misinform and lie. Really do your research and do it the same way you would a UFO subject or Atlantis or whatever. Some people here can tell you anything about those subjects but they know nothing and discredit the bible, quran, christians, muslims simply for believing something you havent had the ability to grasp yet. Im only trying to say, you can tell who has actually did some research and who is speaking blindly to amuse and join the masses. It is because of YOU guys they created religion to protect the truth by spreading lies that are based on factual events. and apparently its working because most of us refuse to even do some research, you just simply eat all of the wrong fruits, "blind faith". Dont just sit back and take all of this in, ATS is notorious for independent thinking and that is exactly what this subject requires(but that doesnt discredit the life of the blind follower, in his mind all is in religion, if he is dedicated, he will find light in is line of sight)


please read sorry for typos

reply to post by Mabus


Awesomely put! I think I'm on that same page. To be a sheep or not is the question. Don't let fear rule you. Don't be afraid of the threats to burn in hell for eternity. Assuming God is real its not that black and white and he makes informed intelligent decisions based on experience and wisdom. Fight the crowd. Think independently and give in to no threats or fear. Kinda like big brother in a sense that he's just everywhere always watching us with all our technology. There is always a realistic and logical explanation to everything if we just try to figure it out and keep an open mind.